Student Riot in London

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Those who study teaching work long hours to get their degree, and have you seen the teaching pay scales! Not exactly a pot of gold at the end of the degree.

Really? A starting salary of £20k (more in London), defined progression up the pay scale each year*, the ability to earn extra on top of the basic salary by taking on extra responsibilities... Blimey, they're practially working for free :bonk:

And it's not like the the pay is a surprise, is it? You don't finish a teaching degree and suddenly go "oh, is that all they pay. Well, if only I'd known!"

I'm not denying it's hard work, I'm married to a primary teacher who's also on SLT so I know exactly what's involved.
Funnily enough, the last thing she complains about is the money.

* Yes, I know their pay is frozen at the moment, but that's only the amount paid for each point on the pay scale. Progression up the scale isn't frozen so all teachers will get a raise each year.
 
Everyone gets the right to a basic education which can include A levels and that's funded by the taxpayer.
University produces three basic results:-

  1. Graduate who leaves and ends up working in Tescos, McDonalds and the like.
  2. Graduate who leaves with a non-descript 'ology' and contributes no further to society, often actually costing society even more money.
  3. Graduate who goes on to get a reasonanly well paid career.


Nos 1 and 2 don't end up paying back the taxpayer loan at all because they don't go on to earn enough; no 3 starts paying back after passing the threshold, small inconvenience for those who make university pay e.g. law/science/medical (read 'useful to society').


1 and 2 shouldn't have gone in the first place.
 
Really? A starting salary of £20k (more in London), defined progression up the pay scale each year*, the ability to earn extra on top of the basic salary by taking on extra responsibilities... Blimey, they're practially working for free :bonk:

And it's not like the the pay is a surprise, is it? You don't finish a teaching degree and suddenly go "oh, is that all they pay. Well, if only I'd known!"

I'm not denying it's hard work, I'm married to a primary teacher who's also on SLT so I know exactly what's involved.
Funnily enough, the last thing she complains about is the money.

* Yes, I know their pay is frozen at the moment, but that's only the amount paid for each point on the pay scale. Progression up the scale isn't frozen so all teachers will get a raise each year.

The amount of debt you need to take on to get there. The work that is involved when you are there. I am also a teacher, but what I am saying is they wonder why the teacher shortage, when they are proposing to make £27k tuition fees plus living expenses in debt to get a starting salary of £20k, which is good in a rural area, but in London even with the benefit is poor.

Here is the main pay scale:

______________Inner London
Max---£31,552--- £36,387
Min---£21,588---£27,000



Now lets look at a McDonalds Trainee business Manager

McDonald’s will provide the candidate with a package of professional rewards that includes a starting salary of up to £21,500 including London weighting (£3,000 in inner London and £1,500 in our South East region). Within weeks of joining, there is the potential of a quarterly bonus.

In under three years, the candidate could be running their own restaurant and could be earning a salary package worth £45'000
 
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Everyone gets the right to a basic education which can include A levels

Why A levels though? What difference do they make if you are not going to university? You could save a lot of money there.

Used to be the right to a free education to degree level, so why stop there. There are many more kids dossing at A levels than at University.
 
I think that you might want to improve your research a bit:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-1155061

"Currently universities are given around £11bn in government grants a year - this covers undergraduate and post-graduate teaching, research funding and infrastructure." 15 October 2010

Your link doesn't work. Can you post the correct one so I can have a read. but my figures are just for the teaching budget.
 
The amount of debt you need to take on to get there. The work that is involved when you are there. I am also a teacher, but what I am saying is they wonder why the teacher shortage, when they are proposing to make £27k tuition fees plus living expenses in debt to get a starting salary of £20k, which is good in a rural area, but in London even with the benefit is poor.

Here is the main pay scale:

______________Inner London
Max---£31,552--- £36,387
Min---£21,588---£27,000



Now lets look at a McDonalds Trainee business Manager

McDonald’s will provide the candidate with a package of professional rewards that includes a starting salary of up to £21,500 including London weighting (£3,000 in inner London and £1,500 in our South East region). Within weeks of joining, there is the potential of a quarterly bonus.

