Student Riot in London

[gramps]

to have a strong country, needs a strong backbone of hard working individuals doing 'what it takes' to get the job done, not pople who whine at every obstacle in their way.

Unfortunately we now live in a time when everyone seems to think that society owes them a living so 'doing what it takes' isn't going to catch on anytime soon.
I started out with 4 GCE's, having a mum who was a widow and unable to provide any hope of 'further' education of any sort. I quickly learned that I was never going to make any money working for somebody else so got off my backside and formed my own company. I hate every penny of my hard-earned that goes toward financing the lifestyle of some of the useless scroungers I see every day in society.
For everyone really working to make something of themselves ... well done, it's a dying art!

 

[jamesb84]

Unfortunately we now live in a time when everyone seems to think that society owes them a living so 'doing what it takes' isn't going to catch on anytime soon.
I started out with 4 GCE's, having a mum who was a widow and unable to provide any hope of 'further' education of any sort. I quickly learned that I was never going to make any money working for somebody else so got off my backside and formed my own company. I hate every penny of my hard-earned that goes toward financing the lifestyle of some of the useless scroungers I see every day in society.
For everyone really working to make something of themselves ... well done, it's a dying art!

Are we lumping students in with the useless scroungers?

I guess you won't be seeing your accountant any time soon to count your pennies then? He'll be a graduate won't he?!

Or, heaven forbid you should require either a solicitor or a barrister soon...they'll be graduates too won't they?!

Well, since you don't want to fund "useless scroungers" perhaps you'd better do your own accounts and defend yourself if you ever fall foul of the law.

 

[ding76uk]

The job market is saturated with female primary school teachers. They are desparate for male primary teachers and a lot of subjects in secondary are still lacking.

 

[ding76uk]

Are we lumping students in with the useless scroungers?

I guess you won't be seeing your accountant any time soon to count your pennies then? He'll be a graduate won't he?!

Or, heaven forbid you should require either a solicitor or a barrister soon...they'll be graduates too won't they?!

Well, since you don't want to fund "useless scroungers" perhaps you'd better do your own accounts and defend yourself if you ever fall foul of the law.

Don't forget that we hope he never needs a doctor, or any offspring need schooling.

I really do think the attitude that every student is lazy now is a myth and angers me. All those that put in hard graft to get where they are deserves praise. Just because that is working hard to get a good degree makes it no different from working in a career or manual labour. Why can someone not dream of being a doctor only to have that dream dashed due to the fear of debt.

Everyone should have the right to free education to the level they desire. We constantly moan about people who are using credit and taking out loans being bad with their money, yet we encourage our young people to take up debt of up to £40 000 just to be educated to get a career of their choice.

Everyone in their working lifetime will contribute tax. If their degree gets them a better paid job, then they will pay more, hence paying back their debt.

Another major point people are forgetting is the amount of jobs which now require a degree level qualification to be considered for interview. It is not just students, employers are just as guilty.

 

[gramps]

Are we lumping students in with the useless scroungers?

I guess you won't be seeing your accountant any time soon to count your pennies then? He'll be a graduate won't he?!

Or, heaven forbid you should require either a solicitor or a barrister soon...they'll be graduates too won't they?!

Well, since you don't want to fund "useless scroungers" perhaps you'd better do your own accounts and defend yourself if you ever fall foul of the law.

Calm down dear, it's an Internet Forum!
Re-read my post, it didn't contain mention of students, solicitors, barristers or accountants.
My post commented on my views of 'scroungers', if you haven't seen any around Bristol, James, you must be wondering around with your eyes closed!
Don't tell me you haven't noticed how everyone expects life to be given to them on a plate?
This country has lost its work ethic, now everyone believes they'll make it in life by winning the lottery ... or X Factor!

 

[Arkady]

Not all student are idle scrotes, but there are plenty who do fall into that category.
The hard-working ones were probably still in lectures while 'that lot' were smashing up private property and having a jolly good laugh...

