Struggling to grasp manual so early

Colin44

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Colin
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I've been messing with my D3100 settings in manual mode but the last couple of days shooting has left me lost. What looked good in preview mode didnt look so good when I was scanning them in my laptop.

I was shooting my kids in the park, they appear to have a less sharp focus on them almost a slight blur yet the background was sharp.

Auto ISO, 1/200 shutter speed, f5.6. Was outdoors in good light.

Was my shutter speed too slow or should I have increased the apature? Did my cameras auto focus think the background was the main point of interst as it wasn't moving and it could remain in focus?

Changed a couple of settings but I notice my shutter speed was the same in all the pictures. In the end up I switched to auto as the light was too going but my battery was also beginning to run low so can't really compare the cameras settings to mines.


Should I stick with the pre-set options and do some more reading up or keep with trial and error?
 
FWIW, I tend to stick with aperture priority mode and let the camera work out what shutter speed it can get away with.

As for your focus issue, could you tell what part of the shot the camera was focusing on? You should be able to tell when you are taking the shot as the rectangular blocks you can see through your viewfinder should show one bold and that's the point of focus the camera is using for the shot. You should be able to change what point it uses to focus with which should help your shot making.
 
check what foucising mode you are using i usually use single point AF and select the centre point, you might want to use another.
when first using manual choose Aperture priority and choose you DOF you want, then note the settings and use them all in manual, check your exposure dial is centred or therre abouts
It really is trial and error.

When you get a great shot note down the conditions etc and all your settings for using that in the same conditions next time.
 
Lots of new photographers struggle with how much control to take and often it's full automatic or full manual, and frankly it'll teach you nothing but how to get frustrated.

The most important thing is that you're choosing what you're shooting, you've chosen the composition, and the light (you probably never considered that yet), now you need to sort your focussing and exposure.

Focussing - modern AF cameras are brilliant, but never let them guess what you want to focus on. You can select the focus point that falls over your subject, or use the centre focus point and recompose, with higher spec cameras you can tell the camera how and when to expand the focus points. But don't ever let the camera choose your focus point. If you're shooting a moving subject ensure that you've selected continuous or Servo AF. One shot or single for static subjects. There's rarely a good reason for switching to Manual focus on modern cameras (they're not really built for it anyway).

Exposure, this is simply a mix of ISO, shutter speed and aperture.

Exposure modes: You can allow the camera to select any or all of them automatically, but if you allow it to set them all, you can easily lose control. Depending on your subject you can select to prioritise the aperture or the shutter speed (keep an eye on what the camera is doing with the others)

Metering: Where the real control of your exposure comes from (many people think it's all about taking control in Manual), Spot metering, average metering, matrix metering (Eval for Canon), tell the meter how to take the reading from your subject. It's understanding what your camera's meter is doing that puts you in control. Using Exposure lock or Exposure compensation (or choosing to compensate in Manual) is what makes the big difference.

Without seeing your pictures it's difficult to know whether it was a focus issue or whether the shutter speed wasn't fast enough (or both), but for kids playing I'd use a faster shutter speed and continuous focussing.

I hope that helps.
 
Honestly, I'd say stick it on set aperture, set ISO, auto shutter speed. I'd say that's a better place to start, and once you're happier with composition, and the photos that are coming out, then try going into manual.

kd
 
I suspect much of the problem is the focus settings you are using. You need to remember that the camera doesn't know what you want to be in focus so if you are using all of the focusing points it might not pick the subject that you want in focus. Using just a single focus point is likely to get you more accurate results.
 
I'll check my exact settings when I'm back home but I know its single point focus which I set up on day one. Quite alot to take in above so thanks for the feedback and ideas to try out.

Suppose when you hear people say turn it to manual and start learning it doesn't really work that way! The LCD doesn't really show up imperfections as well as downloading them.
 
what is the auto focus set at? face recognition or wide etc

i hate it when my camera focuses on something wrong. i just take a few more snaps and choose the one that is best. but after reading this post i have swtched to contnuos A-F ,so i can see what the lens focuses on and then when it hits the sweet spot,BOOM
 
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Having checked the settings it was set at single point AF, AF assist on, meter spot.
I'll upload a couple of examples later. The servo assist? Can't even find that in my menus!

I can only assign 'face priority' or 'wide' if I'm in live view only it seems.
 