In under three years, the candidate could be running their own restaurant and could be earning a salary package worth £45'000

Sorry - what's your argument. For McDonalds you get to go to university - the Hambuger University
http://www.aboutmcdonalds.com/mcd/careers/hamburger_university.html
 
Personally, I think the proposal of making Students pay for their further education is a good one. It can only lead to a leaner and better system. The students will demand quality courses/tuition etc... for their money, and the ones that are there will be the ones that want to learn, rather than just drink subsidised larger and shag freshers for three years.

However, if they're gonna pay, they need time to gear up for this. The Amaericals pay all their kidsr "college" fees, but parents there start saving for that when they're kids are born.
As we've not been given this prior warning, the govt have had to bring in the "learn now; pay later" scheme that we're being lumbered with, and I completely agree that this is wrong!

they wonder why the teacher shortage

What shortage? With falling rolls in most areas and the influx of people who retrained as teachers via one of the alternative access paths when they lost their private sector jobs during the last downturn, is there actually a shortage?
I appreciate that a couple of areas like maths and science struggle to fill positions, but that's the same as me saying there's a shortage of IT people just because I can't find the FORTRAN programmer I need for a vancancy.
 
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It will make universities a place where only the wealthy can afford, therefore creating a huge class divide within society.

Those who study teaching work long hours to get their degree, and have you seen the teaching pay scales! Not exactly a pot of gold at the end of the degree.

I do not think that your first statement is somewhere where we want to be (i.e., I agree). Everyone who is /capable/ should have the oportunity to go to university, however...


Everyone gets the right to a basic education which can include A levels and that's funded by the taxpayer.
University produces three basic results:-

  1. Graduate who leaves and ends up working in Tescos, McDonalds and the like.
  2. Graduate who leaves with a non-descript 'ology' and contributes no further to society, often actually costing society even more money.
  3. Graduate who goes on to get a reasonanly well paid career.

If someone is going to university, to perform a degree with the attitude that they will be in items 1 or 2 above, this is not in the original 'ethos' of what a university should be.
They were intended for people to perform higher level learning and research in items which benefit mankind. Both through the arts and sciences.
Some would argue that a lady Gaga degree is a worthwhile arts study (I personally do not think so, but have to admit to not having researched this myself).

There are some which go to university with the attitude that they will coast for 3 or 4 years. It is this that I do not agree with.

Those that are there to learn, should be able to, for free. However, there is nothing free in this world, someone needs to pay for it. So I think a PAYE repayment scheme is fairer.

This doesn't cover the situation where someone just coasts through though. I don't know how you deter this. How do you deter someone from just sitting on benefits any way?

My sister in law, and her husband are both teachers, and went the university route to gain the qualifications necessary. They struggle. They don't even have guaranteed jobs any more.

If the average wage for a teacher starting is now £20k, that is much higher than the average wage was for people off of my degree, £14k.

Now, if someone goes to university and gets their degree, then goes to work as a manager at McD. at £45k, then there should be re-imbursement of the fees as a PAYE tax.

Do builders need degrees at university? Do we have enough young people becoming builders, or do we have people complaining that people from abroad are coming in and performing jobs which young people believe they are below them now, because they could go to university and get a degree in anything.
 
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What shortage? With falling rolls in most areas and the influx of people who retrained as teachers via one of the alternative access paths when they lost their private sector jobs during the last downturn, is there actually a shortage?
I appreciate that a couple of areas like maths and science struggle to fill positions, but that's the same as me saying there's a shortage if IT people just because I can't find the FORTRAN programmer I need for a vancancy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-16644/Teacher-shortage-reaching-crisis-levels.html
 
Why A levels though? What difference do they make if you are not going to university? You could save a lot of money there.

Used to be the right to a free education to degree level, so why stop there. There are many more kids dossing at A levels than at University.

You do have a point - certianly for some of the colleges teaching more vocational stuff. As said in previous post, many do not wantto be there and are there just so that Mum can claim more benefits. They are also taking up places from people who really want to be there. They are also the type of people who see Mum living nicely off benefits so whats the point in working?