I was a student too: plenty of us here on TP attended college or university - we know that those places, especially on arts-based courses are stacked to the rafters with complete no-hopers who'll never get a job in industry.
To support myself I had two part-time jobs and enlisted in the TA to make ends meet.
Of those that attended Uni with me, none bar myself ever made anything like the impact on the photographic world we'd hoped to (and any impact I've made is almost unnoticable as well...). Two of the fifteen from my year became professional photographers, either full or part-time.
Our sister courses: graphic design and fashion design produced even fewer people making into their respective industries, judging from my Facebook and Freinds Reunited pages.

Arts courses are a nice, soft, cushy way of avoiding having to think about the real world for a few years while you weigh up your options. Being 'creative' is in vogue at the moment.
Someone here mentioned architects: my brother studied at Brighton Uni and 15 years on, he's the only one from his graduating year working in architecture in any way at all...
Not because they're not qualified, but because they can't be bothered once they realise what hard work is required to actually make it happen in the real world...
it's easier to get into Uni than it is to get a proper job and that's why Uni is such an attractive option.

Well sorry but Uni now looks like it's going to reflect the realities of life outside the halls of academia. Pay your way and work harder.

 

[DemiLion]

Are we lumping students in with the useless scroungers?

Absolutely! The dirty, soap dodging, Jeremy Kyle watching scrotes.

BTW did anyone else watch HIGNFU last night, when Jo Brand rightly pointed out that the riot finished just as Countdown was starting on C4+1?????





Signed DemiLion (ex student)

 

[Splog]

Not all student are idle scrotes, but there are plenty who do fall into that category.
The hard-working ones were probably still in lectures while 'that lot' were smashing up private property and having a jolly good laugh...

I was a student too: plenty of us here on TP attended college or university - we know that those places, especially on arts-based courses are stacked to the rafters with complete no-hopers who'll never get a job in industry.
To support myself I had two part-time jobs and enlisted in the TA to make ends meet.
Of those that attended Uni with me, none bar myself ever made anything like the impact on the photographic world we'd hoped to (and any impact I've made is almost unnoticable as well...). Two of the fifteen from my year became professional photographers, either full or part-time.
Our sister courses: graphic design and fashion design produced even fewer people making into their respective industries, judging from my Facebook and Freinds Reunited pages.

Arts courses are a nice, soft, cushy way of avoiding having to think about the real world for a few years while you weigh up your options. Being 'creative' is in vogue at the moment.
Someone here mentioned architects: my brother studied at Brighton Uni and 15 years on, he's the only one from his graduating year working in architecture in any way at all...
Not because they're not qualified, but because they can't be bothered once they realise what hard work is required to actually make it happen in the real world...
it's easier to get into Uni than it is to get a proper job and that's why Uni is such an attractive option.

Well sorry but Uni now looks like it's going to reflect the realities of life outside the halls of academia. Pay your way and work harder.

Reminds me of a scene in 'Red Dwarf' in which Lister is talking to Rimmer about qualifications ....

Lister tells Rimmer he was accepted at art college, but dropped out on his first day when he learned his schedule would include lectures "first thing in the afternoon"

 

[whatdoesthisbutt]

Are we lumping students in with the useless scroungers?

I guess you won't be seeing your accountant any time soon to count your pennies then? He'll be a graduate won't he?!

Or, heaven forbid you should require either a solicitor or a barrister soon...they'll be graduates too won't they?!

Well, since you don't want to fund "useless scroungers" perhaps you'd better do your own accounts and defend yourself if you ever fall foul of the law.

Not once did I label students as scroungers......

Don't forget that we hope he never needs a doctor, or any offspring need schooling.

I often need doctors and have children in mainstream schools.....

Not all student are idle scrotes, but there are plenty who do fall into that category.
The hard-working ones were probably still in lectures while 'that lot' were smashing up private property and having a jolly good laugh...

. it's easier to get into Uni than it is to get a proper job and that's why Uni is such an attractive option.

Well sorry but Uni now looks like it's going to reflect the realities of life outside the halls of academia. Pay your way and work harder.

