Student Riot in London

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Photo Plod

Photo Plod

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Much as I decry the introduction of £9000 a year tuition fees, I'm appalled by what's happened today in London. From some of my colleagues at the scene, it has been a day of appalling violence, leading to several of them being hurt. Now, as I watch it from home, I've just seen a clip where people have thrown a fire extinguisher from the top of Millbank at officers down below - an action that could only have fatal consequences if they hadn't have got out of the way.

Although I keep hearing the mantra, "It was only a tiny minority", it doesn't look that way to me, and certainly not all of those involved in the violence are just the usual anarchists. This has been confirmed by one of my public-order friends.

Now, I am listening to the media complain that we "did nothing". We are trapped - do something, get criticised (as in the G20). Go easy, get criticised. The only difference this time is that Millbank Tower has been smashed to pieces and is *still* being occupied by protestors, and its fair to say that we lost the day. Even the Commissioner has said that it is "embarrassing". Welcome to the modern police - shaped by the media and a vociferous section of the public who decry any use of force as brutality.

I'm expecting to be drafted into the post-incident investigation team, as I am based right near to where it all happened. No doubt, we will continue to be criticised and have to labour on. People have tried to kill some of my colleagues today, and I'm thoroughly ****ed off and angry at the whole thing.
 
I'm hacked off, because I was going to photograph it and something else reared its ugly head.

Ref the PIR you might want to PM me. Security at Millbank were warning a few days ago that they expected to be targeted and to say that they are not overly impressed would be an understatement.
 
I was watching it live on BBC news....


and those kids are supposed to be future of this country ...
 
Someone threw a fire extinguisher from the roof at the top of that tower today at the police and people below. A potentially murderous act. I'm all for protest but this isn't protest. It's mindless violence. Disgraced.
 
It looked bloody scary, and there's no justification for throwing things like the extinguisher from the roof - if they wanted media attention, they certainly got it. A lot more than they would have had it remained peaceful.

The French police seem to have to put up with 'protests' like this every other week about one thing or another, but they don't appear to have their hands tied behind their back at the time....
 
Scum absolute scum. I know it is just a minority but it brings them all into disrepute. On the other hand. Why should I pay for someone to go to Uni to undertake what on the majority are useless qualifications? Why does a degree take 3 years? When my ex was at uni 2 of her housemates were doing geography degrees. 7 hours of lectures a week and about the same in self study. Waste of time and my money that would be better spent somewhere else.
 
DemiLion said:
Ref the PIR you might want to PM me. Security at Millbank were warning a few days ago that they expected to be targeted and to say that they are not overly impressed would be an understatement.
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Thanks, DemiLion, but I won't be involved in the review of tactics - that lies with far more senior officers than me. I'm a humble detective, and just hoping to be involved in the investigations of all those not arrested today.

While not comparable to actually having to face it, it makes my blood boil when I see my colleagues - including people I know - on the TV with people literally trying to kill them.

My hope now is that we in the CID rear our collective head and bring as many of them to justice as possible.
 
Photo Plod said:
Although I keep hearing the mantra, "It was only a tiny minority", it doesn't look that way to me, and certainly not all of those involved in the violence are just the usual anarchists. This has been confirmed by one of my public-order friends.
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10'000 people protested, so it is fair to call those who have done this a tiny minority. Unfortunately this is the tip of the iceberg. Prison riots, this, union action upcoming over the way the government have cut public sector to pieces.

Welcome to the tories, bringing life back to the 1980's
 
This thread is sort of skirting around the edge of the no politics rule at the moment. Just keep it friendly people :)
 
Dave Stone said:
Scum absolute scum. I know it is just a minority but it brings them all into disrepute.
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From my colleagues at the scene, while it is a minority out of 50,000, it still amounted to several hundred of them.

We'll hear the speeches from the NUS and various others deploring the violence, but the reality I'm hearing from people who are actually there is that several hundred of them have found this all rather jolly japes and thoroughly exciting.

I hope they don't find it quite so jolly and exciting when they're in an interview room with me, then being charged with Violent Disorder and watching their planned future careers going down the toilet.