The issue this is that we seem to be obsessed with putting people into FE for the sake of it. So that it 'looks good'. I am happy with college being funded
to 18, as the costs are just for the courses, no unpaid student loans or , grants as they live with parents. I think that certain degrees (like nursing for example something useful where a degree is necessary like to become a teacher or architecht, should be free of any fees, and any loan (within reason) written off after so many years in that type of job. This way you can go to uni and put it to good use and it wont cost a penny.

If though you decide to do media studies, you pay for it, and if you are in debt then thats down to you. The taxpayer should not be funding lifestyle degrees.

Also raise the entry levels. Make it something like a C & D minimum needed and you get it free or something like that. Reward people who work hard.

There is too much snobbery about degrees and looking down on trades. One regret is actually studying - with hindsight, getting to into a trade like plumbing 20 years ago would probably have been far better for me, but like others, i was brainwashed into thinking qualifications are good and trades are not.
 
This doesn't cover the situation where someone just coasts through though. I don't know how you deter this.

I think we both agree this is the crux of the problem. As you mention, is it better to put people through university than have them sat on benefits?

How it changes I don't know, but increasing fees to a level that will put some people off is not the answer, it may deter those who coast, but it will also deter those who could have great professional careers but do not want to face the debt.
 
Now lets look at a McDonalds Trainee business Manager

McDonald’s will provide the candidate with a package of professional rewards that includes a starting salary of up to £21,500 including London weighting (£3,000 in inner London and £1,500 in our South East region). Within weeks of joining, there is the potential of a quarterly bonus.

In under three years, the candidate could be running their own restaurant and could be earning a salary package worth £45'000

So, as you've very succinctly pointed out, why bother going to uni then? Problem solved.
After 3 years (when you'd have graduated £30k in debt) you'll have a nice £45k/year job.

In reality, very few on the scheme make it to the end. And the journey there is tough. All things being equal, I'd choose teaching over being a McDonalds manager even though it pays less (I worked at McDs during my uni years, so I know whats involved).

If you want to be further outraged, have a google for the Aldi management training scheme and peoples experiences of it. They pay them a small fortune, but work them like dogs for the duration of it. Toughest shceme in the industry apparently.
If they complete it though (and not very many do) then you're set for life in that industry,
 
ColdPenguin - being a teacher is probably the safest job you can have. The one thing we do and will continue to need is teachers. Almost the only way to lose a job in a school is to fiddle or hit a child. One of my friends earns £38k as a primary teacher, and gets 13 weeks holiday a year. He works no harder than most of us do and has a great pension and job security.

What else annoys me is the way people are justifying the protests. Do people not read the papers? We are skint as a country. In an ideal world OAPs would get £200 a week from 60, no hospital waiting lists, free prescriptions for all, free uni.... BUT we dont live in that world and money is finite.
 
Why should I pay for someone to go to Uni to undertake what on the majority are useless qualifications? Why does a degree take 3 years?

Well said Dave, whats so wrong in working and paying your own fees to put you through Uni/college, i've always thought the system is wrong why can't students work part time and go to Uni part time and take a lot of the burden from the tax payer, another thing which seems to be getting rife by students is as soon as they qualify and get their degrees they pay £500 to go bankrupt and get rid of all their loans, nice work if you can get it !

So the student ultimately pays for their own degrees.

Yep and so they should :|
 
.....another thing which seems to be getting rife by students is as soon as they qualify and get their degrees they pay £500 to go bankrupt and get rid of all their loans....

They haven't been able to do that since 2004 when student loans became non provable, in the same way that mortgages are.
 
Well said Dave, whats so wrong in working and paying your own fees to put you through Uni/college, i've always thought the system is wrong why can't students work part time and go to Uni part time and take a lot of the burden from the tax payer, another thing which seems to be getting rife by students is as soon as they qualify and get their degrees they pay £500 to go bankrupt and get rid of all their loans, nice work if you can get it !

How do you think the labour market would respond to 500,000 new part-time workers hitting the scene?
 
