Student Riot in London

[whiteflyer]

The Apprenticeship is a good point, I did one in mechanical engineering (centre lathe tuner) back in the late 70s. I got paid a very poor wage and had to go to night school, but I did this knowing that once skilled I would get a very good wages.

Student should be thinking along the same lines, that Uni education is a future investment, not just a 4 years ****-up (Yes I know that generalization, but you get the point)

 

[Splog]

You're kidding right? Plumbing/Electrician's can be extremely well paying jobs. What's the average wage of a Plumber in London? Around £50k a year isn't it?

Not really! ..... I guess you missed the point :shrug: They need to work for several years, get experience and know what they are doing before anything like that kind of earning ..... I suspect you've picked up on a story from several years back? .... immigration is sorting out that issue anyway

 

[puggie]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cambsno
No, colleges can charge UP TO £9k, they are not automatically doing that!

It has already been stated that they will need to charge at least 7k to make up for the shortfall in funding! Also they are a business, and if they can, they will.

Universities can charge up to £9k while accepting government funding. they do have the option to go private, tell the government to stuff their funding and charge what they like, potentially well over £9k and I think some will.

Yes uni is an investment in you knowledge but plenty of people leave uni then start at the bottom of their chosen career path on very basic money. yes in 8-10 years time they may be of £40-50k but by then you are in your 30s and could have got there without. my brother in law started an apprenticeship at 16 and earns significantly more than me or my wife who both have degrees. This country has plenty of over educated people not using their knowledge, we need some skilled people to build up some industry again.

EDIT: nice pics DemiLion

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Yeah, why dont the politicians use all that money we have sitting around to pay for free degrees? You would have thought that some of the more intelligent students would be able to work out that it is just not possible to make uni free???

First degrees are free (for now) north of the border......

 

[Splog]

First degrees are free (for now) north of the border......

Interesting Shame how English can't take advantage .... but many others can

 

[goldenlight]

Another way to look at this ..... Imagine someone starting an apprenticeship at 16 - 18! ... They work their 40 hours a week for little above basic wage after a few years they start to earn a reasonable income ... perhaps 15k - 16k ..... a few years later they earn £20k, if they're lucky £25k If they really want to earn more they need to progress in their career! ....... Education should be seen as an investment in a students future career earning opportunity

Tell me more about these apprenticeships available to 16-18 year olds.

 

[goldenlight]

First degrees are free (for now) north of the border......

So is care for the elderly and (from next year) prescriptions.

 

[goldenlight]

Not really! ..... I guess you missed the point :shrug: They need to work for several years, get experience and know what they are doing before anything like that kind of earning ..... I suspect you've picked up on a story from several years back? .... immigration is sorting out that issue anyway

What a good idea, import cheap labour to force down our own wages - if we still have a job.

 

[DemiLion]

Have you met the multi-quote button? It's just over there---------------->

 

[photon]

Education should be seen as an investment in a students future career earning opportunity

I think you're confusing education with training, but it may be that I need a dose of Ayn Rand...

 

[goldenlight]

I'm with both of you on this, I see the students being interviewed on TV and just think they are that dumb they should not even be at uni.

Let get it right once and for all.

YOU DO NOT PAY UP FRONT

YOU ONLY PAY AT TIMES WHEN YOU EARN OVER £21K

YOU PAY FOR A MAXIMUM 30 YEARS

Wow! 21K is such a huge salary that 30K of debt should be no problem and 30 years is no time at all - it's hardly the best part of a lifetime, is it?

In fact, the more debt the better - after all, our boom years of sustained economic growth before the credit crunch were built on ever increasing amounts of personal debt and it's not like it contributed towards our economic downfall, is it? :shrug:

The truth is we are in the mire. Everyone seems to think that everyone else should bear the brunt, be it students, the elderly, sick, disabled or unemployed, but never the rich, of course. I'm glad so many here take delight in seeing other people's pips squeak and I hope you have very well paid secure jobs because otherwise, like the rest of us, you haven't got much of a future. I'm not too bothered about myself to be honest, I'm old and ill and have already had the best of my life by far. However, I do feel for the youth of today, my daughter included, who through no fault of their own find their futures have been mortgaged by previous generations.