Colin44 said:
Having checked the settings it was set at single point AF, AF assist on, meter spot.
I'll upload a couple of examples later. The servo assist? Can't even find that in my menus!

I can only assign 'face priority' or 'wide' if I'm in live view only it seems.

I added a couple of canon equivalent terms, but I'll see what I can do with this directly.

Single point AF, that's ok but you don't say whether it was set on continuous or one shot.
AF assist on, refers to AF assist on a flashgun. Spot metering will cause you lots of problems unless you know what you're doing. Use matrix metering until you fully understand the difference.
Servo AF isn't servo assist, it's what Canon calls continuous AF.

Face priority wasn't one of mine and I've never seen it on anything other than a phone. I'll leave that to the Nikonites.
 
Honestly, I'd say stick it on set aperture, set ISO, auto shutter speed. I'd say that's a better place to start, and once you're happier with composition, and the photos that are coming out, then try going into manual.

kd

The rule of thumb I follow is if it moves use shutter priority, if it's still use aperture priority. ;)
1/200 doesn't sound that fast for fast moving children.

OP, what lens are you using?
Apparently Nikon call their focus tracking "full time-servo (AF-F)".
 
Ah, think it was in continuous shooting mode! Would that cause a problem?

They were on the swings so has the camera maybe struggled to keep on focusing.
 
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I think the low shutter speed will be playing a big part here, I often shoot a local running event and use a minimum of 1/640 on my 70-200 f2.8. ;)
 
The rule of thumb I follow is if it moves use shutter priority, if it's still use aperture priority. ;)
1/200 doesn't sound that fast for fast moving children.

OP, what lens are you using?
Apparently Nikon call their focus tracking "full time-servo (AF-F)".

Just the kit lens, suppose I just need lots of time messing around and getting my eye in for what settings I need for different conditions.
 
I only ever shoot manual, the camera doesn't know what you want from the shot.

Where's the image ?

1/200 doesn't sound that quick for a child on the move, I don't know how the Nikon auto ISO reacts as I shoot Canon, but I know I can't trust it on the 5d2 so I set that manually as high as I think I can get away with to give me the shutter speed I need.

For moving stuff, I always stick to my centre focus point too to stop the camera snatching focus onto the background if the subject suddenly moves.
 
digitalfailure said:
I only ever shoot manual, the camera doesn't know what you want from the shot.

Then you need a better camera!

Because I can shoot in any of PASM and my camera knows exactly what I want because it's what I meter, focus and of course whichever of the ISO aperture or SS I have set. :THINKING:

The old 'you're not in control if you're not shooting M is just nonsense, and leads lots of new shooters to spoil their pictures.

And then leads lots of idiots to chase the centre of the meter, swear they're 'in control' and shoot incorrectly exposed images. and they have no idea why their images are 'wrong' when the meter was right.

I'm not saying there's no time for Manual, but millions of photographs are produced every year by people shooting auto modes and in total control.
 
Hi, I just bought a D5100 and learning all the indepth menu functions.
As others have said, you might be better off with the camera in a PSA Auto setting. For kids running around M can be too hard to set as the image is constantly changing.

Check AF on lens
Check AF setting in camera i.e. face mode and continuous or auto servo (maybe).
Check ISO sensitivity setting.
 
Phil, with respect....... I don't need a camera that's any better than my 5d2. I mainly shoot live cabaret and dancers in some of the most awkwardly and dimly venues around the country. neither AV or TV will get close to getting the shutter speed right for a fast moving burlesque dancer while keeping a great enough depth of field under rapidly changing colours and intensity of spotlighting.
 
Phil, with respect....... I don't need a camera that's any better than my 5d2. I mainly shoot live cabaret and dancers in some of the most awkwardly and dimly venues around the country. neither AV or TV will get close to getting the shutter speed right for a fast moving burlesque dancer while keeping a great enough depth of field under rapidly changing colours and intensity of spotlighting.

With respect, your experience and preferred subject aren't the basis for telling newbies the only way to control a camera properly is in Manual.

If I was shooting those subjects in those circumstances, I'd shoot manual too. But that doesn't mean that shooting Av or TV in most circumstances isn't just as viable.
I only ever shoot manual, the camera doesn't know what you want from the shot...
In answer to...
Should I stick with the pre-set options and do some more reading up or keep with trial and error?
It's just more Shooting Manual for control willy waving, which is what makes people like the OP struggle in the first place. Spot metering and Manual mode will give him crap photos when he's supposed to be taking pictures whilst he learns and has fun too.
 
