Students know everything

Tokkelossi

Tokkelossi

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Tom
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about their camera ...... but

I seem to be getting more and more students with high end dslr's coming to me for tuition. They can tell me everything about the kit. More then i even bother to find out.

They can explain flash sync, curtain, strobe. All the tech stuff a robot would need and yet most cant tell me the difference between shutter & aperture and relation to exposure etc.

Few know what the DOF scale on a lens is all about and not many know how to use full manual on everything.

Now I know thats why they are booking me but why do you think they love the tech side, numbers, electrics etc and not the basic stuff that gets the shot?

Its very odd. I dont mind because it is paying for my boat :lol: but i just get a bit miffed. Its all out there on google, here or in book shops.

Is it a case of "the camera is good so i will be good". When i ask them they seem to assume they will get good photos from power up. No thought that they may have to learn a little.

Anyone else seen this?
 
Couriously I'm finding the opposite, I'm finding more and more students without a clue about the cameras. maybe it's an area thing?
 
Sounds to me like the first "expert" they're coming into contact with is the person who sold them the camera.
 
They see shots taken by other people of thier favourite band etc.. They do a bit of research online, and here for example. "How do I get that nightclub shot with all the blurry lights" They get told how, they do a bit more research online and go out and buy the camera that the pictures they like were taken with, expecting to get the same results out of the bag. Of course they know the terminology, they know they need 2nd curtain flash as they were directly told that, but when it comes to actually doing it and mixing the terminolgy with actual settings, they wont have a clue.

Good business for you though, so just be happy there are loat of kids around with a lot of disposable income!
 
Bit like everything technology related - overclocking PCs is a prime example. Lots of people know what to change to make something faster but other than perhaps know what the acronym stands for, dont have a clue what they are actually modifying.

If its keeping you in the matter to which you are accustomed then its not a bad thing :)
 
Tokkelossi said:
Is it a case of "the camera is good so i will be good". When i ask them they seem to assume they will get good photos from power up. No thought that they may have to learn a little.

Anyone else seen this?
Click to expand...

We have this a lot, and not just students, they assume that they have bought photographic ability along with the camera. So many times we hear "my pictures are good because my camera cost £000000"

Joan
 
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Tokkelossi said:
about their camera ...... but

I seem to be getting more and more students with high end dslr's coming to me for tuition. They can tell me everything about the kit. More then i even bother to find out.

They can explain flash sync, curtain, strobe. All the tech stuff a robot would need and yet most cant tell me the difference between shutter & aperture and relation to exposure etc.

Few know what the DOF scale on a lens is all about and not many know how to use full manual on everything.

Now I know thats why they are booking me but why do you think they love the tech side, numbers, electrics etc and not the basic stuff that gets the shot?

Its very odd. I dont mind because it is paying for my boat :lol: but i just get a bit miffed. Its all out there on google, here or in book shops.

Is it a case of "the camera is good so i will be good". When i ask them they seem to assume they will get good photos from power up. No thought that they may have to learn a little.

Anyone else seen this?
Click to expand...

A cynic might suggest that it's all down to the perpetual marketing blurb. Manufacturers are always throwing numbers and technobabble around, bragging about "faster" at this and "better" that. Many people find it hard to ignore and they're soon hooked on the "science" rather than the photography.

Could it all overcrowd the youngsters minds and push the photography bit out?
 
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I thought my camera was a 1.6 crop.. turns out its 1.3 .. did i know? did i care? I bet theres lots of other number things I dont know... I know its black in color :)
 
There have been a few camera adverts on tv of late and Canon were pushing hard not long ago with their skateboard and rock climber on a wall magazine adds.

I think ZoneV may have a point about the marketing. However, we are talking the basics. Even if you get a flash car, you know where the gears and clutch are....... oh .... or do they buy fully auto flappy paddle?

Im also looking at some students coming out of hahahahaha Uni hahahaha .... in my day the Tech .... and i find they have been lied to. No way can they walk out the door and into making money with what they have been taught. Its so sad because I can see they have the want .... just not the wisdom. What the hell are we doing to our students.

Every year I take on a few young togs to help out with music festivals. Normally over 3/4 days. Most dont last one because its not what they expected ..... lots of walking, hours, work with no sleep or food.

Seems we need a course on the real world of togs and making money. The sad thing is, its not them. its us .... or the system thats supposed to teach them.

Time for the private TalkPhotography Uni? only 30k a year :)
 
Strange that many people think that just because they have a top end DSLR, they are automatically going to be producing world beating photographs.

I bet the same people don't go out and buy a top of the range Fender guitar and expect to be the next Jimmy Hendrix (or perhaps they do?)
 