Years before the credit crunch I said it would all end in tears, because I could see that the "growth" in our economy was fuelled by consumer spending made possible by increasingly unsustainable personal borrowing.

I will tell you now, the present Government have got it wrong as well. There are two sides of the equation in reducing the deficit. Spending cuts, yes, but also income through taxation. For better or worse, a huge proportion of our economy is driven by the public sector. Cut it too deeply and you risk destabilizing the economy still further, stifling growth at best and very likely plunging us back into recession (current weak growth hardly qualifies us as having moved out of recession). The result will be an unexpected drop in revenue for the Treasury which will no doubt precipitate yet more spending cuts, perpetuating a vicious circle.

The long term answer is to encourage and stimulate increased productivity in the private sector, but that requires a buoyant economy generating confidence and maintaining home market demand. Not all increased productivity can be channelled through exports, particularly when there is a global economic crisis. There could even be an argument for a temporary increase in spending to generate the growth we need. That aside, it just does not make sense to attempt to pay off the equivalent of a lifetime mortgage in five years. Repayment needs to be planned and structured, not undertaken in reckless panic in a way that will further harm the economy. Following the recent success story of China, it might even be time to look at moving from a free market economy towards a planned economy, or at least more of a mixed economy than we have at present.

But that's not going to happen. Rightly or wrongly the Government has set its course for the next five years. I hope time proves them to be right and me to be wrong. I fear that by 2015 we will be in economic meltdown with the debt still much higher than anticipated due to falling revenue and an ever diminishing chance of repaying it. Taxes of all types will be higher and there will be much more unemployment, poverty and social unrest. The vast majority of people who aren't actually below the poverty line will have a much reduced standard of living. The line for the Prime Minister's Happiness Index (if it hasn't fallen victim to yet more cuts) will have crashed through the floor.

Remember this in five year's time and see if I'm not right.

I do not mean these to be political points, merely economic ones.

 

[goldenlight]

Have you met the multi-quote button? It's just over there---------------->

Sorry, I'm computer illiterate - I should have gone to university!

 

[DemiLion]

 

[Flash In The Pan]

So is care for the elderly

In theory, but in practice some councils (funnily enough those with a high percentage of home ownership) up here are charging for care.

 

[ding76uk]

Goldenlight, a great post

The problem is with those mentioning apprenticeships, where are they? They are very few and far between in the current climate. They involve going to college and university in some cases on a day release, which again all has to be paid for (which is a reason many companies will not take apprentices on).

If these apprenticeships were actually available to the young people many would take it up, but the reality is they are not. We are quick to say that all students at uni are there to squander 3 years, when in reality the largest proportion of them are there to study and try to get a good job.

We try to discourage debt but encourage students to take out massive loans to be educated, which puts them in debt for up to 30 years before their career starts.

Goldenlight, a great post!

 

[goldenlight]

Goldenlight, a great post

The problem is with those mentioning apprenticeships, where are they? They are very few and far between in the current climate. They involve going to college and university in some cases on a day release, which again all has to be paid for (which is a reason many companies will not take apprentices on).

If these apprenticeships were actually available to the young people many would take it up, but the reality is they are not. We are quick to say that all students at uni are there to squander 3 years, when in reality the largest proportion of them are there to study and try to get a good job.

We try to discourage debt but encourage students to take out massive loans to be educated, which puts them in debt for up to 30 years before their career starts.

Goldenlight, a great post!

Thanks, Carl.

I think that young people in general and students in particular get a bad press which, in most cases, is thoroughly undeserved. It's always been the same, in my day we were generalized as being a bunch of long-haired (as if that had anything to do with it) layabouts. I think it's a sign of getting old when you start to critisize "the youth of today."

Rather than everyone, politicians included (or should that be "especially?"), looking for minority groups to scapegoat, we need some serious thought and long-term plans (reaching far beyond the next election) to get us out of this mess.