Phil,

A, I never said he had to, I made the point that an automatic mode can not know what sort of background delineation or shutter speed to give the appropriate sense of movement. Only the camera operator can do that because they alone know what they want from the shot.

B, aperture priority and shutter priority can't handle my type of work.....believe me, I tried it briefly over 250000 clicks ago. Overly slow shutter speeds to match an aperture or a DoF so small 1/2 a performers body is in focus don't make for shots worthy of being paid to cover the event.

:D
 
But it's not about you! It's about a newbie photographer, getting to grips with the very basics, who's struggling because the Internet is full of stupid advice to shoot manual and spot metering.

Don't take it personally, but your insistence that theres nothing wrong with that advice is only going to make it worse for him.

I understand completely what you're saying, but I've been shooting over 25 years. Can we let the OP learn the basics slowly, and when he's got it all under his belt, and he wants to shoot a theatre production, you can give him some really useful advice :THUMBS:
 
With respect, your experience and preferred subject aren't the basis for telling newbies the only way to control a camera properly is in Manual.

If I may interject.....

I would recommend using manual as a means of learning exposure, yes, but it's not something I;d be advising a raw beginner to use if they want to learn.

There is a use for aperture priority and shutter priority, and even program modes for beginners, yes, but let's not pretend that we're in full control of program modes, because we're not. With a camera on auto ISO, and full program mode I can not chose the exact shutter speed or aperture I want. Mine won't let me choose a really slow shutter speed in P if I need one for instance, and it insists on popping the flash up etc , and it certainly won't let me choose to do so at f8. THAT will be more confusing for some than using it manually.So I can't use P at night for instance.. how is that helping someone to understand photography?

If it was common practice to advise newbies to use P, we'd be awash with "Why can't I set a 10 second exposure on my camera" questions... and others too, as the limitations of P become apparent to them.

Manual is an ideal learning tool. You have to set both aperture and shutter speed, so therefore you have to know the reciprocal relationship between them, and as that is the cornerstone of everything, I feel it's important to lean this early.

A or S can so the same thing, but the inherent laziness factor may kick in and while someone diligent and driven may take note of the shutter speed or aperture the camera has chosen and understand what's going on, you will learn a lot faster if it all has to come from you. Yes, you'll make more mistakes, but if someone just gives up because they can't get it right first time, then they're not really that interested in the first place.

Once you understand what's going on, then of course you can use auto modes if you want, it's your camera. I will be advising newcomers to learn full manual control first however, as it gives a fuller understanding of the relationship between shutter, aperture and ISO.

I agree about chasing the centre of the meter, but that's something learned via experience.

I think the OP is struggling because someone has said to him that he needs to use manual, but no one has bothered to sit down and explain to him precisely why that is so, and what exactly different shutter speeds do, and apertures, and the effects they have, and when you should do what, and why.... if all you do is say "Use manual" then of course that will baffle a newbie. Explain what's going on with all these controls and it's actually very easy.

To the OP.... take a read of...

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=440126

...see if that explains things.
 
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I've been teaching my Grandaughter (now 13) over the last year or so. If I had introduced her to photography by requiring her to use manual mode, she would have lost interest right at the start. Nothing wrong with starting in auto mode and then analysing images on the computer using the EXIF for reference. Then moving to aperture priority with explanation of depth of field control and use of ISO to retain appropriate shutter speed. All the while explaining when appropriate to use static or servo (Nikon) focusing with single point or one of the multi-pattern modes. It's a lot to take in, but at the end of it she has a knowledge of which shutter speed, aperture, and focusing mode to use as appropriate to the subject. Not much trial and error nowadays! Her success has led to a level of enthusiasm which would never have been achieved if she hadn't had acceptable or good results right from the start. Like most young people she loves to try weird and wonderful special effects and that is all part of the learning process.

Except during "lessons" she has been able to concentrate on the subject and composition instead of mucking about with camera settings. She will be walking up Snowdon this year with her Dad (I just wish I could!) and much of her motivation is the photography potential.

So, even though some of my opinions and methods could no doubt be challenged, she has almost reached the point where she could use manual exposure settings if she so wished. But why? - Except in our macro work, I can't imagine any circumstances where it would be appropriate.

I have tried to imagine how she would have got on if she hadn't had a "mentor". I'm fairly confident her ambition would not have gone any further than holding an iPhone at arm's length.

