Struggling to know where I stand with this one...

[SlinkyG]

Seems some people are as full of pride about their advice as Dawn is about her dogs.

I understand Dawn's view being involved with breeding/showing but with a much larger 4 legged animal ... it's not always about selling it's also producing the best that counts and showing them to the world, then when it does come to selling in any form you have a high reputation. Much like if someone chooses to publish one of your photos that you believe to just be mediocre ... you'd rather the best to show off your work ... if you remove the fact that you have the copyrights to that work, it's how Dawn and other breeders view their animals! Lesson learnt by Dawn I believe in the fact she will double check with anyone else who approachs her regarding a similar matter!

I think maybe Dawn meant patronising comments towards why she shouldn't be upset because its just a dog and she's not selling it ... the trouble with text is sometimes you read it wrong to how it was meant!

I am going to assume as far as photography and authoring goes there isn't legally anything Dawn can do but knowing breeding associations and showing if there is enough show of hands then internally you can make things happen.

Tony wouldn't be able to complain about a bad photo of Cherie, although Cherie maybe able to by studying the law book long and hard but seen as Dawn's dog hasn't got a voice of it's own or actually understand the concept of a bad photo it then falls upon the owner to speak up!

Really glad you found an answer to your problem Dawn and maybe you could let us know the outcome if/when its resolved.

And defo post up a photo of your dog!

 

[Dawn B]

Hi Dawn

I know its sorted but when you say book, do you mean like an annual? I don't know what breed you have but with SBT's two annuals are produced each year by two authors.

The books publish leader tables etc, critique from champ shows, the top stafford for that year, etc. You can also have your stud advertised (fee payable). In the SBT fraternity, there's a handful of respected photographers whose photos appear in the annuals.

Or do you mean it's a breed specific book (for example) with information in it?

I just wondered how the author of said book rang you without already knowing your dogs name, where did he get your contact details from? I would have thought the photographer would have looked in the catalogue and got the dog's name when he took the pic, or is does he have an onsite printer and work that way?

Surely both the photographer and author are both at fault. They should have both realised it was a crap photo and not used it.
Lisa

Hi Lisa, thanks for the post. Yes, the author rang to ask for the dogs pedigree, he knew her name. In the past (we are talking the same annual too) the author has telephoned and asked for the pedigree AND a photo that we would like displayed, not this time though. There has been 3 of our dogs in the past included and every time he asked for a photo, but there was never any mention of it this time, we just thought the format had been changed, as there was talk of no annual at all at one time, then there would be no more, but having spoken to the author, now seems there will be!! :shrug:

You have always been able to supply any photo, although there may be several photographers at shows, it doesnt necessarily mean they take good ones every time of any dog, and of course when you win CC's, especially at crufts, you want your dog portrayed in the best possible light as it will not only reflect badly on you as an owner, but also on the judge on that day.

There have been several people unwilling to allow the author to include their dogs in the past, I only wish we had done the same this time, however without being told, we assumed the format had changed and that no pictures were being included this time.

We have no problem with the photographer at all, never have, she in fact is a friend, its the author we have the problem with, plus the fact, the main fact we never had any idea about pictures being included this time, there have been several other people saying the same, a discussion at Crufts with several exhibitors proved that.

Seems some people are as full of pride about their advice as Dawn is about her dogs.

I understand Dawn's view being involved with breeding/showing but with a much larger 4 legged animal ... it's not always about selling it's also producing the best that counts and showing them to the world, then when it does come to selling in any form you have a high reputation. Much like if someone chooses to publish one of your photos that you believe to just be mediocre ... you'd rather the best to show off your work ... if you remove the fact that you have the copyrights to that work, it's how Dawn and other breeders view their animals! Lesson learnt by Dawn I believe in the fact she will double check with anyone else who approachs her regarding a similar matter!

I think maybe Dawn meant patronising comments towards why she shouldn't be upset because its just a dog and she's not selling it ... the trouble with text is sometimes you read it wrong to how it was meant!

I am going to assume as far as photography and authoring goes there isn't legally anything Dawn can do but knowing breeding associations and showing if there is enough show of hands then internally you can make things happen.

Tony wouldn't be able to complain about a bad photo of Cherie, although Cherie maybe able to by studying the law book long and hard but seen as Dawn's dog hasn't got a voice of it's own or actually understand the concept of a bad photo it then falls upon the owner to speak up!

Really glad you found an answer to your problem Dawn and maybe you could let us know the outcome if/when its resolved.