I'm sorry, but the present plans don't seem borne out of serious thought and long term planning, more out of panic, knee-jerk reaction and partial ideology. If this is the best the current prime generation have to offer, thank goodness when the youth of today finally get their chance to govern. I just hope they show more imagination and do a better job. They could hardly do worse.

I am not making a specific political point, because I believe that all the current parties are equally inept and culpable.

 

[ding76uk]

The problem is the media will also focus on the few who do commit violence, of which most are not connected to the student protest and are mere hangers on.

They press have been quick to condemn the vandalisation of the police van, yet have failed to report upon the "Youth of Today" when the group of young students formed a circle round the van holding hands to protect it from being vandalised any further.

Unfortunately fear sells newspapers, especially when it targets the state of the "Youth" and how terrible they are. We seem very quick to condemn the youth and very lax in praising it. Sign of the times I guess. (awaits the influx of in my day....... posts )

 

[Pieface]

Goldenlight, a great post

The problem is with those mentioning apprenticeships, where are they? They are very few and far between in the current climate. They involve going to college and university in some cases on a day release, which again all has to be paid for (which is a reason many companies will not take apprentices on).

If these apprenticeships were actually available to the young people many would take it up, but the reality is they are not. We are quick to say that all students at uni are there to squander 3 years, when in reality the largest proportion of them are there to study and try to get a good job.

We try to discourage debt but encourage students to take out massive loans to be educated, which puts them in debt for up to 30 years before their career starts.

Goldenlight, a great post!

You mention the current climate there being no Apprenticeships. It's also the same with students who just got out of Uni. There are no jobs for them either. I knew a fair few people on Apprenticeships before the recession.. The students aren't the only ones affected by the recession in terms of jobs, everyone is.

 

[goldenlight]

You mention the current climate there being no Apprenticeships. It's also the same with students who just got out of Uni. There are no jobs for them either. I knew a fair few people on Apprenticeships before the recession.. The students aren't the only ones affected by the recession in terms of jobs, everyone is.

Exactly. It applies just as much to all the "scroungers" on ESA and DLA who are to be "encouraged" back into work. Where are all the jobs for them and, if they do get one, at which fit, healthy person's expense?

 

[jamesb84]

(awaits the influx of in my day....... posts )

In my day...we were all in a stupor playing Xbox games or not caring. Kinda wish I'd been young enough to have a reason to get out and protest. I'm covering next Tuesday in Bristol for an agency so I'll get to be there.

Still, I think we can quite safely say that this is a generation that will definitely NOT be voting Conservative. When these kids are old enough to vote, some of which will be the next election...if they vote, it's landslide time!

 

[SimonM]

Is that you on page 7 of today's Daily Mail?

 

[Forbiddenbiker]

...

snipped!! Hope thats ok.

...

...Remember this in five year's time and see if I'm not right.

I do not mean these to be political points, merely economic ones.

I agree with much of what you say ... its madeness.

IMO. One of the unspoken tactics of recovering from a poor economy is to make the poor poorer, whist also making them work harder, divide and dilute the spending power of the people on foreign goods in a bid to keep as much of the spent money circulating around in the same country.

So that’s what’s happening… again …and again...students and all.

I can’t see or understand an easy fix …only a huge and chaotic move out of the gambling type banking and loans system we have now where inflation pays the debts of the gambling which will be forever increasing. On to some other theorised yet fundamentally an untested and unknown system.

Then again any new system cant be much worse than simply repeating the errors of our passed which is what our government and most others involved with our capitalist system seem to be getting on with…

Beats me… speechless…

Really, we supposedly educated humans are pretty pathetic if we let this ride for another fifty years I can’t help but think….

:shrug:

 

[ding76uk]

You mention the current climate there being no Apprenticeships. It's also the same with students who just got out of Uni. There are no jobs for them either. I knew a fair few people on Apprenticeships before the recession.. The students aren't the only ones affected by the recession in terms of jobs, everyone is.