For the most of us we just haven't got the time for all of this as we're too busy working in order to pay the taxes to keep No 2 in beer and fags, supplement the earnings of No 1 and pay the benefits that enable others to have the free time to trash property in the name of 'lawful protest'!
 
Student says ...... It's NOT FAIR ......... :dummy: :beer:
 
People should always protest at things they believe to be unjust.

How about Simon we up the tax you pay every year. We are skint after all. When it affects you personally it is very different.

That is happening, I am getting more (or will have) taken through tax and also missing out on things because of cutbacks, but thats life. We cannot put our heads in the sand and hope it goes away. Like I keep saying, if you have an income of £2k and outgoings of £2500 you must reduce them, even if it means you live on bread for 3 days the week and have to wear 2 jumpers to cut back on heating.

Re: the banks. Like it or not, banks are vital. If one went bust then many people would lose savings - plus if the banks totally fall over, then we have serious problems as an economy and would end up being a 3rd world country. Not defending them or actions taken but those are the facts!
 
They haven't been able to do that since 2004 when student loans became non provable, in the same way that mortgages are.

Ok i may stand corrected on that, although i was sure i read something about students doing it quite recently.

How do you think the labour market would respond to 500,000 new part-time workers hitting the scene?

So presumably when these 500,000 people finish their degree courses they go and look for jobs, and the market still has to respond, or am i missing something :thinking: oh yes they go for their doss year off, oops sorry i mean gap year
 
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I'm going to defend the students. Have you seen the guys smashing all the stuff up, in balaclava's and full criminal gear, clearly just local criminals getting an excuse to enjoy themselves. At the end of the day it was a protest and was definately noticed. Media companies love moral panics and this is no exception
 
being a teacher is probably the safest job you can have.

If, and it's a big if, you can get a job as a teacher at all - any idea of the statistics of graduate teachers that are unemployed or working in poorly paid, menial jobs? It's a huge amount; massive.

The vast majority of my daughters Uni teaching class from 3 years ago have no job, have never managed to get one, and don't hold out much hope of getting one either.

Nothing is a done deal these days where employment is concerned....
 
I get the distinct inference that when mentioning G12 that you condoned some of those events.... The main ones we will mostly remember is an innocent man being attacked by a police officer and dying as a result

Hello, my armchair friend. That is a huge leap to make - because I questioned whether we had softened our tactics for fear of media criticism in the wake of the G20, I'm somehow approving of the actions that led to the death of a member of public?

What an utterly contemptuous remark.

As it happens, back at the time of the G20 in 2009, I was a uniformed officer and I was actually there, on the frontline. It doesn't mean I believe in excessive force, gratuitous violence or police impunity.

Give me strength.
 
I'm going to defend the students. Have you seen the guys smashing all the stuff up, in balaclava's and full criminal gear, clearly just local criminals getting an excuse to enjoy themselves. At the end of the day it was a protest and was definately noticed. Media companies love moral panics and this is no exception

Yes clearly...:cuckoo:
 
If, and it's a big if, you can get a job as a teacher at all - any idea of the statistics of graduate teachers that are unemployed or working in poorly paid, menial jobs? It's a huge amount; massive.

The vast majority of my daughters Uni teaching class from 3 years ago have no job, have never managed to get one, and don't hold out much hope of getting one either.

Nothing is a done deal these days where employment is concerned....



I quite agree - however and may be slightly off topic but heavily related but sometimes the Universities are a bit dim and sheltered when trying to recruit students.

After being made redundant in Jul 09, I considered retraining as a primary school teacher - places are crying out for them - so looked into doing a 1 yr PGCE course at local uni.

Basically 1 course that splits down into 6 slightly different variables.

1) Teaching infants / nursery level (no thanks) - vacancies
2) Primary / Middle school - full
3) Secondary school - couple of vacancies but my degree wouldn't be relevant to teaching in a 2y school
4) As 2 but with French - full
5) As 2 but with German - full
6) As 2 but with Spanish - lots of vacancies.

So I thought I'd opt for 6, given 15 years experience in the real world , and oh had also been learning Spanish for 7 years via adult education and private tuition.