OK, do I hear get to the point you old fart? My point is that the OP is unwise to try and unravel the always conflicting internet advice, much of which is a bit of WW. Can he/she learn from books? - Some people can, most find it difficult and it requires some dedication. By far the best is to find a "mentor". Can I suggest the OP tries a local camera club? Sadly that might not be such a great suggestion for many clubs who don't properly cater for beginners. A local college photography night classes? Perhaps an organised photographic holiday? You can learn more in a week that way from leader(s) and peers than you could in a year on your own (Try "LPH").

Don't give up!
 
You need both. There's nothing wrong with auto modes, but in order to demonstrate the effects of shutter speed and aperture, and ISO it is much easier if the camera is on manual as there is no interference from the camera. I actually introduce aperture priority and shutter priority very early, but when explaining the affects of aperture and shutter speed I get students to use manual. It's actually harder to do otherwise in most cases.

I'm not suggesting you BAN auto modes, or don't even talk about them, but I feel students need to be able to manually set things, especially if you are working with them - they have their camera, you have yours, as if there's is on an auto mode, it's just a case of "mine isn't doing that" etc.

If you read the tutorial I wrote I introduce A and S modes straight away after explaining the use of shutter and aperture, but things go more smoothly if they understand that if you change one, you have to get the balance right again by changing the other. That's the fundamental thing with exposure... reciprocity.

One thing I DO know is that when we get A level students who have been taught with camera's on auto, they can't cope well when they NEED manual, and furthermore, they resist using it because they feel they've reached a certain level without it, and don't see the value in it.

Your granddaughter is clearly bright and attentive, and seems to have a genuine learning instinct borne from your passion in teaching her, but that's not always the case.

You need a balance of both, but starting with the basics... starting at the beginning always goes smoother in the long run, especially when you get on to more advanced things that require a working knowledge of exposure. I find it produces a balanced photographer who knows what to use and when.

You have to remember though, we're talking about guided learning here.. me at Uni, you with your granddaughter.. either way will work if your intent is to produce someone who knows what they are doing. I can see where Phil is coming from. Just saying to a newbie "Use manual" and then they do so without guidance... well, that will end in tears for certain too. Having said that, without guidance, so will any method. No everyone can guide themselves through the learning experience.
 
No doubt I'm blind, but I have seen nothing posted by Colin to hint that exposure is the issue here. The problem as explained in the first post appears to be related either to shutter speed, AF point selection/placement or possibly both. Conceivably DOF might be an issue, but I haven't seen one word to suggest that the exposure was wrong. I do understand that with the metering and exposure settings specified later on there is definitely room for exposure error, but for now that is not the problem to be addressed.

I think it would help to see an unedited, uncropped example, with full EXIF, to aid diagnosis. Assuming two kids on swings I guess a likely cause for issue is that the AF point was aimed right in between them and missed both of them and ended up on the background. I don't have software to show me the active AF point(s) with Nikon files, but I imagine someone here does.

The next thing is the shutter speed. 1/200 does sound a little slow for guaranteed results, depending on the timing of the shot, the speed of movement and the angle of movement relative to the camera. It probably would complicate things if they were at different positions within the swing arc as they might be travelling at different speeds and might have different needs for DOF. There won't be much movement at the end of each swing, but rather more during mid swing, and if they are in sync the DOF needn't necessarily be so great.

As for metering and exposure, for this example it is clear that shutter speed matters. Also it sounds like DOF ought to be considered, which means that aperture value is important too. That leaves ISO as the least important variable from the exposure triangle to be addressed. If Colin wants the camera to take care of calculating the exposure then manual control of shutter speed (for motion) and aperture (for DOF) would seem appropriate, with auto ISO picking up the slack. To shoot full manual it's then only a small step further to lock down the ISO if that's the preference. Naturally the metering mode is crucial, and spot does seem a dangerous choice for the unwary. For now it seems that matrix metering would be a better starting point.

p.s. If he does choose to go full manual then he should understand why he is doing so - because the light is unchanging and he doesn't want adjustments in composition to mess things up.
 