Exactly, so you either have people in education learning and leave them with a massive debt, or you have them on the dole "scrounging" Whichever way they jump they are wrong. Then you add the initiative that if you have been out of work so long you are forced into doing work for free, which is great for employers, but where does it leave those who have to work for nothing.

Is anything worse than to humiliate someone, who in many cases feel terrible enough that they are not working, into working like a slave?

If 50 percent of students who are planning to go to university next year decided not to and entered the job market, the economic and job crisis that would be caused by it would be huge!

 

[Ulfric M Douglas]

I really enjoyed the BBC news channel coverage, despite the wierd commentaries by the presenters who seemed to be getting a load of detail wrong, even though we could see the stuff right there and then.
I saw that there wasn't a riot ... there was an attempted protest march which was boxed off by the militia police. Some folks had a scuffle which is perfectly predictable if they're being imprisoned : reaction against the police was at a far lower level than could have been justified.
Someone left a police van in a stupid spot so that someone else could mess it up, so they could blame someone for something bad in the event nothing really bad happened. Since nothing really bad happened the van could be used in the "I told you so" banter.
That was about it. I enjoyed watching the ebb and flow.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Exactly, so you either have people in education learning and leave them with a massive debt

To be fair, compared to the level of debt that most students in the US end up with £9000 isn't a huge amount of money, although I can see how it could potentially mean a return to the bad old days, when a university education was only for the few.

 

[goldenlight]

In my day...we were all in a stupor playing Xbox games or not caring. Kinda wish I'd been young enough to have a reason to get out and protest. I'm covering next Tuesday in Bristol for an agency so I'll get to be there.

Still, I think we can quite safely say that this is a generation that will definitely NOT be voting Conservative. When these kids are old enough to vote, some of which will be the next election...if they vote, it's landslide time!

I think "winning" the election might turn out to be a poisoned chalice for the Conservatives but at least they are broadly pursuing the policies that those who voted for them expected. The same cannot be said of the Liberals who are supporting these same policies, precious few of which remotely resemble anything in their manifesto. I think in due course they will pay a far higher price than the Conservatives. People have short memories and will soon forget the ineptitude and culpability of the previous Labour administration (see, I'm not being political, I have equal disregard for all of them! ).

Bearing in mind how unpalitable these policies are and how they will have a major impact one way or another on just about everyone, it would have been prudent to have sought the support of the electorate for the Coalition through another General Election. This should have been held immediately after the Government's spending review with the Conservatives and Liberals campaining on a joint platform and not opposing each other in constituencies where they hold the seat. They would have had the opportunity to spell out the gravity of the situation and explain fully within the debate why their proposed policies offer the best solution.

They may very well have won and therefore would have a clear and unambiguous mandate to govern. Without that it is a very cogent critisism that they have not been democratically elected and I am certain this will cost them dear in terms of civil unrest from many sections of society, the likes of which we have only just started to see.

 

[goldenlight]

To be fair, compared to the level of debt that most students in the US end up with £9000 isn't a huge amount of money, although I can see how it could potentially mean a return to the bad old days, when a university education was only for the few.

That's potentially £9000 per year!

Anyway, why compare us to the US, which has some of the widest social divisions and deepest injustices in the Western World?

 

[Forbiddenbiker]

That's potentially £9000 per year!

Anyway, why compare us to the US, which has some of the widest social divisions and deepest injustices in the Western World?

That's a warming thought ...lets hope we're not following their lead.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

That's potentially £9000 per year!

Anyway, why compare us to the US, which has some of the widest social divisions and deepest injustices in the Western World?

Oh, I thought it was £9k for a 3 year degree course - that is rather a lot. On the positive side if they had to actually pay for the course it would make many think twice before embarking on one of those pointless new-age degrees that have sprung up over the last few years.

 

[onomatopoeia]

To be fair, compared to the level of debt that most students in the US end up with £9000 isn't a huge amount of money, although I can see how it could potentially mean a return to the bad old days, when a university education was only for the few.

You realise that in the "bad old days" university education was free and supported by a grant? Even though it was only for the few. The few not being the wealthy but being those that got good grades at A level so were accepted by universities.