Life is hard and requires hard work to be comfortable, be it on the end of a stethoscope or a shovel.
Having a career with a high earning potential would, I suspect, have a large proportion of quality learnin' involved in its early stages. That costs money, why wouldn't students pay for that?

If you have the dream of bieng a doctor, and have the mental capacity to complete the studies, but dont have the money to pay for the course, you have to borrow the money.

Or it just remains a dream....

 

[jamesb84]

If you have the dream of bieng a doctor, and have the mental capacity to complete the studies, but dont have the money to pay for the course, you have to borrow the money.

Or it just remains a dream....

So despite the repeating arguments that people shouldn't be saddling themselves with debt...you still think it's right that one should borrow £50k+ to go to university?

Where exactly do you propose getting this money from as well?! Try going to the bank and saying "I really want to be a doctor, can I have £50k to go to uni?"

See how far that gets you

 

[DemiLion]

Where exactly do you propose getting this money from as well?! Try going to the bank and saying "I really want to be a doctor, can I have £50k to go to uni?"

See how far that gets you

It's not as far fetched as you think. In the days before salaried pupillage for barristers, almost all clearing banks had facilities for reduced interest long term loans for those who had passed Bar School. I can see that returning in a more general sense, if it hasn't already, for professions that require extended study following their initial degree.

 

[gramps]

So despite the repeating arguments that people shouldn't be saddling themselves with debt...you still think it's right that one should borrow £50k+ to go to university?

Where exactly do you propose getting this money from as well?! Try going to the bank and saying "I really want to be a doctor, can I have £50k to go to uni?"

See how far that gets you

But you don't do you?
You pay after you've done the study and got the job that pays at least the minimum stated salary ... if you don't you simply don't pay ... and you know what, most graduates will never pay back what they have been advanced.

 

[Arkady]

...If you have the dream of bieng a doctor, and have the mental capacity to complete the studies, but dont have the money to pay for the course, you have to borrow the money...

Or have parents who are prepared to work 24-7 in a grotty corner convenience store to fund their children's aspirations...

My daughter won't be paying her Uni fees: I will...that's the whole point.
From next month onwards...all my income is hers, not mine to pee away on cars and toys.

 

[ding76uk]

Well training soldiers is expensive, why don't we ask them to pay for their basic training? That would save a hell of a lot of money!

We are set to have the highest fees in the world if what is planned comes into effect. I really don't get what people are going on about when they say you pay after you have finished uni.

YOU STILL ARE £40K plus IN DEBT for studying.

Have you got any figures to back up your most students never pay back their loan? Would love to see them, or is it just based on hearsay?

 

[gramps]

I really don't get what people are going on about when they say you pay after you have finished uni.

It's a fact - you won't pay until you start to earn above the threshold; nobody pays in advance or along the way.

Have you got any figures to back up your most students never pay back their loan? Would love to see them, or is it just based on hearsay?

Have you got any stats that they will? ... No because the new 'deal' has only just been brought in.

People have always had to support themselves with accommodation, food and books etc for Uni ... this is something entirely different, my mum supported me with accommodation, food and extras when I went to school!

 

[Arkady]

Well training soldiers is expensive, why don't we ask them to pay for their basic training? That would save a hell of a lot of money!

It's a job, plus students don't get killed or maimed by IEDs in lectures.
Pretty crass of you considering yesterday was Remembrance Day...

 

[ding76uk]

Have you got any stats that they will? ... No because the new 'deal' has only just been brought in.

Difference is I am not the one saying that they wont get paid back at all unlike yourself.

I meant that £40k plus of debt when you are 21 is a ridiculous burden to put onto young people.

The whole thing of if you want to train you have to pay should be extended to the army. People are going there to learn a career, therefore according to a lot of logic on here they should pay to learn. Not until after they are qualified soldiers on duty though will they have to pay back their money. Could save us billions

 

[coldpenguin]

Yes, I think that soldiers are different to students.
As I understand it, you still have to sign up for a minimum tour-term?
Thus really, soldiering should be considered on-the-job training, just you don't get to talk to customers for a little while to begin with.