And I will not feel even in the slightest bit sympathetic. I have no words to describe how angry I am right now.
 
DekHog said:
The French police seem to have to put up with 'protests' like this every other week about one thing or another, but they don't appear to have their hands tied behind their back at the time....
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Why should people roll over and take it? The way some have acted is disgraceful, but people need to protest over things they do not believe in. Peacefully mind, but again the media and the general public won't pick that up, just the idiots.
 
It is a minority, I was a student back during the poll tax. Most of us were disgusted by the actions of certain elements (SWSS notably) and turned up in large numbers to twart them at SU meetings when they tried to get things like a "student strike" with picket lines through (laughable, since a strike is a withdrawal of labour and it's not like students are employees).

I would guess that 90% of the people on that march are horrified by what happened apparently in their name. Although I'm suprised at the numbers in attendance, as an engineering undergraduate I had 32 hours timetabled each week so no way I could head off to London for the day to wander around waving a placard.
 
As a student I'm disgusted by how many of my 'peers' have acted today. I was invited along to the protests a while ago and was very tempted to go but events like this always seemed somewhat inevitable and are the reason I remained at home...I'm damned happy I did now because I would want no association with conduct like this. Whilst I despise the changes in education coming into effect and fully support the protests, there's no reason why protests should be anything other than peaceful. The events today couldn't have been more counter-constructive to the cause and I fear it will have permanently undermined any possibility of successfully opposing the changes to funding and fees. I only hope every individual responsible is brought to justice; sadly I'd be surprised if more than a dozen see charges.
 
Photo Plod said:
We'll hear the speeches from the NUS and various others deploring the violence, but the reality I'm hearing from people who are actually there is that several hundred of them have found this all rather jolly japes and thoroughly exciting.
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We'll also hear from the police about how they were prepared when in reality they weren't.

Tarring everyone with the same brush does not work, whichever side you are on.
 
When I went to University, I had to see the loss of the grant be replaced by tuition fees... a very similar kick in the nuts to what has been handed to students this week.

It didn't result in smashed up buildings, injured police officers and attempted murder. It also didn't come at a time of massive economic downturn - indeed, it was against the buoyant back end of the late 90's.

Now I'm listening to the, once again, critical and hostile media. As a friend has just said, I'm waiting for the first person to blame us for allowing the damage to the fire extinguisher by not catching it.
 
ding76uk said:
We'll also hear from the police about how they were prepared when in reality they weren't.
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I think the Commissioner was on the air about 3 hours ago saying the exact opposite. Indeed, I believe he has called our response "embarrassing" and started reviewing the way we went about things.

Edit: To quote, "Met Police Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson said the force should have anticipated the level of violence 'better', adding: 'It's not acceptable. It's an embarrassment for London and to us and we have to do something about that."

Never mind, keep on spouting the opposite as if it's the truth.
 
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Photo Plod said:
I think the Commissioner was on the air about 3 hours ago saying the exact opposite. Indeed, I believe he has called our response "embarrassing" and started reviewing the way we went about things.

Edit: To quote, "Met Police Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson said the force should have anticipated the level of violence 'better', adding: 'It's not acceptable. It's an embarrassment for London and to us and we have to do something about that."

Never mind, keep on spouting the opposite as if it's the truth.
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Sorry but that is what you are doing by saying, not a minority, and all found it exciting all this violence etc. Sorry but you are putting a very one sided argument across.

Photo Plod said:
We'll hear the speeches from the NUS and various others deploring the violence, but the reality I'm hearing from people who are actually there is that several hundred of them have found this all rather jolly japes and thoroughly exciting.
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As you said, keep spouting the opposite as if it's the truth
 
I couldn't believe what I was watching this afternoon as the events unfolded at Millbank. As an ex-Met officer I was embarrassed by the way this was handled and the lack of forethought by the senior brass. I used to be a public order/riot trainer that included teaching senior officers on strategy and tactics during instances of violent disorder so I do have a fair idea of what I am talking about.

