Studio set up for hi-key kids photographs

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Fulhair

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Andy
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Hi all,
I have a new baby and been getting the invitation/ads to 3 free photo sessions. Thing is that when did this for our first child the photos were in a white high key background and though nice, wasn't really wowed by them (I've seen some great shots on this forum!). Also the cost was very steep as we ended up getting some copies for the grandparents.

Long story short, though I'm sure a professional could do a great job, as an aspiring amateur I'd like to do it myself and spend the money on equipment that I could reuse as the kids grow up and for shots of family and friends.

I'm thinking of a High key (white backdrop) portable studio set up. What research I've done to date has lead me to the following set up but I'd like to see what you all think, if it's feasible for a beginner like me or there are cheaper ways: I'm happy to go with second hand stuff as long as it would be reliable.

What I already have is a 550D with a 17-50mm f2.8 lens and 50mm f1.8, a tripod and 430EX flash.

I'm thinking I'll need the following and estimating the prices based on ebay:
  • 2 studio flash heads with stands around 200Ws with brollies or softboxes; ~£200 may be Bowens or Elinchrom?
  • Lastoline Hi Lite back drop with the white train; ~£250
  • Digital Light meter; ~£100
  • Wireless triggers (Optional); £50 - 100

Please let me know your suggestions or if I'm just bonkers!:cuckoo:
 
Ok here's my comments

I'd recommend a slightly longer lens but not essential - the 50mm will be fine

The Hilite really needs 2 lights if you can buy a 3 light setup that would be better
The 6x7 hilite and train is very good.

You could probably get a second hand Sekonik meter (L308) for less tha £100.

Wireless triggers oin ebay are very cheap - You don't need expensive triggers to start with. If it fails you will have a cable but generally the ebay triggers are fairly reliable for a while.

You're certainly not bonkers. You don't even need a hilite to create beautiful baby shots. Look at this thread.

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=357748&page=25

Some great images and tips throughout.
 
EOS_JD said:
The Hilite really needs 2 lights if you can buy a 3 light setup that would be better
The 6x7 hilite and train is very good.
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I agree, really you need two heads for the Hilite (certainly a 6x7) if you want to make sure you've got an even spread of light...if you're going to use a train, that will need an addition light as well, as you'll need a light to blow out the join... Ideally, two, but you can get away with just the one on It...
 
The best value lights are the Smartflash from Lencarta. Great quality at a bargain price.

How much space do you have to work in? White background is hard to do correctly and you'll need to factor in the cost of some white reflective flooring to do it properly.
 
I use just 2 lights, one on the BG and one as a main light above my left shoulder.
For the BG, I have some polystyrene sheets (£12 for 8 from B&Q - it's insulation) and I use them to A) stop spill light hitting the subject from behind, and B) reflect some light from the single BG light which is on the right back from the left onto the BG.
Subject stays in front of these reflectors, which is far enough away from the BG to not leave shadows.

I do have to do SOME PP but if I get the lights just right, it is minimal (like a little vignetting top left, or the odd small ripple shadow in the BG. My BG is 3m wide, and ceiling height, and I have white sheets and a vinyl sheet extending 2m in front of the bG.


19-7-2012 Bethany sitting by http://bendthelight.me.uk, on Flickr
 
Of course with some photoshop work you can do it with 2 lights.

Even with three or four you probably still need to do some work on the floor.
 
EOS_JD said:
Of course with some photoshop work you can do it with 2 lights.

Even with three or four you probably still need to do some work on the floor.
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Yes, I am hoping to get another light to help even out the BG...
 
Thanks for the comments.

My thought was that the hilite would only need 2 lights where as a solid paper/fabric background would need 3 to get an even spread, hence the balancing the greater hilite cost against the cost of a 3rd strobe. Seen the lastoline promo videos where he use only one flash into the back. If I need a 3rd light I may need to reconsider the cost aspect of this as I'm already pushing what I can afford.

Any thought on the power of the strobes I'd need? Would 2 x 200W be better or 3 x 150W?

As for the Hi-lite, I've seen that the backdrop/join would not be perfect and visible but would be willing to photoshop that out in post processing.