Trying to find out information on how many students don't pay their loans back.
But all I am getting back from google, are sites upon sites stating to Students that they shouldn't pay back their loans, even if they have savings and no other debts.
Crazy.
And people wonder where the ideas about students not paying back come from.

 

[Arkady]

Yes, I think that soldiers are different to students.
As I understand it, you still have to sign up for a minimum tour-term?
Thus really, soldiering should be considered on-the-job training, just you don't get to talk to customers for a little while to begin with.

Training is 21 weeks plus special-to-arms training on top of that. Further training is conducted at local unit level once the soldier has passed from the training regiment to his parent battalion. An Infantry soldier would therefore not be considered fully-trained until 18 months into his contract.

Depending on what additional courses you opt for, further time-barring (lengthening your contract) applies.
My career photo course for example lasted six months, gave me additional civilian qulaifications, an 'M' BIPP and resulted in a 5-year time bar before I was eligible to leave the Army (not that I did - I extended twice). My Senior Photo course gave me additional 'A' BIPP points and another 24-month time-bar.
So we can't just get trained-up and leave - we get to put those skills to use for the Army's (and the Country's) benefit...

Talking to customers only works if they're prepared to listen. By the time we get involved it's usually degenerated beyond that stage, so we use more obvious methods...

 

[gramps]

Difference is I am not the one saying that they wont get paid back at all unlike yourself.

I meant that £40k plus of debt when you are 21 is a ridiculous burden to put onto young people.

The whole thing of if you want to train you have to pay should be extended to the army. People are going there to learn a career, therefore according to a lot of logic on here they should pay to learn. Not until after they are qualified soldiers on duty though will they have to pay back their money. Could save us billions

If you think every graduate will pay their loans back you are in cloud cuckoo land - £40k debt is nothing if you are given a lifetime of good earnings to repay it ... remember without the privileged education you wouldn't be getting the pay. But it's a moot point as most graduates never go on to gain such employment anyway, many get married and raise children (good on them) and many more just slum through life at other people's expense. Those that will have to pay back will be financially able to do so.

As for the army, you're talking to an anti-war, anti-weapons type of guy but even so, don't equate student employment with the employment of those passing through Wooton Bassett in the big black cars ... it's a non-starter!

 

[DemiLion]

The whole thing of if you want to train you have to pay should be extended to the army. People are going there to learn a career, therefore according to a lot of logic on here they should pay to learn. Not until after they are qualified soldiers on duty though will they have to pay back their money. Could save us billions

I think that Arkady explained this best in his reply to your first inane suggestion. He was also considerably politer that I'm inclined to be.

I'd just add that soldiers not only stand the chance of being killed in their job, but also whilst training for it. The same applies to the Police and Fire Service.

 

[dod]

I'd love to get involved with this

But it's sooooooooooo close to politics

 

[gramps]

I'd love to get involved with this

But it's sooooooooooo close to politics

Clear the way there, this is a 'no-mod' sort of thread!

 

[whatdoesthisbutt]

Difference is I am not the one saying that they wont get paid back at all unlike yourself.

I meant that £40k plus of debt when you are 21 is a ridiculous burden to put onto young people.

The whole thing of if you want to train you have to pay should be extended to the army. People are going there to learn a career, therefore according to a lot of logic on here they should pay to learn. Not until after they are qualified soldiers on duty though will they have to pay back their money. Could save us billions

40K of debt is a burden you MUST undertake if you want the higher earning career a degree should help you get.
It's piffle in comparison to a mortgage which is the long term way to lend money to buy a house. Your extra education is the same, you borrow money over a long term to get something you want in the short term.....the degree
That same degree should allow you to start a career which earns you plenty of money, a small portion of which goes to pay back the original loan.

The reference to soldiers is wrong, and poorly timed.

 

[Photo Plod]

I can't comment too much as it is a live investigation. However, a man has been arrested from Anglia Ruskin University on suspicion of Violent Disorder for throwing a fire extinguisher from the top of Millbank Tower. The Met Police have now arrested 54 people in connection with the incident.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11747571

 

[cambsno]

Everyone should have the right to free education to the level they desire.