And defo post up a photo of your dog!

Thanks Slinky.

I am very passionate about exhibiting dogs, Ive done it for about 23yrs, I enjoy it a lot.

I totally understand about the taking of the pics, its the use of a rubbish one in a breed publication without knowledge we have the problem with. As I said, when you contribute for 3yrs and are asked EACH time to supply a photo, then when no mention is made this time, you assume that the format has changed, I mean why would he go to somebody else for a picture of any dog when the owner would have ones of their own to supply?:shrug:


Anyhow, thanks all for your help, it is in hand. The author is extremely apologetic and is working with the breeder to come to some arrangement.

 

[Dawn B]

Can the Met Office finally declare that all teacups are now free of storms?

Weeeeeellll not quite, but its certainly a lot calmer at sea!!

 

[VinnyB]

We have no problem with the photographer at all, never have, she in fact is a friend, its the author we have the problem with, plus the fact, the main fact we never had any idea about pictures being included this time, there have been several other people saying the same, a discussion at Crufts with several exhibitors proved that.

Thanks Slinky.

I am very passionate about exhibiting dogs, Ive done it for about 23yrs, I enjoy it a lot.

I totally understand about the taking of the pics, its the use of a rubbish one in a breed publication without knowledge we have the problem with. As I said, when you contribute for 3yrs and are asked EACH time to supply a photo, then when no mention is made this time, you assume that the format has changed, I mean why would he go to somebody else for a picture of any dog when the owner would have ones of their own to supply?:shrug:


Anyhow, thanks all for your help, it is in hand. The author is extremely apologetic and is working with the breeder to come to some arrangement.[/QUOTE]






Well maybe you should have.?? Its your friend's fault that this thread started. Surely?

 

[Dawn B]

Possibly,but she wasnt IMO, in the wrong for taking pictures, and allowing them to be used (one of my queries.) My problem is with the author.

 

[neil_g]

Seems some people are as full of pride about their advice as Dawn is about her dogs.

I understand Dawn's view being involved with breeding/showing but with a much larger 4 legged animal ... it's not always about selling it's also producing the best that counts and showing them to the world, then when it does come to selling in any form you have a high reputation. Much like if someone chooses to publish one of your photos that you believe to just be mediocre ... you'd rather the best to show off your work ... if you remove the fact that you have the copyrights to that work, it's how Dawn and other breeders view their animals! Lesson learnt by Dawn I believe in the fact she will double check with anyone else who approachs her regarding a similar matter!

I think maybe Dawn meant patronising comments towards why she shouldn't be upset because its just a dog and she's not selling it ... the trouble with text is sometimes you read it wrong to how it was meant!

I am going to assume as far as photography and authoring goes there isn't legally anything Dawn can do but knowing breeding associations and showing if there is enough show of hands then internally you can make things happen.

Tony wouldn't be able to complain about a bad photo of Cherie, although Cherie maybe able to by studying the law book long and hard but seen as Dawn's dog hasn't got a voice of it's own or actually understand the concept of a bad photo it then falls upon the owner to speak up!

Really glad you found an answer to your problem Dawn and maybe you could let us know the outcome if/when its resolved.

And defo post up a photo of your dog!

ever the diplomat..

 

[Nikki McLeod]

I would have thought you would have needed a model release to print images of other people and their dogs at a dog show, or am I wrong?

I think the OP gave permission for the pedigree (dam, sire, granddam and sires etc - a generation thing) to be printed; not any image. But an image was put alongside the pedigree without the OP knowing until it was published. That's the way I read it anyway....

 

[Kev M]

You don't need model releases in this country, they're just a belt and braces approach that help people feel a bit more secure in case an agreement goes south. If they're not needed for people they won't be needed for dogs.

 

[turbotoes]

Late as ever to the party :shrug: (me). But I'm glad you're getting things sorted to your satisfaction Dawn, and I could not agree more with SlinkyGs' post

Tara

 

[Crazyhorse]

Stable door, horse bolted etc, but when I was showing mine, if anyone took a pic, I always asked what they would be using it for and if it was for a publication, I asked quite firmly to view photos first. I have in the past asked people to remove a pic of my dog on various websites because, quite frankly, the pic was crap.

Glad its all sorted.

Good luck for the future.

Lisa

 

[Arkady]

Stable door, horse bolted etc, but when I was showing mine, if anyone took a pic, I always asked what they would be using it for and if it was for a publication, I asked quite firmly to view photos first. I have in the past asked people to remove a pic of my dog on various websites because, quite frankly, the pic was crap.