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I've been teaching my Grandaughter (now 13) over the last year or so. If I had introduced her to photography by requiring her to use manual mode, she would have lost interest right at the start. Nothing wrong with starting in auto mode and then analysing images on the computer using the EXIF for reference. Then moving to aperture priority with explanation of depth of field control and use of ISO to retain appropriate shutter speed. All the while explaining when appropriate to use static or servo (Nikon) focusing with single point or one of the multi-pattern modes. It's a lot to take in, but at the end of it she has a knowledge of which shutter speed, aperture, and focusing mode to use as appropriate to the subject. Not much trial and error nowadays! Her success has led to a level of enthusiasm which would never have been achieved if she hadn't had acceptable or good results right from the start. Like most young people she loves to try weird and wonderful special effects and that is all part of the learning process.

Except during "lessons" she has been able to concentrate on the subject and composition instead of mucking about with camera settings. She will be walking up Snowdon this year with her Dad (I just wish I could!) and much of her motivation is the photography potential.

So, even though some of my opinions and methods could no doubt be challenged, she has almost reached the point where she could use manual exposure settings if she so wished. But why? - Except in our macro work, I can't imagine any circumstances where it would be appropriate.

I have tried to imagine how she would have got on if she hadn't had a "mentor". I'm fairly confident her ambition would not have gone any further than holding an iPhone at arm's length.

OK, do I hear get to the point you old fart? My point is that the OP is unwise to try and unravel the always conflicting internet advice, much of which is a bit of WW. Can he/she learn from books? - Some people can, most find it difficult and it requires some dedication. By far the best is to find a "mentor". Can I suggest the OP tries a local camera club? Sadly that might not be such a great suggestion for many clubs who don't properly cater for beginners. A local college photography night classes? Perhaps an organised photographic holiday? You can learn more in a week that way from leader(s) and peers than you could in a year on your own (Try "LPH").

Don't give up!

Good post.

This just shows that there are several ways to go about learning the fundamentals and interaction of the 3 variables.
 
Woah!!!!


Please don't argue over me, please! I will make sure I get a few examples uploaded later tonight with the exact settings I had in place. I have been reading up but I will never fully understand what I'm doing for a long time yet.

I just thought the settings I picked in good light would have produced better results but for some reason I've baffled the camera into picking up the wrong subject. Ideally my kids would have been in perfect focus and the background slightly or even quite a bit out of focus. Will be at the laptop after 7pm tonight and I'll get the evidence up for scrutiny!

They are not the worst pictures ever and when I've sized them down you would probably struggle to notice but yes, no where near the quality I was expecting. But then I'm completely new to all this.

Thanks for all the advice and stuff to look up.
 
No doubt I'm blind, but I have seen nothing posted by Colin to hint that exposure is the issue here. The problem as explained in the first post appears to be related either to shutter speed, AF point selection/placement or possibly both. Conceivably DOF might be an issue, but I haven't seen one word to suggest that the exposure was wrong. I do understand that with the metering and exposure settings specified later on there is definitely room for exposure error, but for now that is not the problem to be addressed.

I think it would help to see an unedited, uncropped example, with full EXIF, to aid diagnosis. Assuming two kids on swings I guess a likely cause for issue is that the AF point was aimed right in between them and missed both of them and ended up on the background. I don't have software to show me the active AF point(s) with Nikon files, but I imagine someone here does.

The next thing is the shutter speed. 1/200 does sound a little slow for guaranteed results, depending on the timing of the shot, the speed of movement and the angle of movement relative to the camera. It probably would complicate things if they were at different positions within the swing arc as they might be travelling at different speeds and might have different needs for DOF. There won't be much movement at the end of each swing, but rather more during mid swing, and if they are in sync the DOF needn't necessarily be so great.

As for metering and exposure, for this example it is clear that shutter speed matters. Also it sounds like DOF ought to be considered, which means that aperture value is important too. That leaves ISO as the least important variable from the exposure triangle to be addressed. If Colin wants the camera to take care of calculating the exposure then manual control of shutter speed (for motion) and aperture (for DOF) would seem appropriate, with auto ISO picking up the slack. To shoot full manual it's then only a small step further to lock down the ISO if that's the preference. Naturally the metering mode is crucial, and spot does seem a dangerous choice for the unwary. For now it seems that matrix metering would be a better starting point.

p.s. If he does choose to go full manual then he should understand why he is doing so - because the light is unchanging and he doesn't want adjustments in composition to mess things up.

Great post and I think you have nailed the issue. Blurry moving subject and sharp background can only really mean one of two things. Either the camera is missing focus on your subject and instead focusing on the background or that your subject is in focus but is moving fast enough to blur. Or a combination of both.