No. Everyone should have the right to free education to teach them to 18, when they become an adult - teaching reading, writing, languages, science etc... After that, we should encourage people to do apprenticeships equally as much as universities. I would have no problem with uni's being free on 2 conditions:

- Raise the entry level for free. If you really want to go, fight for your place. Prove you are worth this valuable resource by working hard. Why should someone getting E, F, N get a uni place for free?
- Keep uni's free for people doing worthwhile degrees... science, engineering, nursing, law... not free for media studies or American Studies. If you want to do a degree like those or Lady Gaga you can, but you pay for it as it is of no benefit to the taxpayer. Likewise, if you cant be bothered to get decent A Level grades and want to do a degree, pay for it.

 

[ding76uk]

It's a job, plus students don't get killed or maimed by IEDs in lectures.
Pretty crass of you considering yesterday was Remembrance Day...

Same way a doctor or teacher is a job. Not being crass at all.

I have nothing but respect for those who gave their life when they had no choice and were conscripted, but if you choose the army as a career you know what you what risks are when you sign up, no one forces you to.

Sorry but that is fact, I know I will not be popular with that statement but it is true. If you decide to be a fireman, you know the risk, same for the police, same for the army.

What about doctors who save lives every day, or teachers who put up with everything they have to.

Drug workers who put up with terrible situations, whose job descriptions that need a degree to help people.

Doctors who get attacked on a Saturday night by a drunken idiot, teachers who get beaten and stabbed by students. They face being killed or maimed.

Do they deserve to have to be £40k plus in debt to do a very noble deed, which like it or not is just as important to this country as someone in the army.

You choose your career, you know the risks.

 

[KayJay]

To be fair though, the salary of a doctor would probably clear any debt accumulated through their studies within in a few years. It's not like students are going to spend their entire lives in debt. Education is no longer cheap, but you need to adapt to it and be smart with your money. I'm not saying I agree with increases in educational costs but you have to consider the climate we are all part of.

 

[SK617]

Well i'll chime in I think.
Soldiers paying for their training? Barking idea, please stay off the hallucigens!

Today i watched 2 platoons pass off the square, average age of about 18. They have just spent 12 weeks being turned from school kids into something resmebling a soldier, during that time they will have been pushed further mentally and physically than most of them thought possible. Would they have paid for it? I doubt that very much.

I have been in for 17 years now, i have 2 seperate vocational quals at level 3 ( one in comms equipment installation, one in engineering) i also have HGV, several examiners quals and was a motorbike instructor. Should I have paid for these? Im not sure but do civvi firms make their prospective employees pay for their training?

Should we ask the police to fund their own training like the US do? Should the fireman who comes to put out your house fire have had to fork out for the pleasure of runningminto a burning building?

I do however agree the fact that the brightest should be helped via bursaries, scholarships etc, especially if doing courses that will help us as a nation, doctors, midwives, teaxhers, scientists etc, however, if you want to study the mating habits of celebs etc, then guess what, pay for it!

I am about to embark on an OU degree, which I will have to pay for, i am doing this as I want to have the best shot at a decent job when i leave the forces, do I expect it on a plate, no, i intend to work damn hard. Something that seems lacking as an ethos these days

 

[Photo Plod]

Should we ask the police to fund their own training like the US do?

You weren't to know this, but Surrey police started doing exactly that - and other forces were about to follow suit, including the Met - before there was a general recruitment freeze. The idea abhorred me, since police "qualifications" are inherently useless outside the police, and I think training is much better conducted in a residential establishment, like what I went through for 18 weeks.

Anyway, back on topic

 

[The pokemon kid]

40K of debt is a burden you MUST undertake if you want the higher earning career a degree should help you get.

This is just for paying the tuition fees. you also have to pay for accommodation, food, electricity, water and even gas bills. It all starts to mount up.

 

[ding76uk]

We freeze immigration which is going to hurt the NHS anyways with the struggle to find specialists, yet we now expect the following:

9000 x 7 = £63000 for fees only! Add £3000 per year living costs = £21000

So to become a doctor will cost around £84000

And we wonder why a lot of health specialists come from abroad.