Granted, this afternoon they eventually did the right thing by gradually pushing back the crowd from the square but it was about two hours too late. My wife had to listen to me ranting about the lack of action and ineptitude as the rioters overran the buildings in question. I also watched in amazement as a police officer was trying very ineffectually to stamp out a flare (which was on concrete and next to a marble pillar) while three feet to his left a rioter was kicking at the plate glass window. That guy should have been taken out immediately along with the other ringleaders at the earliest opportunity. I don't know what they teach these days but we always drilled into our students that you never, ever stand still still in a riot as this allows the other side to re-group and attack in force. Watching them this afternoon certainly made my blood pressure rise. :D

Unfortunately, Photoplod is right in that the police these days are damned if they do and damned if they don't. But to hear the Commissioner and other senior officers stating they were caught by surprise by the criminal element doesn't wash with me. Every major demonstration and particularly one like this has the potential to be infiltrated by the criminal elements and this has gone on for years - NF marches and other protests in the early 80's, the copycat riots of '81, Poll Tax riot, G20 etc etc etc. For them to say they were caught unawares is a cop-out and those in charge should be disciplined for their lack of foresight and planning.
 
ding76uk said:
Sorry but that is what you are doing by saying, not a minority, and all found it exciting all this violence etc. Sorry but you are putting a very one sided argument across.
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I said that it's a minority, but that it still amounts to several hundred people, who aren't all anarchists & hijackers. My point is not to try and be one sided - I can see for myself that not all 50,000 students are involved, and of course the majority will deplore violence - but I'm putting across that this *isn't* just a handful of anarchists who ruined the day, there were many involved who were "actual" students who have found this a bit of a thrill.

That hasn't come from Sky News, the Daily Mail, or any other media outlet, but from my friends who are actually there right now. Tomorrow, I fully expect to be part of the team picking up the investigative pieces.
 
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Hacker said:
Unfortunately, Photoplod is right in that the police these days are damned if they do and damned if they don't. But to hear the Commissioner and other senior officers stating they were caught by surprise by the criminal element doesn't wash with me. Every major demonstration and particularly one like this has the potential to be infiltrated by the criminal elements and this has gone on for years - NF marches and other protests in the early 80's, the copycat riots of '81, Poll Tax riot, G20 etc etc etc. For them to say they were caught unawares is a cop-out and those in charge should be disciplined for their lack of foresight and planning.
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Totally agree, I just hope that those on both sides who did wrong are brought to justice.
 
Photo Plod said:
I said that it's a minority, but that it still amounts to several hundred people, who aren't all anarchists & hijackers.
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Nope there are going to be some idiots there who get caught up in it all not realising, they have ruined the opportunity of getting a job in the industry they went to uni to study as the idiots will have a criminal record.

I feel truly sorry for the police having to deal with this, but as Hacker said, those in charge should have seen it coming. A major protest in London with the current feeling toward the government and their cuts, it was a recipe for trouble and should have been planned for accordingly.
 
ding76uk said:
Nope there are going to be some idiots there who get caught up in it all not realising, they have ruined the opportunity of getting a job in the industry they went to uni to study as the idiots will have a criminal record.

I feel truly sorry for the police having to deal with this, but as Hacker said, those in charge should have seen it coming. A major protest in London with the current feeling toward the government and their cuts, it was a recipe for trouble and should have been planned for accordingly.
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I agree. In fact, I remember someone posting up on the "General" boards last night asking for tips as he was going along to take photos... I was about to chip in and advise him to steer clear of obvious trouble, but went to bed instead.

I wonder if the issue isn't so much that the Met didn't plan, but that the Met was trying out its post-G20 revised public order tactics, which led to them not deploying sufficient numbers of properly-equipped officers for fear of media criticism. Hopefully, this will be sorted by the Commissioner's review.
 
Photo Plod said:
I agree. In fact, I remember someone posting up on the "General" boards last night asking for tips as he was going along to take photos... I was about to chip in and advise him to steer clear of obvious trouble, but went to bed instead.
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I'm rather hoping that he might end up posting some of his photographs.

Remember my Sect 19 comment? ;)
 
ding76uk said:
Nope there are going to be some idiots there who get caught up in it all not realising, they have ruined the opportunity of getting a job in the industry they went to uni to study as the idiots will have a criminal record.