On the focus side of things there are many ways to skin a cat. You could for example manually focus at a particular point and then wait for your subject to reach that point and take the shot. Or if that sounds a bit fiddly, stick with single point focus but switch the focus mode to AF-C (continuous focus sometime referred to as servo mode). You are best using the centre focus point, rather than one of the off centre ones as it will be most accurate. If you're worried about framing, you could consider framing in a manner that will allow you to crop the shot afterwards. Keep the centre focus point on your subject and keep the shutter half pressed and it should track your subject. When you want to take the shot, just squeeze the shutter down further. If it has focus lock it will fire the shot.

As above, you will need a fairly fast shutter speed though to avoid blur. 1/500 I guess would be okay but just play around until you're happy. Check the image review zoomed in to look for blur and adjust if necessary. For exposure, you could use shutter priority mode or manual if you're comfortable with that. Even Aperture priority would work as long as you're checking that the iso is high enough to give you a high shutter speed.
 
Both David and I clearly don't disagree fundamentally, but I fear we have gone a little off-topic which was to help Colin specifically. David is clearly writing based on his experience of formal teaching and mine somewhat more informal and as more of a mentor in a single case. However, surely the point is that both work and that it's much easier for a "student", formally so or otherwise to pick up the skill of photography (and not just using the camera) if someone helps them person to person whether they start in manual control or not. I'd only make the point that manual control is easier on more advanced cameras whereas a beginner may be using a compact. We can't insist they buy a more advanced camera before we can help them.

I hesitate to give any specific advice to Colin as there are so many variables involved and long ago during my career I learnt never to assume anything when problem-solving. I'm sure any of those posting here, whatever their methods or preferences, could lead Colin in the right direction in this instance if they were face to face.

If that is indeed the case, how does Colin, or someone like him, find person to person help? Is that not the main issue? - Or have I missed the point completely?
 
So, even though some of my opinions and methods could no doubt be challenged, she has almost reached the point where she could use manual exposure settings if she so wished. But why? - Except in our macro work, I can't imagine any circumstances where it would be appropriate.

How about pretty much any time when you have constant light upon your subject/scene but a background (or subjects) of ever changing tonal mix?

e.g. when shooting birds in flight and finding the background varying from clear sky to woodland or water.

e.g. when shooting in a studio with off camera flash.

e.g. when taking group shots at a wedding in open shade (steady light) and having an assortment of compositions from the groom and groomsmen in black for one shot and the bride and bridesmaids in pale tones for the next, and every other combination of tones imaginable as everyone else joins in.

e.g. With a subject situated within a snow scene, how much compensation should you dial in for auto modes? What if the subject is wearing black and nearly filling the frame? What if they are part of a long line of skiers playing "trains" with 90% of the scene filled with snow?

I remember a trip to Egypt when I first bought a DSLR and achieving sub-optimal results by relying on auto modes to deal with the lighting. If I had understood things like "Sunny 16" back then and been less afraid of manual mode I'm sure that my results could have been better.

I also remember shooting my first wedding just three months later, as a guest, but nominated "chief photographer" in the absence of a pro. I'd been researching furiously and most advice, especially when using flash, was to shoot with manual exposure for ambient light. That was my intention right up until the first picture, when I bottled it and chose Av instead. Big mistake! Shutter speeds all over the map, and often too slow. Backlight from windows throwing things off. Most indoor shots underexposed. Some outdoor shots overexposed. It was a painful lesson. I don't shoot like that any more.

I've posted this set before, but here is an example of the control and consistency you can obtain by choosing to shoot with manual exposure. These were all shot over a 40 minute period and are unedited. It makes no odds whereabout the subject was within the frame, nor whether the background was mostly snow, mostly sky or a bit of each. The snow stayed white throughout, never grey, never blown out. The exposure was set for the lighting, and that didn't change at all.

20130121_104026_.JPG


(Actually the exposure was set by metering from the sunlit snow and setting an exposure manually to put the brightest parts on the threshold of clipping. That's a technique I commonly use for all sorts of things. Nonetheless, steady lighting made manual exposure a no-brainer, whereas anything else would, IMHO, have been daft.)


In other words it is sometimes far easier to set an exposure for the incident light than to be metering from your subjects/scene and faffing around to compensate for their tonal mix. Sometimes I make mistakes with my manual exposures, but that's usually because I am being lazy, or occasionally can't respond quickly enough to changing light levels. But those occurrences are rare, and in my experience I'd suffer far more pain if I was forever to use one of the auto exposure modes. Of course I will use them if it makes more sense to do so, but for my shooting (when I pay deliberate attention to choosing the lighting conditions) I am better served with manual more often than not.