"Have you got A level Spanish?"
"No, however, I have been learning it for several years and am quite comfortable in situations such as..........etc etc."
"Well you need A level Spanish don't you?"
"Hmm Adult Education doesn't do A Level Spanish though, I can hardly go back to school and do it can I?"
"But surely the level of Spanish I will be teaching for the relatively small period of time that week, is going to be pretty basic to an 8 yr old isn't it? Hardly up to A level standards"
"But you need A level Spanish"
"Indeed, I hear what you are saying and the reason you probably have lots of vacancies is very few schools around here offer A Level Spanish, compared to the more traditional modern languages. Why don't you have a Spanish student here and then my ability could be judged by a native speaker to assess my ability?"
"As, I said, you need A level Spanish."
"So how about, if my Spanish friend were to apply, you holds a degree from the University of Valladolid, and currently works at City College, teaching English, Maths and Reading to students who couldn't get a grade C at GCSE Levels, was to apply?"
"Well, if he hasn't got an A level in Spanish..............."
 
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I see many on here say the debt will be 40K plus when you take living expense into account, well I'm sorry but living expenses are irrelevant, we all have to pay them, student or not. When I was younger you got a job in summer or like my brother, you did a sandwich course, where you spent time at uni and then time working for your employer.

The cost of uni education has shot up over the years, and fees are the only way to continue.

30 Years ago when it was free, only 5% of children went on to uni and the rest got job and apprenticeships. The general public understood that the uni student would become the nations doctor and teachers or well paid (and well taxed) scientists.

This changed under labour with the stated aim of 50% of children going on to uni, but with a large number doing soft degrees like media studies and the like, the government (and lots of the general public) can see that huge numbers will never pay the cost back in higher taxes with better jobs, nor become a doctor or teacher.

Coldpenguin said in the thread "Personally, what I think would be fair(er), is if a student didn't pay up-front for fees. " well THEY DONT

You pay the money back AFTER you get a job over 21K, if you lose your job or drop below the 21K you don't pay anything. After 30 years the loan is written off no mater how much is still owed.

Now I did hear on the politics show how much you would have to pay each month if you earned 21K and I'm sure it was £20 a month, well I'm, damn sure if I was on over £400 a week I could spare a fiver to pay back my 3 years of education.

Not that it will mater to yesterdays students as hopefully they be spending the next 3 years in the nick.
 
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Now I did hear on the politics show how much you would have to pay each month if you earned 21K and I'm sure it was £20 a month, well I'm, damn sure if I was on over £400 a week I could spare a fiver to pay back my 3 years of education.

Hello whiteflyer... I'm not quite so sure it's that cheap. I'm still paying back a student loan from when I left uni (7 years ago!) and - albeit they missed me for quite some time - I'm now paying back my loan at over £200 a month. My salary is around £35,000 p.a, including overtime, London Weighting and such allowances. I don't know if the repayment rate is lower under this new system, though.
 
with regards to how much and when you pay back your loan i can't remember the percentage of what i need to pay back but i know it is a percentage of everything i earn above 15k pa, which i hope will be as soon as i graduate going on aiming for a first in engineering.

but i do not agree with the proposals that you pay back a percentage of your earnings when you graduate for your entire life which is being thought about at the moment, as why should i pay back more than people that choose a degree which involoves little work just to go to university??
 
oh yes they go for their doss year off, oops sorry i mean gap year

Generalisations are always bad in arguments.

During my "doss year" between A levels and university, aside from a two week holiday I worked full time in an office and took on paid development work at weekends (I couldn't afford a PC compatible then, the employer lent one to me). The money I saved allowed me to graduate with no debt (no savings left either, but no debt).
 
At my current rate of taxation (bear in mind this is self-employed) I pay roughly £1000 a year for my loan. At that rate I will be fully paid off my loan in 23 years. That's an awfully long time, and that's not including any interest, which according to my last "statement" is quite a hefty sum.

Bear in mind also, that the useless £3000pa that I received whilst studying did not count towards my fees or living costs. As a result, my fees were paid on a credit card and my living costs necessitated me using the overdraft facility on my student bank account.