I do like the idea of polystyrene sheets but I need this to be portable and easy to store. The greatest concern with polystyrene is that it would be fragile, fragement and one of the childern could eat it.

I have looked at the Lencarta and think they look good but 2 new Smartflashes start from £300 with 3 heads at £490 which is out of my proce range. Been looking but they never seem to come up second hand!
 
Fulhair said:
Thanks for the comments.

My thought was that the hilite would only need 2 lights where as a solid paper/fabric background would need 3 to get an even spread, hence the balancing the greater hilite cost against the cost of a 3rd strobe. Seen the lastoline promo videos where he use only one flash into the back. If I need a 3rd light I may need to reconsider the cost aspect of this as I'm already pushing what I can afford.
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Regardless of what you may have seen in promo videos, the Hi-Lite really needs 2 lights - unless you really want to use just one light and turn the power up high enough to light the 'dark side', with the result that the 'bright side' will be seriously overexposed, leading to flare and loss of edge detail.

Any thought on the power of the strobes I'd need? Would 2 x 200W be better or 3 x 150W?
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The power really isn't important.

As for the Hi-lite, I've seen that the backdrop/join would not be perfect and visible but would be willing to photoshop that out in post processing.
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There will always be a need for PP where there is a join

I do like the idea of polystyrene sheets but I need this to be portable and easy to store. The greatest concern with polystyrene is that it would be fragile, fragement and one of the childern could eat it.
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You're right

I have looked at the Lencarta and think they look good but 2 new Smartflashes start from £300 with 3 heads at £490 which is out of my proce range. Been looking but they never seem to come up second hand!
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That's academic anyway as the Lencarta SmartFlash is currently out of stock. But there are still a few refurbished ones available with full warranty for £83.99 each, but when they're gone they're gone...
 
The polystyrene I use is 4ft by 2ft, and I have 2 taped together to form an angle. I then have one side white and the other covered in black-wrap foil, so I have reflector or non-reflective depending which way I have it. It is quite portable, but yes, it's a cheap option and can get fragile. I try not to let the kids eat it, but occasionally one of them is so hungry...

Only reason I mention it is because I am doing things as cheaply as I can and trying to get good results...it is always my intention when money allows to spend more and upgrade to kit that was actually designed for the job! :)

You have some great advisors chipping in here anyway...so you will get it sorted one way or the other. ;)
 
Garry Edwards said:
That's academic anyway as the Lencarta SmartFlash is currently out of stock.
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Noticed they'd been out of stock for a while now... Popular item!!!

Going back to my original idea, I'm thinking that the Hi-lite is now not really an option on my budget.

So assuming a 2 or 3 strobe lights - may have to get 2 then save for a 3rd. What would anyone recommend for a backdrop set up and what kind of reflectors/brollies/softboxes combo to get with it?

Or given my lack of experience with any studio equipment should I consider a different approach and look to get 'hands on' before. Thinking there are so many ways I could go wrong on this without guidance.

Was hoping to get some practical expereince from the Warrington meet this week but that was cancelled :'(
 
EOS_JD said:
Unless you use an additional light or two to blow that join out :)
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I can vouch for that... Lighting the floor correctly will blow out the seam.
 
Fulhair said:
Or given my lack of experience with any studio equipment should I consider a different approach and look to get 'hands on' before. Thinking there are so many ways I could go wrong on this without guidance.

Was hoping to get some practical expereince from the Warrington meet this week but that was cancelled :'(
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Well, I'm running a Lencarta lighting workshop on Sunday 29th, not exactly far away from you...
Unless you use an additional light or two to blow that join out
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Agreed, but there are budget limitations here
 
Garry Edwards said:
Well, I'm running a Lencarta lighting workshop on Sunday 29th, not exactly far away from you...
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Hmmm. Interesting... will need a 'careful sell' to the Mrs given the subject matter. Understand you may not run more in the future and covers the technical aspects, but do you run ones more suiting to photographing young children or can we cover of some aspect of this in this workshop.