There was no bar that stopped "working class" (how I loathe that phrase) people like my parents sending their children to university because I applied through UCCA, got good A level grades and I got in to my chosen university.

Note for youngsters - UCCA was the body that managed university applications, there was a separate body for polytechnics called PCAS. They got merged into UCAS when all the polytechnics were renamed into universities.

 

[jamesb84]

I think "winning" the election might turn out to be a poisoned chalice for the Conservatives but at least they are broadly pursuing the policies that those who voted for them expected. The same cannot be said of the Liberals who are supporting these same policies, precious few of which remotely resemble anything in their manifesto. I think in due course they will pay a far higher price than the Conservatives. People have short memories and will soon forget the ineptitude and culpability of the previous Labour administration (see, I'm not being political, I have equal disregard for all of them! ).

Bearing in mind how unpalitable these policies are and how they will have a major impact one way or another on just about everyone, it would have been prudent to have sought the support of the electorate for the Coalition through another General Election. This should have been held immediately after the Government's spending review with the Conservatives and Liberals campaining on a joint platform and not opposing each other in constituencies where they hold the seat. They would have had the opportunity to spell out the gravity of the situation and explain fully within the debate why their proposed policies offer the best solution.

They may very well have won and therefore would have a clear and unambiguous mandate to govern. Without that it is a very cogent critisism that they have not been democratically elected and I am certain this will cost them dear in terms of civil unrest from many sections of society, the likes of which we have only just started to see.

Exceedingly sensible comment...

Shamefully, I voted for the LibDems and have a LibDem MP (one Stephen Williams - former Higher Education LD spokesperson). I fully expected the policies we have seen thus far to come from the Conservatives...for all the PR and spin that Mr Cameron has given us over the last 5 years, it's not too hard to see past that and realise that the Conservatives are still the same old, same old.

For the LibDems to finally abandon their centre-left policies and move over to the centre-right "orange book" ideology was unexpected. Since Clegg became leader we (and I use the phrase "we" as up until 18/05/10 I was a LibDem member) seemed fairly balanced with a degree of centre-left and centre-right policies. Suddenly a lot of LibDem members have found the rug pulled from under them, and left in the cold by the coalition policies.

I would entirely agree that the Coalition should have been given time to adjust, the summer recess, and then a couple of months to establish what they felt would be the best recourse to the economic situation. Hell, even the Labour party could have done the same.

Each party demonstrates their Comprehensive Spending Review (like singing for survival on X-Factor) and then the public decides who should go and who should govern (we could even have done phone votes ). Whoever had the majority (either the coalition, or the Labour party (and others)) has a clear mandate to govern.

Of course, that would be a Democracy...what we have now is an Oligarchy/Plutocracy.

 

[goldenlight]

On the positive side if they had to actually pay for the course it would make many think twice before embarking on one of those pointless new-age degrees that have sprung up over the last few years.

Like Modern History? Could get you a job as Chancellor of the Exchequer, you know!

 

[goldenlight]

Exceedingly sensible comment...

Shamefully, I voted for the LibDems and have a LibDem MP (one Stephen Williams - former Higher Education LD spokesperson). I fully expected the policies we have seen thus far to come from the Conservatives...for all the PR and spin that Mr Cameron has given us over the last 5 years, it's not too hard to see past that and realise that the Conservatives are still the same old, same old.

For the LibDems to finally abandon their centre-left policies and move over to the centre-right "orange book" ideology was unexpected. Since Clegg became leader we (and I use the phrase "we" as up until 18/05/10 I was a LibDem member) seemed fairly balanced with a degree of centre-left and centre-right policies. Suddenly a lot of LibDem members have found the rug pulled from under them, and left in the cold by the coalition policies.

I would entirely agree that the Coalition should have been given time to adjust, the summer recess, and then a couple of months to establish what they felt would be the best recourse to the economic situation. Hell, even the Labour party could have done the same.