Should we ask the police to fund their own training like the US do? Should the fireman who comes to put out your house fire have had to fork out for the pleasure of runningminto a burning building?

No, but should teachers have to get into £30 000 plus worth of debt to teach our children, should doctors have to take mortgage sized loans to cure the sick?

 

[cambsno]

Remember its UP TO £9000 so could be less?

And what about getting part time jobs, especially in the summer? That should offset the living costs?

A friend of mine trained to be a pilot. Had to take a year 'off work' and had a £60k debt (bond). 5 years on, and he has almost paid it off.

Anyway Carl, I agree that medical degrees for example should be free, just not the Mickey Mouse ones!

 

[SK617]

You weren't to know this, but Surrey police started doing exactly that - and other forces were about to follow suit, including the Met - before there was a general recruitment freeze. The idea abhorred me, since police "qualifications" are inherently useless outside the police, and I think training is much better conducted in a residential establishment, like what I went through for 18 weeks.

Anyway, back on topic

Well i never knew that!

Maybe the idea could have merit, a central 'police academy' with central standards rather than different training types dependent on force. Would that cut costs, or is training really that different for those from deepest darkest hickville and those from london? But thatsprobably for another thread

 

[The pokemon kid]

We freeze immigration which is going to hurt the NHS anyways with the struggle to find specialists, yet we now expect the following:

9000 x 7 = £63000 for fees only! Add £3000 per year living costs = £21000

So to become a doctor will cost around £84000

And we wonder why a lot of health specialists come from abroad.



No, but should teachers have to get into £30 000 plus worth of debt to teach our children, should doctors have to take mortgage sized loans to cure the sick?

When i was in my final year of college the teachers were saying it should be a maximum of £6000 for student accommodation. that is £116 p/w. This is also what London south bank says : http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/current.student/costOfLiving.shtml

But if you look on this student accommodation site. a lot of the houses are a lot more expensive...
http://www.accommodationforstudents.com/London.asp

But i guess its what sort of house and the lifestyle you live that comes down to how much you spend on accommodation and living costs.

 

[Arkady]

This is just for paying the tuition fees. you also have to pay for accommodation, food, electricity, water and even gas bills. It all starts to mount up.

As others have pointed out: everyone has to pay for accommodation, food, water and electricity/gas bills...

Or did you think that those things are somehow free after you leave uni and get a job?

 

[david1701]

As others have pointed out: everyone has to pay for accommodation, food, water and electricity/gas bills...

Or did you think that those things are somehow free after you leave uni and get a job?

the argument goes that for those doing the involved courses (engineering/med/anything 20 contact hour+) you don't have time to run a job and do the required reading, 2 hours of private study per contact hour is the bare minimum to work properly and thats a 60 hour week

and you do need to pay back those living loans.....

 

[Arkady]

the argument goes that for those doing the involved courses (engineering/med/anything 20 contact hour+) you don't have time to run a job and do the required reading, 2 hours of private study per contact hour is the bare minimum to work properly and thats a 60 hour week

and you do need to pay back those living loans.....

Suck it up and get back to the books then...nobody forced you to enrol...

 

[The pokemon kid]

As others have pointed out: everyone has to pay for accommodation, food, water and electricity/gas bills...

Or did you think that those things are somehow free after you leave uni and get a job?

I didn't think they were free at all. it is just that there isn't a lot of time for certain students to be able to have a work as already mentioned. also many employers wont take on certain students because of their erratic learning hours. I do see your point about not being forced into University but it generally it is the way to go for most young people. Unfortunately if the price does change then there could be a lot of people not being able to afford to go to university.

I will say though. The fees for certain students may be lower through government grants, parents paying and subsidisation.

 

[david1701]

Suck it up and get back to the books then...nobody forced you to enrol...

but thats what I'm saying, we want (hehehe I stole your thing) people doing certain degrees and would be fairly boned if they never started because they didn't think they'd make the money (think nurses)