Mentioned my interest in studio photography to my mates down the pub a few weeks ago and they instantly jumped to the conclusion this was for smutty photography I was a branded a perv. :naughty:
 
Fulhair said:
Hmmm. Interesting... will need a 'careful sell' to the Mrs given the subject matter. Understand you may not run more in the future and covers the technical aspects, but do you run ones more suiting to photographing young children or can we cover of some aspect of this in this workshop.

Mentioned my interest in studio photography to my mates down the pub a few weeks ago and they instantly jumped to the conclusion this was for smutty photography I was a branded a perv. :naughty:
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Just explain to your boss that artistic nude is an ideal learning medium because it helps us to learn how to use light and shadow creatively, without clothes getting in the way of the light - just like lighting the face, which we also spend a lot of time on, but covering a larger area. There is absolutely no sexual content. Just ask her to ring me if it will help, come to that she can ring the model too if she likes.

I did plan some portrait/fashion workshops for this year too, but it all went a bit wrong because of my health problems, I hope to be able to schedule one later in the year but that isn't certain yet. The learning process on portrait/fashion is certainly more complex.

I don't do any related to photographing young children - too complicated to arrange, there are strict regulations in force when using children as paid models, they get far too tired to do a full day of modelling (regulations excepted) and the subject is just far too easy anyway, it's much better to learn on more difficult subjects.

Actually, the best learning medium is probably still life, but there just isn't the interest in it - most people want to learn how to photograph people.

As for your mates, just get some new mates:lol:
 
Garry Edwards said:
Just explain to your boss that artistic nude is an ideal learning medium because it helps us to learn how to use light and shadow creatively, without clothes getting in the way of the light - just like lighting the face, which we also spend a lot of time on, but covering a larger area. There is absolutely no sexual content. Just ask her to ring me if it will help, come to that she can ring the model too if she likes.
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Read her verbatim what you said and though dubious of the logic - 'Since most people wear clothes for portrait, wouldn't you want to know how to work with that?" Anyway she's letting me come so will see you Sunday.

Garry Edwards said:
I don't do any related to photographing young children - too complicated to arrange, there are strict regulations in force when using children as paid models, they get far too tired to do a full day of modelling (regulations excepted) and the subject is just far too easy anyway, it's much better to learn on more difficult subjects.

Actually, the best learning medium is probably still life, but there just isn't the interest in it - most people want to learn how to photograph people.
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Wasn't proposing getting an actual child, I've first-hand experience of how precocious they can be. Was think more around the differences from shooting adults: e.g. Shooting closer to the floor level. Would be happy dealing with a static subject such as a small mannequin or soft toy to get the hang of things.
 
Fulhair said:
Read her verbatim what you said and though dubious of the logic - 'Since most people wear clothes for portrait, wouldn't you want to know how to work with that?" Anyway she's letting me come so will see you Sunday.
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As you'll find out, we'll be taking photos of her (head & shoulder)wearing clothes - but the clothes will be secondary, the primary object will be to light her face creatively.

And where there are no clothes, there is nothing to spoil the natural lines, this allows us to learn how to use light creatively and that skill then translates to all other subjects. Basically we light the shape, not show the detail. My take on it is that there's no need to show the details, (hopefully) all of us know what a woman looks like:) Trust me, you will be able to show her the photos...
Fulhair said:
Wasn't proposing getting an actual child, I've first-hand experience of how precocious they can be. Was think more around the differences from shooting adults: e.g. Shooting closer to the floor level. Would be happy dealing with a static subject such as a small mannequin or soft toy to get the hang of things.
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Well, camera height is one of the most important factors because it defines the 'value' of a subject, in that a looking down shot makes the subject look submissive and unimportant, a looking up shot makes them look dominant and important - hence the jargon term 'Heroic'. This again applies to literally any subject.

Only one more vacancy is left now.
 
I find the above a fairly shallow excuse to take photos of nudie women.

If it was the real reason then you'd also hire a male model under the same pretence - at the very least some of the time. Fact is, a male model would probably allow a better study of lighting.

The problem is your course would be then be empty.

I have no issue with nudie pictures, but dressing them up (pardon the pun) as anything else is tedious.
 
Matt989 said:
I find the above a fairly shallow excuse to take photos of nudie women.