That overdraft facility was withdrawn in October last year, abruptly...ie. no gradual removal. I therefore had to find nearly £900 in one go. Bye-bye all those savings I'd worked hard to get since graduating. I'm still paying off the credit card bill for my last year of fees and thats 3 years since graduating.

My parents were unable to help with costs while at uni, they breached the limit for any assistance grants, but didn't have enough disposable income to help me out...hence why I paid for it.

I was unable to get a job in my degree discipline as the impending financial balls-up meant that Planning Officers weren't being hired...funnily enough when the bubble bursts, construction tends to stop. I was forced to take a job paying £12k as a nursing assistant in the NHS. It was a job I got because I worked in that area during my studies (over holidays etc).

Now, three years down the line, I'm a self-employed photographer and definitely wondering whether it was worth going to uni at all. I'd have £100 a month more in my pocket, wouldn't have paid huge credit card bills for my fees and would have £900 more in savings.

By asking people to pay £9000pa after they graduate is criminal...when you take into account the fact that £3000pa is NOT going to allow you to eat or pay rent at uni, then you're looking at appalling levels of debt. Which will be paid back at a time when you're working for a low salary (very few people go into jobs paying £40k plus straight out of uni) and trying to get on the property ladder/settle down into a home. Not really a fair system is it? All those people that say "well, why should I pay for students?" need to think about how many times a day they are dealt with by a graduate...doctor/nurse/teacher/bank manager/accountant/lawyer. Now think of all the people who you rely on but don't directly deal with...planning officer/architect/engineer/environmental health specialist etc etc. If you don't want to pay for students...then perhaps you shouldn't be using these services?! Everyone benefits from having these people in society, so if you're going to reap the benefit, why shouldn't you contribute towards it?

Through no fault of their own, some students will not get a job related to their degree...and not from doing "mickey mouse" subjects...Town and Country Planning was considered to be a vocational degree, as was Architecture, yet from a graduating class of nearly 200 in those two disciplines, I can count the people who are still working in those sectors on my fingers. 9 people. The vast majority were either made redundant or never got jobs in those sectors in the first place.

All of these things hardly encourage people to go and study do they? Add in a cost of £27,000 just on fees alone...you'd better hope that Cameron keeps having sprogs, or there'll never be any doctors in 30 years time.
 
So there are other posts on this topic saying that teachers can't get jobs teaching and this post saying there are teaching vacancies that can't be filled.

What's the truth?

They do mention the two well known exceptions - one being maths teachers, the other being London. If there's a shortage in London, well, there must be a shortage everywhere. It's the same as the recession being officially over..... but it really only applies to London, so it must be the same everywhere else in the country.... :shrug:
 
So there are other posts on this topic saying that teachers can't get jobs teaching and this post saying there are teaching vacancies that can't be filled.

What's the truth?

There's no date on the web page, but this quote would lead me to blieve that the DM article is a good few years old now:

'There is more to do but at a time of a strong economy and a buoyant graduate recruitment market, the incentives we have introduced are bucking an eight year long decline in teacher recruitment,' said the spokesman.

As mentioned, there are a few areas where there are shortages (both in terms of geography and curriculum area) but there are a lot of people struggling to get teaching jobs.
Even back when the economy was good, my other half struggled to get her first job after her PGCE as every post was ridiculously over subscribed.
 
Another dimension to the argument is that young people today dont seem to want to do manual labour, hence are chasing a university degree, only to have the light dawn at the end of their course that there arent many high flying jobs actually out here.

I'm an engineer in a position which was advertised as requiring a degree as a minimum qualifictaion. I dont have one. I dont have many qualifications as it happens.
What I do have is 20 years experience of starting at the bottom and working hard.

There is a difference between 'dreams' and 'aspirations'. I think we have lost the way and that to have a strong country, needs a strong backbone of hard working individuals doing 'what it takes' to get the job done, not pople who whine at every obstacle in their way. That includes having to pay for a level of education over and above what everyone else receives.
 
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