Studio Lighting - getting in right in camera

donkeymusic said:
just getting my head round this as i read, if the light is up high and aimed towards the floor, then i would need possibly a brolly attachment? would this work in the same way as a fill light?

i would be stood in front of this light, would i cast any shadow or would it be minimal due to the height and distance?
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Brolly behind you would also light the subject. And since it's closer it would light the subject more.

I really should invent white acrylic flooring with internal flash tubes.
 
donkeymusic said:
just getting my head round this as i read, if the light is up high and aimed towards the floor, then i would need possibly a brolly attachment? would this work in the same way as a fill light?

i would be stood in front of this light, would i cast any shadow or would it be minimal due to the height and distance?
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With respect Carlo, it seems like a lot of your problems are down to lack of basic understanding how light works. The inverse square law is absolutely fundamental to studio lighting - double the distance, one quarter the light, or two stops down..

Simply this. If the light is 1m from the subject and reads say f/8, then at 1m behind them it will read f/16. Move the light back to 4m and set the brightness to f/8 again, now at 1m behind the subject the light fall off will be much less, about half a stop rather than two stops.
 
Background reflector. Or Correx if you don't have one spare.

More to stop light going where you don't than sending it where you do.
 
i use 2 lights with bounce umbrella on my 2.7m wide backdrop, i adjust me iso until i get even blinkies on the backdrop but never go above iso 400 to get a nice even white backdrop with minimal light hitting my subjects. i aim my lights to each corner of the backdrop, so left light towards right corner right light aimed at left corner (As garry suggested)

if space is very limited and i have to have my subjects closer to the backdrop, i use my strobes with standard reflectors and shield them with 1x2 foot pieces of cardboard velcroed to the reflector. Because i have my lights turned down low and iso up higher i dont get so much flare. and my recycle time is faster too.

374960_240386852756105_657400756_n.jpg
 
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DannyDMR said:
Because i have my lights turned down low and iso up higher i dont get so much flare. and my recycle time is faster too.
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The power of the lights and the ISO setting have no effect on flare - turning down one and turning up the other to compensate achieves nothing.

Flare is directly related to the amount of light hitting the lens - if the light is angled so that it doesn't hit the lens then there is no problem. The easiest way of doing this is to use a decent lens hood (not the type normally supplied with zoom lenses, which are pretty useless).

There are other factors too. A filter attached to the front of the lens will increase the risk of flare. A zoom lens will tend to flare more readily than a prime lens. A good lens will flare less than a poor one. Severe overexposure (white background that has been overlit or getting the sun in the picture will make the problem much worse.
 
Garry's right, though flare is down to relative brightness. Eg, shoot a car with headlights blazing at night and you'll get horrendous flare, but the same shot in bright daylight and you'd hardly know the headlights were on.

Couple of tricks I learned a long time ago. At college we'd keep a few big pieces of black backgound paper, rather than throw them away. Then gaffa tape them to a white background over all areas outside the actual image area, makes a huge difference to flare, and reduces wrap as well.

Another way is to use screens, as in this set-up shot of Zak Arias' studio (the bi-fold doors as he calls them) http://www.zarias.com/white-seamless-tutorial-part-1-gear-space/ Or, use those big white poly boards, for home insulation I think. Every studio should have a couple of those, one side painted black, and they make brilliant screens, reflectors, black reflectors etc. Position them camera-side of the subject to reduce flare, or behind the subject they will both reduce flare and also control wrap.

Edit: polystyrene boards from Wickes, perfect, dead cheap http://www.wickes.co.uk/polystyrene-25mmx600x24m/invt/210801/
 
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And duct tape makes an ideal hinge for joining the pieces together
 
Sorry was referring to the light hitting the backdrop and reflecting back onto the subject not lens flare don't have that issue thankfully
 
Danny, it was lens flare in the bear that I saw I thought? Flare causes a loss in contrast - you don't always see it as circle patterns.
 
Ah sorry thought u were referring to my post lol been a long day

Will have to re look at some of my shoots didn't know lens flare caused lack of contrast so thanks for that info must read up on it
 
DannyDMR said:
Ah sorry thought u were referring to my post lol been a long day

Will have to re look at some of my shoots didn't know lens flare caused lack of contrast so thanks for that info must read up on it
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It's just like a wash of light causing a little loss of contrast - Can usually be fixed in PP but changing the angle of the background lights and lowering the output to the correct exposure should help.
 
I have extended my floor to allow for a change in lighting, need hardboard to put down under paper backdrop, this now extends to 6 metres.

I have brought the flash heads with umbrellas forward and aimed them across the backdrop,and because of this angle of their positions there is spill from the brollys so i have put in two boards to block this.

I have attached the photo below for advice, the backdrop is only lit with the modelling light on lowest setting, does it look more evenly lit? i now have section on the floor centrally where the brollys spill reaches, any advice on this would be good?


photo by Carlo Mullen, on Flickr

Thanks
 
donkeymusic said:
I have extended my floor to allow for a change in lighting, need hardboard to put down under paper backdrop, this now extends to 6 metres.