Glad its all sorted.

Good luck for the future.

Lisa

...and what right do you have to view someone's photos or even impel them to remove images from thier website, just because you don't like it?

The arrogance implied by that statement is breathtaking...

If you'd asked me 'quite firmly' then you'd have got a thud in the cobblers...lol

 

[Crazyhorse]

...and what right do you have to view someone's photos or even impel them to remove images from thier website, just because you don't like it?

The arrogance implied by that statement is breathtaking...

If you'd asked me 'quite firmly' then you'd have got a thud in the cobblers...lol

For clarification purposes. I didn't say THEIR websites, I said 'various websites' as in breed specific websites. And when I say 'photographers' I use the term loosley there too, as some are taken on mobile phones and pics are blurred, the dog has a nasty shade of yellow due to white balance etc. There are some very very good terrier photographers - of course that's only my arrogant opinion. Maybe you are the authority on canine photography.

And you'd have got a thud in the cobblers too.

Lisa

 

[Dawn B]

I would have thought you would have needed a model release to print images of other people and their dogs at a dog show, or am I wrong?

I think the OP gave permission for the pedigree (dam, sire, granddam and sires etc - a generation thing) to be printed; not any image. But an image was put alongside the pedigree without the OP knowing until it was published. That's the way I read it anyway....

That is exactly correct. There was never any mention of a photo this time, in the past there always has been, and we were asked to provide one. Its more a moral/common courtesy thing now the "legal" side is clear.

Late as ever to the party :shrug: (me). But I'm glad you're getting things sorted to your satisfaction Dawn, and I could not agree more with SlinkyGs' post

Tara

Thanks Tara.

Stable door, horse bolted etc, but when I was showing mine, if anyone took a pic, I always asked what they would be using it for and if it was for a publication, I asked quite firmly to view photos first. I have in the past asked people to remove a pic of my dog on various websites because, quite frankly, the pic was crap.

Glad its all sorted.

Good luck for the future.

Lisa

I agree with you Lisa, thing is though, at Crufts, you are bombarded with people taking pictures at the end of judging, you couldnt possibly know who everyone was, they are from all over the world. Ive taken photos of dogs at shows before, plenty are on my site, but I have ALWAYS asked the owner if they mind and showed them the picture first. If Im honest my mind was anywhere but on who was taking pictures, I was concentrating on remaining upright and not passing out with shock!!

The lady that took the photos is a professional, I like her a lot, I know she did no wrong, but in my eyes the author did, and not for the first time.

 

[Crazyhorse]

I know where you're coming from. You are right, everyone is in the ring when the CC, RCC, BOB etc has been awarded and all shooting away.

The one thing I particularly remember about two years ago was a photographer who zoomed right in when the dentition of a dog was being checked. Thankfully, the bite was perfect. The photo was posted in all innocence on a breed specific website. That particular photo was really frowned upon and several people asked for it to be removed as they viewed it as an intrusive shot. The photographer, bless him removed it straight away and said he didn't realise. He's gone on to take some stonkingly great photos of SBT's.

I guess I'm off Arkady's Christmas card list. But maybe to the outsider, a dog is a dog. I guess people don't realise just how much training, correct diet, exercise, grooming (not much grooming goes on in my breed though and bloody hard work goes into a show dog (and dogs used for other purposes of course and even pet dogs) and we all want to see them in their best possible light.

Anyway, I'm off for some wine now and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone but we have a bit of stress here at the mo with young love. :nono: (Not me obviously)

Lisa

 

[ding76uk]

The lady that took the photos is a professional, I like her a lot, I know she did no wrong, but in my eyes the author did, and not for the first time.

Surely the way if you know her, are friends and she knows how precious you are about pictures, surely she would have emailed you in courtesy with a copy of the pic.

There is one person who did wrong YOU! I am not sugar coating it, trying to be mean or anything. You want the facts, you get them.

You should have asked what was being included in the book. They did not have to tell you. You almost seem keen to say how amazing your dogs are (I am sure they are) but not admit you made a most amateur of mistakes.

If a publication wants to run stuff on the business I am on the committee for (one of the UK's best skateparks) They are grilled. We check the publication, approve all copy, and check photos and if not suitable send in our own. We have a reputation to uphold just the same as you do, except you made a mistake in how to uphold it. Pure and simple.