Each party demonstrates their Comprehensive Spending Review (like singing for survival on X-Factor) and then the public decides who should go and who should govern (we could even have done phone votes ). Whoever had the majority (either the coalition, or the Labour party (and others)) has a clear mandate to govern.

Of course, that would be a Democracy...what we have now is an Oligarchy/Plutocracy.

Glad we're on the same wavelength, James. Just to lighten the procedings a little, X-Factor style phone votes? Wagner might have won.....

.....on the other hand, he could hardly do worse!

 

[Photo Plod]

I really enjoyed the BBC news channel coverage, despite the wierd commentaries by the presenters who seemed to be getting a load of detail wrong, even though we could see the stuff right there and then.
I saw that there wasn't a riot ... there was an attempted protest march which was boxed off by the militia police. Some folks had a scuffle which is perfectly predictable if they're being imprisoned : reaction against the police was at a far lower level than could have been justified.
Someone left a police van in a stupid spot so that someone else could mess it up, so they could blame someone for something bad in the event nothing really bad happened. Since nothing really bad happened the van could be used in the "I told you so" banter.
That was about it. I enjoyed watching the ebb and flow.

I really enjoy reading your justification for violence and your conspiracy theories with police acting as agent provocateurs. Boo hoo! Kettling! Oh, the injustice of it all!

I'd rather that than have a load more of London smashed up.

 

[gramps]

Oh if only we did have a militia style police - makes my blood boil watching useless members of society smashing up property owned and financed by others.
Disagree with a government action? Yeah why not smash up a police van or a bus shelter
Where's the water cannon?

 

[DemiLion]

Is that you on page 7 of today's Daily Mail?

Thanks for the compliment (I think? ), but I was just there to learn and practice my skills as I've got no intention of attempting to sell any images until I'm a lot better. That means in both photographic terms and also reading a situation to get the best and most newsworthy shots, either of the moment or in terms of stock.

My lens featured on both P7 of the DM and P9 of the DT though, but perhaps featured is a bit of a strong way of saying 'on the edge of the frame'.

 

[Splog]

<snip>:

Where's the water cannon?

dunno! but I bet it's far superior to a water Nikkon

 

[gramps]

dunno! but I bet it's far superior to a water Nikkon

 

[DemiLion]

I really enjoyed the BBC news channel coverage, despite the wierd commentaries by the presenters who seemed to be getting a load of detail wrong, even though we could see the stuff right there and then.
I saw that there wasn't a riot ... there was an attempted protest march which was boxed off by the militia police. Some folks had a scuffle which is perfectly predictable if they're being imprisoned : reaction against the police was at a far lower level than could have been justified.
Someone left a police van in a stupid spot so that someone else could mess it up, so they could blame someone for something bad in the event nothing really bad happened. Since nothing really bad happened the van could be used in the "I told you so" banter.
That was about it. I enjoyed watching the ebb and flow.

Nice to hear a load of waffle from someone who was a few hundred miles away.

For the record the Met (assisted by the CoL) had the situation under control from the start, and handled it admirably. I'd love to see almost any other police force in the rest of Europe deal with a similar situation in the heart of their own Capital and have such a contained injury free, and damage free, result.

I'm inclined to agree that the Transit was a sacrificial lamb, but for different reasons to yours; in that it allowed them to contain the potential trouble in Parliament Street, before the protest breached Parliament Square therefore requiring a vastly higher number of containing officers. The plan had obviously been thought through in advance and a lot of contingencies catered for.

For what it's worth, apart from a few minor rucks under St James Arch, the majority of scuffles that you are talking about were caused by South Londoners mugging female students for their mobile phones and purses in plain view, and a few turf fights between gangs.

 

[Arkady]

...the majority of scuffles that you are talking about were caused by South Londoners mugging female students for their mobile phones and purses in plain view, and a few turf fights between gangs.

Oi, you muggin' me orf?
It's "sarf lunnen" to you, nonce...

Nice to see the stereotypes running true to form.

(I was born in Woolwich and half my family live in Bexley and Thamesmead...lol reminds me of that bit in Airplane! where the old lady says "it's alright, I speak jive!")