The simple truth is that there is a time and place for auto and a time and place for manual. Anyone who dismisses either approach out of hand probably needs to review their reasoning.
 
If that is indeed the case, how does Colin, or someone like him, find person to person help? Is that not the main issue? - Or have I missed the point completely?

Short of having someone volunteer to do a bit of tutoring, the easiest way is probably to attend an organised TP meetup and rub shoulders with other members. I'm sure someone would be able to help out. Certainly I'm happy to both give and receive advice when I attend such things.
 
Pookeyhead said:
If I may interject.....

I would recommend using manual as a means of learning exposure, yes, but it's not something I;d be advising a raw beginner to use if they want to learn.

There is a use for aperture priority and shutter priority, and even program modes for beginners, yes, but let's not pretend that we're in full control of program modes, because we're not. With a camera on auto ISO, and full program mode I can not chose the exact shutter speed or aperture I want. Mine won't let me choose a really slow shutter speed in P if I need one for instance, and it insists on popping the flash up etc , and it certainly won't let me choose to do so at f8. THAT will be more confusing for some than using it manually.So I can't use P at night for instance.. how is that helping someone to understand photography?

not to derail the thread any further, but I never suggested Auto ISO, it's the Devils work! : LOL:
 
the point is that both work and that it's much easier for a "student", formally so or otherwise to pick up the skill of photography (and not just using the camera) if someone helps them person to person whether they start in manual control or not.


Yep. Didn't mean to derail the thread at all. You're right though... getting guidance with any aspect of photography when you're learning is the best way. Many self learn.. I did.. but I wish I had someone to work with me when I was a wee nipper.

Anyhooo.... the OP is in here now, and there's a wealth of people on here with a great deal of knowledge who can help him.
 
OK, could be a big case of learning to walk (or maybe crawl) before I can run. Go easy, completely new to all this.

Many of my pics came out like these two although I must have got lucky with a couple as they turned out ok I suppose.


DSC_0180 by Jester_Colin, on Flickr



DSC_0197 by Jester_Colin, on Flickr


Kit lens
Focal length - 18mm
F/4
1/160 (I thought it was 1/200)
Meter - Matrix (didn't even know it was on this setting)
AF area - single point
ISO auto - 110 for the first pic and 200 for the second


Right folks, you can now rip me to shreds! Clearly I had no idea what I was doing and should have left it in a pre-set mode....

Zoomed in my kids have a blur/out of focus look but the background is sharp enough. I'm guessing shutter speed and metrix metering combo played a big part in this. I also tried the 3D tracking option tonight out of curiosity and it seemed to work better tracking them running around.
 
With these small copies of the pictures the first thing to strike me is how different the exposures are, visually, and of course the difference in auto ISO value is further confirmation. This is very likely due to the different composition including more or less of the sky - the very thing that auto exposure can get so wrong and which manual exposure can help you avoid. With skies like those the lighting is not going to be changing rapidly, if at all, and with manual exposure once you had it right it would stay right. Manual is how I'd be shooting in lighting like this.

As for the softness, it is hard to tell at this size, but as clear as day when viewing larger versions. With the subjects approaching directly towards the camera I don't think blur is the big issue here, although a little more shutter speed wouldn't hurt. I think the camera/lens has simply failed to keep up with the pace of movement with the subjects so close to the camera. Personally I'd be moving further back and using a longer focal length. Not only would I avoid a kick in the spheroids but I'd also reduce the relative closing speed of the subjects. Also, and this is very much a creative choice, by narrowing the angle of view I'd reduce the amount of background included within the scene and create a little more background blur.

On top of that, it does take a moment for the camera to get aligned to the pace of subject movement. I may be wrong, but I would guess that maybe you are not giving the camera sufficient time to lock on and track the motion. Ideally you would want to start focusing when they were at the rear of their swing and track them as they came towards you. Once their position was right in the frame you would then release the shutter.
 
Colin, all I can say is Phil V is your man for advice and knowledge, he is correct in all aspects of advice given, don't jump straight into manual, you wouldn't complete secondary school before completing primary school now would you?
 
I don't think exposure is your big problem here. The first is under exposed but the second one looks quite well exposed to me. On account of upping the ISO of course.