I feel truly sorry for the police having to deal with this, but as Hacker said, those in charge should have seen it coming. A major protest in London with the current feeling toward the government and their cuts, it was a recipe for trouble and should have been planned for accordingly.
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If those 'idiots' as you call them didn't realise what was happening, then their education certainly hasn't done them any favours. These people have contributed nothing, they've seen fit to wreck a building, injured several Police officers and tried to kill them! ..... They should be made to pay both financially and through serious punishment of several years in prison at the very least.

My thoughts as I watched it on TV when I saw them throw the extinguisher from the top of the building were .... I hope the place burns down, with them in it!
 
Photo Plod said:
I wonder if the issue isn't so much that the Met didn't plan, but that the Met was trying out its post-G20 revised public order tactics, which led to them not deploying sufficient numbers of properly-equipped officers for fear of media criticism. Hopefully, this will be sorted by the Commissioner's review.
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Too little too late IMO. There are always investigations following major public disorder (although I would class this one as non-major) and do they take heed of any recommendations? Answers on a postcard to......

Metropolitan police commissioner, Sir Paul Stephenson, said the force should have anticipated the level of violence "better", adding: "It is not acceptable. "It's an embarrassment for London and for us."

He said his officers would go through a "thorough operation to get full control of the building", and there would be full investigations.

The message to the protesters was that they could not get away with "that kind of behaviour in daylight on the streets of London", he said.
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They should have thought of that prior to the event instead of risking the lives of front-line officers and "that kind of behaviour" could, and should, have been dealt with from the outset.
 
Maybe the Tories will now realise that binning Smith's Square really was an error.

It would have been a dammed sight easier to cordon and defend. Not to mention the lack of acres of shiny plate glass.

Having said that, I'd rather see an architectural monstrosity like Millbank trashed than Georgian town houses.
 
DekHog said:
The French police seem to have to put up with 'protests' like this every other week about one thing or another, but they don't appear to have their hands tied behind their back at the time....
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Me and the wife got mixed up in a riot in Paris about 15 years ago, we were just coming over the steps that fall in line with the eiffel tower, heard nothing till we were over the ridge on the other side then all hell broke loose no warning nothing just us two and about 10,000 frogs that came from nowhere hundreds of police and these rather imposing water canon :D

grabbed her hand head down and went for the nearest clearing :thumbs:i dragged her across town shoving a few out of the way, we got hit with the spray of the water canon but only showered, the frogs where ripping up everything they could find to throw, favourite were telephone hand sets:cuckoo:there was one missing from every kiosk.


Merc
 
I'm quite glad i don't live at home any more as no doubt my dad has been shouting at the telly and getting very angry about the days events. Hes ex met himself with many friends still in, I can almost hear his angered complainings from here.

Dispicable behaviour regardless of how many were involved, that "rather large" minority is what the media report on, not the peaceful protesters, so that is what everyone around the UK and indeed (owing to the chinese whispers effect of the internet) around the world.
 
just wanted to say I dont envy the Police their job..and I do appreciate them

there was a fatal [I am told] stabbing of a 14year old boy at 2pm today in a block of flats in Cambuslang, Glasgow

I was parked outside in my taxi by chance

a young PC and a WPC arrived first and entered the building.... they were prepared to enter to protect the residents ............yet will receive no thanks from said residents which is typical i'm afraid

[ dont know if terms PC and WPC is correct but you get the picture]
 
Photo Plod said:
From my colleagues at the scene, while it is a minority out of 50,000, it still amounted to several hundred of them.

We'll hear the speeches from the NUS and various others deploring the violence, but the reality I'm hearing from people who are actually there is that several hundred of them have found this all rather jolly japes and thoroughly exciting.

I hope they don't find it quite so jolly and exciting when they're in an interview room with me, then being charged with Violent Disorder and watching their planned future careers going down the toilet.

And I will not feel even in the slightest bit sympathetic. I have no words to describe how angry I am right now.
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i hope they all get what they deserve.

on the bright side to aid prosecution looking at the news footage none of the rioters seemed to be hiding their identities which should make your life a little easier?
 