I have followed all of this thread, and am shocked by your rude behavior. If anyone suggested anything you do not agree with all they get is a snide comment or plain arrogance and rudeness. Sorry, but that is not how to conduct yourself on a forum of people trying to help you out.

i am glad you got a solution you seem happy with, but even that sounds like it involves treatment that many on here would find unprofessional.

Hopefully you have learnt a lesson from all of this. Although I have to say that may be doubtful judging by your behavior on here.

 

[Arkady]

For clarification purposes. I didn't say THEIR websites, I said 'various websites' as in breed specific websites. And when I say 'photographers' I use the term loosley there too, as some are taken on mobile phones and pics are blurred, the dog has a nasty shade of yellow due to white balance etc. There are some very very good terrier photographers - of course that's only my arrogant opinion. Maybe you are the authority on canine photography.

And you'd have got a thud in the cobblers too.

Lisa

Again - what right do you have to demand anyone removes any images from anyone's websites, just because you don't like them?

You don't have to be an authority on photographing dogs per se to think this is total BS...who the hell do you think you are?

 

[Dawn B]

Surely the way if you know her, are friends and she knows how precious you are about pictures, surely she would have emailed you in courtesy with a copy of the pic.

There is one person who did wrong YOU! I am not sugar coating it, trying to be mean or anything. You want the facts, you get them.

You should have asked what was being included in the book. They did not have to tell you. You almost seem keen to say how amazing your dogs are (I am sure they are) but not admit you made a most amateur of mistakes.

If a publication wants to run stuff on the business I am on the committee for (one of the UK's best skateparks) They are grilled. We check the publication, approve all copy, and check photos and if not suitable send in our own. We have a reputation to uphold just the same as you do, except you made a mistake in how to uphold it. Pure and simple.

I have followed all of this thread, and am shocked by your rude behavior. If anyone suggested anything you do not agree with all they get is a snide comment or plain arrogance and rudeness. Sorry, but that is not how to conduct yourself on a forum of people trying to help you out.

i am glad you got a solution you seem happy with, but even that sounds like it involves treatment that many on here would find unprofessional.

Hopefully you have learnt a lesson from all of this. Although I have to say that may be doubtful judging by your behavior on here.

Cheers for that.

 

[Bobtographer]

Dawn, I don`t suppose it was taken at Crufts was it ? If it was you can possibly do something about it as photography there is prohibited without a permit.

i was happily walking around Crufts on Sunday with my 70-200 with 2x tele on and 17-50. not one official stopped me and asked what i was doing..

the website states you aren't allowed to use video or photography for Commercial use.

 

[rheinhessen]

♫♪♪♫ ...Cry me a river... ♫♪♫

 

[Davec223]

Again - what right do you have to demand anyone removes any images from anyone's websites, just because you don't like them?

You don't have to be an authority on photographing dogs per se to think this is total BS...who the hell do you think you are?

Although I have sympathy with Dawn and Lisa and understand what they are both saying I absolutely agree with what Rob is saying. If people see a "bad" photo of a dog, blurry oof etc they are not going to say ,"oh, that's not a good dog." what they will actually say is,"oh, that's a bad photo.

What you also need to think about is if you had a photograph of a car or something similar on your site and the owner of said car asked you to remove it because they didn't like the angle of the shot or similar, what you you then do? It is a subject that comes up sometimes ( about removing images from websites) and the concencus is 99% of the time the same tell them to take a long walk.

 

[Crazyhorse]

Again - what right do you have to demand anyone removes any images from anyone's websites, just because you don't like them?

It's common place on breed specific websites for the poster of pics to say 'if anyone would like me to remove the pics of their dogs, please let me know and I'll take them off'. As I said in a later post, (although this didn't apply in my case), close up of dentition is a massive no no.

You don't have to be an authority on photographing dogs per se to think this is total BS...who the hell do you think you are?

I have nothing else to say to you I'm afraid as I think you're rather aggressive in your posts to me.

 

[Arkady]

I have nothing else to say to you I'm afraid as I think you're rather aggressive in your posts to me.

I'm sorry if it seems that way - if so then it's in response to you apparently being under the impression that you have creative control over someone else's photos just because you happen to dislike the image...
Something I find quite staggering. Plus your statement that you:

...always asked what they would be using it for and if it was for a publication, I asked quite firmly to view photos first. I have in the past asked people to remove a pic of my dog on various websites because, quite frankly, the pic was crap.