I tried my mates top of the range snooker cue... i still couldnt pot a ball :)
 
Tokkelossi said:
There have been a few camera adverts on tv of late and Canon were pushing hard not long ago with their skateboard and rock climber on a wall magazine adds.

I think ZoneV may have a point about the marketing. However, we are talking the basics. Even if you get a flash car, you know where the gears and clutch are....... oh .... or do they buy fully auto flappy paddle?

Im also looking at some students coming out of hahahahaha Uni hahahaha .... in my day the Tech .... and i find they have been lied to. No way can they walk out the door and into making money with what they have been taught. Its so sad because I can see they have the want .... just not the wisdom. What the hell are we doing to our students.

Every year I take on a few young togs to help out with music festivals. Normally over 3/4 days. Most dont last one because its not what they expected ..... lots of walking, hours, work with no sleep or food.

Seems we need a course on the real world of togs and making money. The sad thing is, its not them. its us .... or the system thats supposed to teach them.

Time for the private TalkPhotography Uni? only 30k a year :)
Click to expand...

How about a 40 year old student ?lol :)
 
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Scarecrow said:
I bet the same people don't go out and buy a top of the range Fender guitar and expect to be the next Jimmy Hendrix (or perhaps they do?)
Click to expand...

They do... :bang:
 
Scarecrow said:
Strange that many people think that just because they have a top end DSLR, they are automatically going to be producing world beating photographs.

I bet the same people don't go out and buy a top of the range Fender guitar and expect to be the next Jimmy Hendrix (or perhaps they do?)
Click to expand...

Sure they do - it's where the saying "all the gear and no idea" comes from.

If you just assume university is a breeding ground for statistics to meet government targets, you won't be disappointed or surprised.
 
Scarecrow said:
Strange that many people think that just because they have a top end DSLR, they are automatically going to be producing world beating photographs.

I bet the same people don't go out and buy a top of the range Fender guitar and expect to be the next Jimmy Hendrix (or perhaps they do?)
Click to expand...


You hear it all the time people say wow nice camera, bet it takes great pictures. It they see an image they like and say, wow they must have a good camera.

The spec thing is weird. I think its down to marketing, people will get excited about cardboard packaging if you quote specs about the tensile strength of the materials and how many microns of nano bond are retaining structural integrity. LOL.

When you go to uni half the theory you learn is useless when it comes to how people actually work. Unless you design lenses for a living you don't actually need to know much about them to get them to work. Which end goes on the camera should be enough to get most people going ;)
 
lensflair said:
You hear it all the time people say wow nice camera, bet it takes great pictures. It they see an image they like and say, wow they must have a good camera.

The spec thing is weird. I think its down to marketing, people will get excited about cardboard packaging if you quote specs about the tensile strength of the materials and how many microns of nano bond are retaining structural integrity. LOL.

When you go to uni half the theory you learn is useless when it comes to how people actually work. Unless you design lenses for a living you don't actually need to know much about them to get them to work. Which end goes on the camera should be enough to get most people going ;)
Click to expand...

i had this experience yesterday with a friend i hadn't seen in a while. i was holding a gripped 30d with a 50mm 1.8 on the front.

"that must be about 20 megapixels" he said

i told him it was only 8 and he just said "oh, ok"

you could tell he was thinking 'your camera is crap, my phone has more than that'.

i think men in general like to be able to quote numbers and claim bragging rights, whether you're into cameras, cars, watches, computers etc etc etc.

i know people who can tell you how quick their car will hit 60mph, what they are faster than and all that jazz but would stuggle to expain the why an internal combustion engine works.
 
lexie said:
i had this experience yesterday with a friend i hadn't seen in a while. i was holding a gripped 30d with a 50mm 1.8 on the front.

"that must be about 20 megapixels" he said

i told him it was only 8 and he just said "oh, ok"

you could tell he was thinking 'your camera is crap, my phone has more than that'.
Click to expand...
Can I just get clarification on this :thinking:

I read a couple of years ago that 10megapixels was more than enough for top standard photos, as any more would only be of benefit to someone who wanted to print something to cover the moon.

I've nearly been drawn into a discussion about this with my girlfriend's son, who was spouting off about the latest models, but I realise I am not that well read on the subject.
 
I can have a bit of sympathy with newcomers confronted with a DSLR these days. There are few hi tech toys urging you to part with your disposable income that are as seductive as a DSLR at prices which promise instant success in the minds of many buyers.

There was a time when it was a simple matter to explain the basics of any camera presented to you by someone needing help, regardless of brand and any small deviations it had from the norm, you could find your way round it in minutes. Nowadays with a DSLR you're not familiar with you'd need to spend a fair bit of time familiarising yourself with the particular camera before you could give any meaningful help.