1/160 is quite slow for this sort of movement, I would aim higher particularly as you're at such low ISO so don't be shy to crank it up a little to get a faster shutter speed. You'll not trouble your camera until well up the iso range.

Here's the problem as I see it. Exif data says this:

Focus Mode AF-S
AFArea Mode Single Area
Phase Detect AF On (11-point)
Primary AFPoint Lower-right
AFPoints Used Lower-right

I would use AF-C not AF-S for something moving otherwise by the time the shot is taken, your subject might have moved out of focus.

A bigger issue appears to be that you were using the lower right focal point, it's going to be missing your subject all together and has therefore focused on the background. As I mentioned earlier, centre point is generally best for this stuff and aim to keep it over your subject whilst keeping shutter button half pressed. If you press the okay button in the middle of the direction pad the focal point should return to the centre unless it's deselected in the menu. Quite a handy feature sometimes.
 
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Colin, all I can say is Phil V is your man for advice and knowledge, he is correct in all aspects of advice given, don't jump straight into manual, you wouldn't complete secondary school before completing primary school now would you?

Maybe listened to too many youtube tutorials saying turn the auto mode off NOW or you won't learn...



I don't think exposure is your big problem here. The first is under exposed but the second one looks quite well exposed to me. On account of upping the ISO of course.

1/160 is quite slow for this sort of movement, I would aim higher particularly as you're at such low ISO so don't be shy to crank it up a little to get a faster shutter speed. You'll not trouble your camera until well up the iso range.

Here's the problem as I see it. Exif data says this:

Focus Mode AF-S
AFArea Mode Single Area
Phase Detect AF On (11-point)
Primary AFPoint Lower-right
AFPoints Used Lower-right


I would use AF-C not AF-S for something moving otherwise by the time the shot is taken, your subject might have moved out of focus.

A bigger issue appears to be that you were using the lower right focal point, it's going to be missing your subject all together and has therefore focused on the background. As I mentioned earlier, centre point is generally best for this stuff and aim to keep it over your subject whilst keeping shutter button half pressed. If you press the okay button in the middle of the direction pad the focal point should return to the centre unless it's deselected in the menu. Quite a handy feature sometimes.

How do you know this as I don't even know?! :lol:


I thought through the viewfinder the centre AF point was always the one it would focus on? I know how to scan through these points on a Canon camera but I have no idea how to do it on a Nikon (not that it would probably matter given these shots).
 
Maybe listened to too many youtube tutorials saying turn the auto mode off NOW or you won't learn...


How do you know this as I don't even know?! :lol:


I thought through the viewfinder the centre AF point was always the one it would focus on? I know how to scan through these points on a Canon camera but I have no idea how to do it on a Nikon (not that it would probably matter given these shots).

The exif data leaves nothing to the imagination. I even know what colur underpants you were wearing that day :)

In single point focus mode (which I always use for everything), you just switch between focus points with the round directional pad. The focal point in use is normally highlighted in some way, probably a box around it but again check that your menu has focus point illumination turned on.
 
With these small copies of the pictures the first thing to strike me is how different the exposures are, visually, and of course the difference in auto ISO value is further confirmation. This is very likely due to the different composition including more or less of the sky - the very thing that auto exposure can get so wrong and which manual exposure can help you avoid. With skies like those the lighting is not going to be changing rapidly, if at all, and with manual exposure once you had it right it would stay right. Manual is how I'd be shooting in lighting like this.

As for the softness, it is hard to tell at this size, but as clear as day when viewing larger versions. With the subjects approaching directly towards the camera I don't think blur is the big issue here, although a little more shutter speed wouldn't hurt. I think the camera/lens has simply failed to keep up with the pace of movement with the subjects so close to the camera. Personally I'd be moving further back and using a longer focal length. Not only would I avoid a kick in the spheroids but I'd also reduce the relative closing speed of the subjects. Also, and this is very much a creative choice, by narrowing the angle of view I'd reduce the amount of background included within the scene and create a little more background blur.

On top of that, it does take a moment for the camera to get aligned to the pace of subject movement. I may be wrong, but I would guess that maybe you are not giving the camera sufficient time to lock on and track the motion. Ideally you would want to start focusing when they were at the rear of their swing and track them as they came towards you. Once their position was right in the frame you would then release the shutter.

Thanks for the advise too, however how would I go about setting my camera to track a moving object. Didnt even think it would be able to do that.
 
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