I have brought the flash heads with umbrellas forward and aimed them across the backdrop,and because of this angle of their positions there is spill from the brollys so i have put in two boards to block this.

I have attached the photo below for advice, the backdrop is only lit with the modelling light on lowest setting, does it look more evenly lit? i now have section on the floor centrally where the brollys spill reaches, any advice on this would be good?

<snip>

Thanks
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Easiest way to check even background lighting is with blinkies. Just shoot with exposure set so it's close to the blinkies threshold and work around that point. They will show the exact exposure pattern, and relative brightness levels.

Work with one light at a time, so you get to know exactly what each is doing.
 
Ok,

I have been back to play with my setup and results are below.

1- with the blinkies and set at f11, the backdrop looked evenly lit

backdrop-1 by Carlo Mullen, on Flickr

2- teddy at the back was being lit by the brollies

backdrop-2 by Carlo Mullen, on Flickr

3- bringing the teddy forward the spill reduces and the teddy is in shadow as no front light

backdrop-3 by Carlo Mullen, on Flickr

4- teddy is now getting no spill from brollies and now needs front light

backdrop-4 by Carlo Mullen, on Flickr

5- just the font light and subject appears to be exposed correctly at F8?

backdrop-5 by Carlo Mullen, on Flickr

6- with background at F11 and subject at F8 it looked like i was getting wrap, when re-metered subject was showing F11

backdrop-6 by Carlo Mullen, on Flickr

on the camera everything looked fine and did think it was fine in camera and would reduce the amount of editing, although it was close enough to allow for quick edits, well quicker than before.

The foreground does still look grey but not used the fourth light yet, so will be set up to improve that and background appears to have a tint of orange so gonna recheck white balance.

what are your views on the setup?

thanks
 
It's awash with flare. You're not using the screens to block off unused areas of background.
 
HoppyUK said:
It's awash with flare. You're not using the screens to block off unused areas of background.
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i used the screens to stop the light from spilling forward onto the subject, how should i be doing this?

the backdrop still meters at f11 which is what i was aiming for
 
donkeymusic said:
i used the screens to stop the light from spilling forward onto the subject, how should i be doing this?

the backdrop still meters at f11 which is what i was aiming for
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See post #50.

Edit: wrap is light from the background shining on the sides of the subject. Flare is caused by bright light entering the lens. Sometimes that can't be helped, but here you've got acres of very bright background, way outside the main subject area, blasting straight at the camera. Screen it off.
 
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i thought the screen were blocking off the flare as none of this light was hitting the camera
 
i think post 58 shows the range the light is reaching from the brolly, not sue how i can screen this off other than closing the brolly which then gave me an un even background
 
i think i need to move my screen round more

just looking at the zarias blog, and the screens are used to stop light hitting the subject. I have moved the subject a few metres forward and used the screens to stop the light coming in the direction which is effectively what zarias does
 
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ive tried closing the brolly to reduce the area the light covers, however for it not cover most of the surrounding area around the backdrop i am nearly have it closed completely.
 
(partially) closing the umbrella isn't the right approach.
You need physical flags (black cardboard or similar boards) to reduce the size of the background to what it NEEDS to be. i.e., it needs to be reduced in effective width so that it is only a little wider than the subject, AS SEEN BY THE LENS.

Obviously 'as seen by the lens' will be affected by the angle of view of your lens, so it's a product of perspective as well as being affected by the physical width of the subject.
 
donkeymusic said:
I do understand the relevance of the distance between background and subject, what i am just trying to get my head round is how this would be suited for shoots with children running around. i dont want them moving too far to the left and right so that they are cut in half by the edge of the paper, i guess this is something that i will need to test.
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I've been following this with great interest but a little confused as usual.

You seem to be getting advice about photographing the bear, not kids in motion. With any of the shots you have posted, the bear or the kids, will pick up different light intensity in each spot they move to because you are unable to light the backgrounds and floor evenly with your four lights.

Your are trying to photograph children 'running around and playing', so you won't be carefully aiming light at them individually, they will have to be moving about within a 'perfectly lit' space as opposed being perfectly lit themselves in a space. I can't see how that can be done, they will be moving through any light aimed at any surface or reflector, which is uneven at best.

Seems to me you would be better to try and create a sort of giant shadow-less area sort of like a giant light tent with light coming through the back and sides, thrown back down from the top with reflection onto the floor.
Once that bits done, it's done, like a sort of giant light tent type of special set. You could then do whatever you want with light from the front aimed into this space to pick out the kids that are then moving 'through' perfect lighting as opposed to being randomly lit in a an unevenly lit area.
Is that arse about face or am I blundering onto the right track.
 
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Steve T said:
I've been following this with great interest but a little confused as usual.

You seem to be getting advice about photographing the bear, not kids in motion. With any of the shots you have posted, the bear or the kids, will pick up different light intensity in each spot they move to because you are unable to light the backgrounds and floor evenly with your four lights.