You used to be able to open the back revealing the focal plane shutter and demonstrate it working It was relatively easy to explain why the camera has to have a focal plane shutter and why it imposes a max flash sync speed on us while other cameras don't.

Some of us will have assimilated all these changes gradually over time -, not just been confronted with the modern beast and a manual which pays lip service at best to the fundamentals of photography, and only because the manufacturers feel obliged to provide at least some basic knowledge. If you saw a photographer with an SLR at one time, he was either a pro or an enthusiast - would have had a hand held meter and most definitely wouldn't have bought the camera in the first place without a good basic understanding of exposure.

What doesn't help of course is that auto modes are capable of producing good results most of the time and are a positive help to photographers who understand these modes , but a positive bar to people making the effort to understand shutter speeds and apertures etc. when they don't really see a need to.

The more committed newcomers will of course make the effort to a fuller understanding and all the information they need is out there and readily available but there's no denying that there's a lot more to get to grips with these days than there used to be.
 
Even people you wouldn't think would be are suckered into the better faster thing. Friend with a 7d wants a newer 'faster' one with higher fps. Somehow I think she thinks she will suddenly get better images by rattling them off at 10 fps instead of 8. Most of those shotgunned at 8 fps are camera shake blurred or OOF....

It's generally more of a man thing though. Hifi types are the same. They'll spend hours yacking about what kit they have and absolutely nothing about the music.
 
photoimaging said:
We have this a lot, and not just students, they assume that they have bought photographic ability along with the camera. So many times we hear "my pictures are good because my camera cost £000000"

Joan
Click to expand...

Surely! NOT on this forum.........
 
Scarecrow said:
Strange that many people think that just because they have a top end DSLR, they are automatically going to be producing world beating photographs.

I bet the same people don't go out and buy a top of the range Fender guitar and expect to be the next Jimmy Hendrix (or perhaps they do?)
Click to expand...

B****r! Anyone want to swap a Steinway piano for a top of the range Fender guitar?????
Anyway J H is dead, I want to be the next Chopin........:naughty:
 
Tokkelossi - Hope I put this right, as the last thing I'm looking to do is offend you,

I posted on here about DOF because I was hoping that people really into their photography would simplify the basics of this, and put me on the right lines - give some good examples that I could go out and try on any street or field, but I'm immediately simply pointed to google.

This for me is the essence of your question in this post - they come to you for advice and classes becuase google gives facts, but cant have a conversation or discussion about it - ask questions, say "ok, so what If i do this, what would the result be" and then really understand what they are reading in the test book or manual.

If youl could learn it all off google, teachers and university professors would become largely redundant except in learning to read and maybe some basic maths. The disucssion and learning is crucuial and simply cant be learnt without interaction surely?
 
Just reading what a couple more people have posted on my other comment, and maybe I'm missing the point, or too basic, but the explanations are really simply in laymans terms now - far better than what I read on wiki for instance which I found hard to follow as a complete novice.

Is this what people want from you?

Hope my above post came out ok!
 
stockwell said:
Just reading what a couple more people have posted on my other comment, and maybe I'm missing the point, or too basic, but the explanations are really simply in laymans terms now - far better than what I read on wiki for instance which I found hard to follow as a complete novice.

Is this what people want from you?

Hope my above post came out ok!
Click to expand...
That makes sense to me. A lot of the things which really trouble newcomers can be difficult to explain in text unless couched in simple language which is often the last thing you get - even from some specialised books.

There's really no substitute for these things being explained on a one to one basis with a camera in hand.
 
stockwell said:
Tokkelossi - Hope I put this right, as the last thing I'm looking to do is offend you,

I posted on here about DOF because I was hoping that people really into their photography would simplify the basics of this, and put me on the right lines - give some good examples that I could go out and try on any street or field, but I'm immediately simply pointed to google.

This for me is the essence of your question in this post - they come to you for advice and classes becuase google gives facts, but cant have a conversation or discussion about it - ask questions, say "ok, so what If i do this, what would the result be" and then really understand what they are reading in the test book or manual.

If youl could learn it all off google, teachers and university professors would become largely redundant except in learning to read and maybe some basic maths. The disucssion and learning is crucuial and simply cant be learnt without interaction surely?
Click to expand...

:plusone:

Which I think is the problem with a lot of learning - you get taught how to do things but not why....

I've go this problem at the moment trying to understand photoshop better. There are plenty of tutorials out there but I am struggling to find ones that explain well why the various techniques are used and what the trade offs are.

Toby
 
stockwell said:
Tokkelossi - Hope I put this right, as the last thing I'm looking to do is offend you,

I posted on here about DOF because I was hoping that people really into their photography would simplify the basics of this, and put me on the right lines - give some good examples that I could go out and try on any street or field, but I'm immediately simply pointed to google.