"asked quite firmly to view the photos"? Maybe a polite request would get you somewhere, but once again: who the hell do you think you are?
"remove the pic of my dog on various websites"? on what authority?

You made those statements, not me - and you think I'm aggressive?

 

[Dawn B]

i was happily walking around Crufts on Sunday with my 70-200 with 2x tele on and 17-50. not one official stopped me and asked what i was doing..

the website states you aren't allowed to use video or photography for Commercial use.

I did all 4 days, plus the Wednesday putting the stand up, there are hundreds taking photos, the dogs on the stands have cameras in their faces every few seconds, the polite people ask first, others assume its ok.

Your commercial use comment is a good point.

 

[Byker28i]

The bit I'm struggling with is:

The lady that took the photos is a professional, I like her a lot, I know she did no wrong, but in my eyes the author did, and not for the first time.

But the whole complaint was about the quality of the photograph used which didn't show off your dog to the best of which you think it should be shown.

I know nothing about dog shows but I'm passionate about cars. Mine was featured in a recent magazine shoot and the colouring left my car looking orange rather than red, but apart from a little good natured ribbing it doesn't bother me and I don't lose sleep about it.

If these books are produced twice a year, then it's not an issue is it. In six months they'll be a new version.
The problem with offering your own photos is that publications will have their own regular, trusted photographers they'll use, plus there's always the thought that has the supplied photo been doctored in any way to make the object seem better than it is.

 

[Dawn B]

The bit I'm struggling with is:



But the whole complaint was about the quality of the photograph used which didn't show off your dog to the best of which you think it should be shown.

I know nothing about dog shows but I'm passionate about cars. Mine was featured in a recent magazine shoot and the colouring left my car looking orange rather than red, but apart from a little good natured ribbing it doesn't bother me and I don't lose sleep about it.

If these books are produced twice a year, then it's not an issue is it. In six months they'll be a new version.
The problem with offering your own photos is that publications will have their own regular, trusted photographers they'll use, plus there's always the thought that has the supplied photo been doctored in any way to make the object seem better than it is.

Thanks for the reply Byker.

Its an annual, once a year. I understand about your car and a bit of colour difference wouldnt of bothered me at all. I dont expect people to understand how detrimental this can be for a kennel, however, believe me it can be. The thing with you car is that it wouldnt matter how your car was "positioned" nothing can be changed about its shape, its a machine, not a living creature.

The author doesnt have any specific photographers to use, as I said he ALWAYS ASKED for a picture before, and never mentioning it this time we assumed the format had changed, as TWICE previously we have contributed in the same way, each time being asked for a picture.

As I said, now the legal side is clear, its a courtesy thing which is being dealt with via the author and the breeder, I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

 

[Byker28i]

Thanks for the reply Byker.

Its an annual, once a year. I understand about your car and a bit of colour difference wouldnt of bothered me at all. I dont expect people to understand how detrimental this can be for a kennel, however, believe me it can be.

Actually, it's quite the same and there's more similarities than you think. I'm as passionate about my car as you are with your dogs and spent over 6 months tracking down the exact colour car and interior I wanted, so to see it portrayed as bright orange rather than classic red rosso pearl matters to me. Again it's the fault of the photographer but nothing I can do about it, the magazine was printed, distributed. At least the write up was good

If you don't sell, then it's not detrimental to the kennel, just to your pride? I get the impression you do this for the enjoyment rather than as a breeder/money making process (which again has similarities with many of us amateur photographers )

The thing with you car is that it wouldnt matter how your car was "positioned" nothing can be changed about its shape, its a machine, not a living creature.

I kinda understand where you are coming from but again it's quite similar with a car. Lighting, positioning, angles, lenses used all can deceive, flatter or change the appearance. OK maybe not as much as a dogs posture in the heady world of dog shows, but then again, to an untrained eye it just looks like the dogs standing there proud, everyone adopting the same position.

As for not a living creature, just don't let her hear that (yes all cars are female - temperamental things ) She has to be cosseted, cajoled and regularly rewarded but then provides so much pleasure.

And to finish the comparisons, it's a bit like our Labrador. Both would consume fuel at an astonishing rate if allowed.

 

[Crazyhorse]

And who the hell do you think you are?

 

[Arkady]

And who the hell do you think you are?

The person telling you that you've got your head up your ar&e...?

 

[Crazyhorse]

I'm not debating this with you anymore. Stop asking me who the hell I think I am.

 

[Marc]

I think this has gone on for long enough now.