Your are trying to photograph children 'running around and playing', so you won't be carefully aiming light at them individually, they will have to be moving about within a 'perfectly lit' space as opposed being perfectly lit themselves in a space. I can't see how that can be done, they will be moving through any light aimed at any surface or reflector, which is uneven at best.

Seems to me you would be better to try and create a sort of giant shadow-less area sort of like a giant light tent with light coming through the back and sides, thrown back down from the top with reflection onto the floor.
Once that bits done, it's done, like a sort of giant light tent type of special set. You could then do whatever you want with light from the front aimed into this space to pick out the kids that are then moving 'through' perfect lighting as opposed to being randomly lit in a an unevenly lit area.
Is that arse about face or am I blundering onto the right track.
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More the former I'm afraid. The problem with white backgrounds is they have to be over-exposed and blown to get them pure white. That's not easy to do properly, but it can be done as it's possible to light the background and foreground/subject separately.

You can't do that with the train because the subject is standing/sitting on it, making a difficult problem impossible to resolve without some compromise. The usual solution is to get the lighting as close as possible, then finish off with some mopping up of the inevitable grey bits in post processing.

DM's problem is that he hasn't got the first bit right yet, and doesn't seem to be applying the good advice that's been given.
 
HoppyUK said:
More the former I'm afraid. The problem with white backgrounds is they have to be over-exposed and blown to get them pure white. That's not easy to do properly, but it can be done as it's possible to light the background and foreground/subject separately.

You can't do that with the train because the subject is standing/sitting on it, making a difficult problem impossible to resolve without some compromise. The usual solution is to get the lighting as close as possible, then finish off with some mopping up of the inevitable grey bits in post processing.

DM's problem is that he hasn't got the first bit right yet, and doesn't seem to be applying the good advice that's been given.
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I'm am trying to follow the advice given and it's much appreciated.

I do have flags in place but which are stopping g light hitting the lens, which I thought was correct but you said I was getting too much flare, even thoug it's all metering correctly for a white background
 
donkeymusic said:
I'm am trying to follow the advice given and it's much appreciated.

I do have flags in place but which are stopping g light hitting the lens, which I thought was correct but you said I was getting too much flare, even thoug it's all metering correctly for a white background
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Yes, I know you are Carlo. But the light that is hitting the lens and causing flare is coming off the background. That's why you must screen it off or flag it in some way to reduce it as best you can, leaving just a small area of white around the subject.

For the same reason, using any more light on the background than you need, ie making it just blown 0.5-1 stop max, is crucial. Otherwise you get flare and the background will eat away at the subject outline and bleach the edges - probably the most common error.

You also need to understand the difference between flare and wrap. Flare is always bad, wrap is more subjective. You can control wrap by moving the subject forwards/backwards, and also with flags and screens - as per my previous post.
 
Just a little observation Carlo, if you lift those blocking screens up off the floor the light will spill under them and that grey area on the floor will vanish.
 
Steve T said:
Just a little observation Carlo, if you lift those blocking screens up off the floor the light will spill under them and that grey area on the floor will vanish.
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possibly, could try that, they were taller and i cut them down
 
HoppyUK said:
You also need to understand the difference between flare and wrap. Flare is always bad, wrap is more subjective. You can control wrap by moving the subject forwards/backwards, and also with flags and screens - as per my previous post.
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Until now, I didnt realise they were different.

Reading your advise, i still cant get my head around controlling the flare
 
donkeymusic said:
Until now, I didnt realise they were different.

Reading your advise, i still cant get my head around controlling the flare
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Well, now you do:) So you now know that you can control wrap by a combination of moving the subject further from the background and masking off the parts of the background that aren't needed, to make it effectively smaller.

Flare is caused by unwanted light bouncing around inside the lens. A good lens hood can help (lens hoods typically supplied with zoom lenses are pretty useless)
Reducing the brightness of the light on the background helps (as Richard earlier pointed out, it's relative brightness that matters, not actual brightness)
Using a high quality lens helps
Using a prime lens helps - zoom lenses tend to have more glass surfaces for the light to bounce around from
Using a perfectly clean lens helps
Not using a filter on the lens helps
 
donkeymusic said:
Until now, I didnt realise they were different.

Reading your advise, i still cant get my head around controlling the flare
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Carlo, I've mentioned flare and wrap at least three times in this thread, and how to control them, so either you have not read or not understood my posts.

Have another read and if there's anything you're not clear about then please shout. We'll get you there somehow :)
 
Garry Edwards said:
Not using a filter on the lens helps
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Of all Garry's suggestions the lens filter is one that had me kicking myself.

Poor light control was my big error when I first started, I was so bothered about making my background perfect white I failed to see the flare it was causing. Once I had cracked that the remainder of the flare disappeared when I removed the filter (it wasn't a cheap one either).

I actually like a little light wrap (others don't). I use a lastolite hilite and have the subject stood fairy close, I feel it helps the subject look less like they've been 'cut and paste' onto white
 
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