If it was the real reason then you'd also hire a male model under the same pretence - at the very least some of the time. Fact is, a male model would probably allow a better study of lighting.

The problem is your course would be then be empty.

I have no issue with nudie pictures, but dressing them up (pardon the pun) as anything else is tedious.
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Sorry, but that's just nonsense.

  1. There are a lot of female art nude models but very few male equivalents, which makes the cost prohibitive
  2. There would be no learning advantage to photographing male models, different shapes, different muscle structure, different opportunities yes, better (or worse) - no.
  3. In my experience, female models tend to be far more reliable, far less likely to fail to turn up. And that isn't just my experience, any model agency will tell you exactly the same thing.
 
Matt989 said:
Call my opinion what you may, to me it remains a tool to sell spaces on your course.
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You're entitled to your opinion, but perhaps you should give some thought to the realities

  1. We also host fully clothed lighting workshops
  2. It's very unusual for one of these lighting workshops not to be fully filled, regardless of whether it's portrait/fashion or art nude, so the income, such as it is, is the same
  3. These lighting workshops aren't run for profit, they are subsidised
  4. The art nude model charges more than the clothed model
 
Garry Edwards said:
You're entitled to your opinion, but perhaps you should give some thought to the realities


[*]We also host fully clothed lighting workshops

[*]It's very unusual for one of these lighting workshops not to be fully filled, regardless of whether it's portrait/fashion or art nude, so the income, such as it is, is the same

[*]These lighting workshops aren't run for profit, they are subsidised

[*]The art nude model charges more than the clothed model
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These points are largely irrelevant, my point is to do with the BS surrounding the way they are marketed.

Your point about the workshops being subsidised is an interesting one though.

Maybe I'm just cynical.
 
Sorry but yes, you are just cynical. You clearly don't know me and you don't know much about Lencarta.

We do quite a lot of things which, although they may have a long term marketing benefit, are either totally free or subsidised. It basically involves giving something - usually knowledge and expertise - back to the community.

As an example, as soon as details are finalised there will be an open invitation to TP members (and anyone else who wants to join in) to take part in an outdoor fashion shoot that we're arranging.

The people who attend will be expected to help out if asked with carrying things, holding reflectors etc but all that it will actually cost them is the fuel needed to get them there. In return they can take photos themselves and, more importantly, will be able to see exactly what's involved in this type of shoot, in terms of logistics, organisation, model, MUA, photography and lighting, which has to be much better than just reading about it or watching a Youtube vid of the finished result.
 
I must say, I feel for you Garry. It seems that whatever thread you participate in here on TP, there's always someone who has a go at you, for whatever reason and you end up having to defend your statements.

As an outsider looking in, I've never felt there's anything "wrong" with your posts or the services you offer, or the way your promote them, yet some people just seem intent on stirring things up, unjustifiably imo :cuckoo:

Darren
 
Its not a personal attack, just a general comment about using the flimsy guise of art and learning for taking nudie pictures of good looking girls.

For the record I use Lencarta strobes and for the money, they're not bad.

My cynicism only extends to the type of training offered, the subsidised training is clever and commendable.
 
Having recently taken up studio photography, I have learnt far more about lighting by shooting nudes / lingerie models than clothed.

Reflective skin makes you think so much more about light control and how it behaves.

Gary has brought something positive to this thread as he does with many others (whilst making no secret of the fact of his association with Lencarta). What has Matt989 brought to the thread apart from argument?
 
Mondo74 said:
Having recently taken up studio photography, I have learnt far more about lighting by shooting nudes / lingerie models than clothed.

Reflective skin makes you think so much more about light control and how it behaves.

Gary has brought something positive to this thread as he does with many others (whilst making no secret of the fact of his association with Lencarta). What has Matt989 brought to the thread apart from argument?
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Discussion?

Is that not what forums are for?
 
Yes - however perhaps we should be discussing Studio setups for high-key kids photography as per the OPs intension rather than being accusatory towards someone who has taken the time to add something constructive. Anyway - I'm not going to clog up the thread any further with what will inevitably turn into a bun fight so I will bow out with grace and follow what was until now a good thread.
 
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