Students are revolting!
On a lighter note . . .Did anyone else see, amongst the dozens of giant protest placards, the one that read "I only popped out for a bottle of milk" - Hilarious!!
 
I wonder how many of those who were causing the disruption and damage really were students? A bit of infiltration methinks......
 
This appalling behaviour gives thousands of students a bad name. I hope the culprits sent to the slammer, that'll not look good on the old CV.
 
Flash In The Pan said:
I wonder how many of those who were causing the disruption and damage really were students? A bit of infiltration methinks......
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No doubt there were some hangers-on, as there always is at their events, but many involved in the violence were indeed students.

Don't just take my word for it, though:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/10/student-protests-nus-lobby-anarchists

It is interesting to note that he does not care for the numerous injuries caused to several people, nor that police officers were almost killed when a fire extinguisher was thrown at them from the top of the building. Vive la revolution.
 
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Photo Plod said:
When I went to University, I had to see the loss of the grant be replaced by tuition fees... a very similar kick in the nuts to what has been handed to students this week.
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Quite, I was there at the same time. Many of my friends left university with significant loans/overdrafts. (we were invited to go to the protests then, but we had ~30 hours taught per week, and long research/practicals and write-ups to do every week, we didn't have time, seems 'students' now have too much time on their hands)
What does annoy me, is that this appears to me to being blamed on the government that they are charging students £9k a year.
What I believe is actually in place, is that they have lifted an in-place cap on tuition fees, so if a university wants to charge a student, they can, up to £9k a year. I have not heard any unis actually doing this yet.

Photo Plod said:
I agree. In fact, I remember someone posting up on the "General" boards last night asking for tips as he was going along to take photos...
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DemiLion said:
I'm rather hoping that he might end up posting some of his photographs.
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I was thinking of him on the way home tonight, hopefully he hasn't had his cards temporarily confiscated, and we can see some of the piccies
 
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coldpenguin said:
Quite, I was there at the same time. Many of my friends left university with significant loans/overdrafts. (we were invited to go to the protests then, but we had ~30 hours taught per week, and long research/practicals and write-ups to do every week, we didn't have time, seems 'students' now have too much time on their hands)
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I have 12 hours contact time a week (in a timetable scattered all over the place making organising blocks of work a nightmare) and am expected to do 3 hours independent study for every hour of contact time I have with a lecturer. That equates to a 48 hour week which is the maximum you can be legally made to work in employment (optional overtime excluded). Other students on different courses and at different universities have different expectations. You seem to think students are responsible for having too much time on our hands. We pay £3,290 a year for tuition fees; do you really think we wouldn't love that money to go towards more contact time with lecturers? I think most students feel that lecturers are paid far too much for the time they put in to educating students.

coldpenguin said:
What does annoy me, is that this appears to me to being blamed on the government that they are charging students £9k a year.
What I believe is actually in place, is that they have lifted an in-place cap on tuition fees, so if a university wants to charge a student, they can, up to £9k a year. I have not heard any unis actually doing this yet.
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The new tuition fee structure isn't going to be implemented until 2012. When it comes into force there will be a £6k minimum fee with an upper limit of £9k.
 
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Disgraceful! They should whack the fee's up to £10k now. Trying to be careful not to go down a politics route but don't people realise that everyone is having to pay more and get less, if you earn £2k a month but have £2500 of outgoings you have to cut costs - same goes for governments, councils and companies!

What annoys me is that many of these students are doing pointless degrees and expect people like me to pay for them to get drunk for 3 years! I have no problem with people doing useful degrees like Medicine, Engineering, Physics etc... and they should be free, but if you want to spend time studying American Studies or Equestrian Psychology or Outdoor Adventure With Philosophy and the like!
 
cambsno said:
What annoys me is that many of these students are doing pointless degrees and expect people like me to pay for them to get drunk for 3 years! I have no problem with people doing useful degrees like Medicine, Engineering, Physics etc... and they should be free, but if you want to spend time studying American Studies or Equestrian Psychology or Outdoor Adventure With Philosophy and the like!
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You forgot to mention ..... Media studies ...... :lol:
 
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