This for me is the essence of your question in this post - they come to you for advice and classes becuase google gives facts, but cant have a conversation or discussion about it - ask questions, say "ok, so what If i do this, what would the result be" and then really understand what they are reading in the test book or manual.

If youl could learn it all off google, teachers and university professors would become largely redundant except in learning to read and maybe some basic maths. The disucssion and learning is crucuial and simply cant be learnt without interaction surely?
Click to expand...

Im sorry you thought that :(

I said go to google because there is some good video footage explaining DOF. Its much better to see it then try and get your head around a text message.

You would be inundated with descriptions on what it is.

Can I point you to some good links or is it better that we try and explain.

I am willing to what would make you feel better about this ;)
 
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Thanks Tom,

yes, some links would definitely be useful, and I'm going to take them away and have a good read and then PM you with my questions and some examples.

I think for me on the particular area I wanted to understand was after looking at some shots a friend took at my Wedding a few weeks back, and I'd like to understand not simply how to recreate the picture he took, but what other things I need to understand to get similar effects myself but when the distances are different, the DOF requirements change, or the light isnt so good, and how these can be achieved.
I know that to achieve this, the whole subject needs to be understood, and not simply the funtions of the camera.

I suppose its no good having the fanciest headlights on the car if noone told you that you need to use them when it gets dark... pretty rubbish example, but you get the point!

Thanks for your offer of help once again,

Dave
 
Tokkelossi said:
There have been a few camera adverts on tv of late and Canon were pushing hard not long ago with their skateboard and rock climber on a wall magazine adds.

I think ZoneV may have a point about the marketing. However, we are talking the basics. Even if you get a flash car, you know where the gears and clutch are....... oh .... or do they buy fully auto flappy paddle?

Im also looking at some students coming out of hahahahaha Uni hahahaha .... in my day the Tech .... and i find they have been lied to. No way can they walk out the door and into making money with what they have been taught. Its so sad because I can see they have the want .... just not the wisdom. What the hell are we doing to our students.

Every year I take on a few young togs to help out with music festivals. Normally over 3/4 days. Most dont last one because its not what they expected ..... lots of walking, hours, work with no sleep or food.

Seems we need a course on the real world of togs and making money. The sad thing is, its not them. its us .... or the system thats supposed to teach them.
Click to expand...

+1

I'm a commercial photographer, assistant and somehow find time to be on a commercial photography BAHons course too. Too many of my colleagues are just...uncaring. I don't know if they intend on working in photography or not, but if they do... do they just expect to get a job when they graduate? Cos if so, there's some seriously bad news for them...

I took the decision to go to uni to do commercial photography, because I want the 3 years of tuition, working with ex-advertising and current commercial photographer lecturers, and to improve my post processing, commercial and conceptual skills, and also as three years of portfolio development without having to make a 100% living from photography. I want to work in advertising and commercial photography eventually.

And yeah, there's the camera nerd students who can tell you all about how many megapickels their camera's got, but there's also plenty of the other end too - ignorant by choice about everything technical, business related and in some cases, creative too! Yes, you do need to have technical knowledge - but you also need to be able to think outside of fstops and lens diffraction or, worst of all, obsessing how that roll of photos you shot on film is instantly 'art' because you processed it in cat **** and coffee.

I really don't see why you'd pay £3k a year (soon to be 9...) and not read around your subject, learn how the industry works, and set yourself up as soon as remotely possible doing real work.

It's a problem that exists in part I think from the lecturers and institutional ethos of the university (and I'm not picking out my uni here, talking to other students at networking events and seminars and online has suggested a similar problem at a wide range of places) that sometimes lecturers are too scared or afraid to give 'true' criticism of work - so people are mollycuddled. If it's crap, I want to be told so...

Briefs can be too broad and nonspecific, while professional practice is either taught too late in the game, and often not very well. It needs to be drilled into students from day 1 that you are now a business, and as such need to focus like one.

There's some fantastic photographers and creatives on my course however, and I'm going to yell at our lecturers if the professional practice module isn't top notch, because what a lot of them need most is to learn how to function as a professional, and how the market and industry (sort of!) works...

Oh, and there should be dedicated modules on light. It's so so key, and noone gets it because it simply hasn't been explained... studio flashes are still 'a big scary thing that it's hard to put a softbox on the front of...'



All that said, and as a cheeky aside, are you after anyone for any festivals this year? ;) I've shot acts from Chase & Status to Florence & the Machine, N-Dubz, and VIPs inc Gordon Brown and Sven, and was press accredited for download festival last year, very familiar with working around stages and with artists of all sizes, and by no means afraid of hard work and no sleep... hell, I thrive off it :) My site's here, I'd love to talk :)
 
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