Strobes and capacitors

gman

gman

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Is there anywhere which tells you how many capacitors each of the manufacturers use in their studio strobes?

I'm becoming more and more curious as it appears to be quite an important factor, yet I can't find any supporting documentation? :shrug:
 
its kinda pointless because the actual number is just bragging rights theres a lot there that you just won't understand. Work from performance vs price vs other features not what you think you should understand

or necessarily what GE rambles about
 
GE rambles about it because it's important. Not everybody seems to understand that.
Most manufacturers don't seem to think that you should know about these things, so it can be hard to find out.

GE is currently working on a project to provide info on colour temperature, flash duration, flash energy consistency and number of capacitors for various makes of heads.
 
well the average user will only care about the first 3, and they seem to come up for most manufacturers with a quick google
 
you should probably learn what the lights are called first. they are not strobes


gman said:
Is there anywhere which tells you how many capacitors each of the manufacturers use in their studio strobes?

I'm becoming more and more curious as it appears to be quite an important factor, yet I can't find any supporting documentation? :shrug:
Click to expand...
 
david1701 said:
well the average user will only care about the first 3, and they seem to come up for most manufacturers with a quick google
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Well, even if they do come up on searches it could be a big mistake to assume that the figures are always based on truth...
There are reputable firms out there, and there are others.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Well, even if they do come up on searches it could be a big mistake to assume that the figures are always based on truth...
There are reputable firms out there, and there are others.
Click to expand...

There are often different ways of measuring and presenting the same thing. The often used one is average - mean, modal or median? Companies, governments etc have a habit of using the method of measurement that gives them the answer they want.

Lies, damn lies and statistics:bang:
 
POAH said:
you should probably learn what the lights are called first. they are not strobes
Click to expand...

Please don't be so cheeky.

Enough people use that term and it has no bearing on my question, so what's your problem?


http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/strobes.htm
http://www.studiolighting.net/choosing-the-right-studio-strobe
http://www.digital-slr-guide.com/studio-strobes.html
http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_6546006_use-studio-strobes.html
http://www.bowens.co.uk/photo.htm (look at the title of the website)



Garry, I found this online which seems quite interesting, I never realised the capacitors were that big!

I understand the logic you've previously mentioned behind the use of more (and presumably smaller) capacitors and I'm guessing the quality of the capicitors will also be important. It would be good to see some researched documentation on it for more detail - specifically if anywhere has done tests on this?

If not then it will be interesting to see the results of your own project! :)
 
Garry Edwards said:
Well, even if they do come up on searches it could be a big mistake to assume that the figures are always based on truth...
There are reputable firms out there, and there are others.
Click to expand...

so this scheme you're planning were you doing it or was it gonna be an established firm or a trusted third party

gman said:
Garry, I found this online which seems quite interesting, I never realised the capacitors were that big!

I understand the logic you've previously mentioned behind the use of more (and presumably smaller) capacitors and I'm guessing the quality of the capicitors will also be important. It would be good to see some researched documentation on it for more detail - specifically if anywhere has done tests on this?

If not then it will be interesting to see the results of your own project! :)
Click to expand...

again with the you won't understand it so whats the point you knowing it
 
I'm no electrical engineer but as I understand it, (IN SIMPLETON TERMS).

A flash tube needs X amount of energy for it to work, capacitors in a studio head act as storage cells for that energy so that it is ready to use in an instant. For a flash tube to work properly it needs x amount of capacitance to supply the amount of energy it needs to output the desired energy (W/S). So in effect 1 capacitor of the correct value is all that is needed, However this is not ideal as it takes longer, Relatively, to recharge and empty this large capacitor resulting in longer flash durations, unreliable colour consistency and slower recharge speeds. So it does stand to reason that lots of smaller capacitors are better but they are just one part of the design! The performance, build quality and functions all play an equal part in comparing flash heads in a particular price bracket.

All of the above could be totally wrong and TBH it doesn't matter which brings me to MY point: Although no manufacturer states the quality and quantity of each and every component within it's flash heads they do however publish the full performance figures. Only you know what qualities are most important to you, (if you don't then you should do some research), as such you should be making your own mind up as to which flash head suits your needs most not letting other people tell you which is best.
 
Graham,
It's a complicated subject and unfortunately the people who don't understand it tend to decry its importance.
I have a personal interest in these things - there are websites/bloggs out there that publish info on what's available but it seems to me that the source of their info can be a bit limited, and so they can only publish blurb rather than hard info.

I have all the measuring tools, plus access to various makes of flash heads but it's obvious to me that if I publish the results of tests, firms such as Bron, Profoto, Elinchrom etc are far more likely to be happy with them than some of the others, and more happy than some of the people reading this forum...

So my own research will probably remain private.

The subject of false claims came up during the lighting workshop I ran last Sunday and I showed some people colour temp and flash energy tests carried out on a flash by one of the firms that make optimistic claims about the performance of the lights they sell. They claim that their lights are consistent to 100K (and AFAIK that statement is only true of some Bron lights) One of the people who say those figures was Darren (Cowasaki), who can confirm what he saw. He can't however tell you the name of the seller concerned because I didn't tell anyone that.
 
onform said:
A flash tube needs X amount of energy for it to work, capacitors in a studio head act as storage cells for that energy so that it is ready to use in an instant. For a flash tube to work properly it needs x amount of capacitance to supply the amount of energy it needs to output the desired energy (W/S). So in effect 1 capacitor of the correct value is all that is needed
Click to expand...

That may be true for a single power output. But how do you get lower power? Throttle the capacitor? Turn off some of the capacitors? Use IGBT tech?

All of those are going to affect duration, colour, recycle etc.

It may not help me to know the number or type of capacitors (people seem to rave about Rubicons but really it's all too much for me) but in the absence of an industry standards set of stats I guess it would be a start.

@Gman - a generous returns policy and a screwdriver could answer some of this :naughty:.
 
onform said:
A flash tube needs X amount of energy for it to work, capacitors in a studio head act as storage cells for that energy so that it is ready to use in an instant. For a flash tube to work properly it needs x amount of capacitance to supply the amount of energy it needs to output the desired energy (W/S). So in effect 1 capacitor of the correct value is all that is needed, However this is not ideal as it takes longer, Relatively, to recharge and empty this large capacitor resulting in longer flash durations, unreliable colour consistency and slower recharge speeds.
Click to expand...
Basically that's right.
Also, although a single capacitor (or a small number of capacitors) is theoretically OK if the power of the flash head isn't adjustable, modern flash heads have a wide range of adjustment and need to have a means of achieving reduced power.
When there are a lot of capacitors it's possible to reduce power simply by switching out capacitors.
When there are very few capacitors the method involves using a potentiometer to reduce the voltage, which causes wild colour shifts and long flash duration.

That's an oversimplification but I think it begins to explain why the number of capacitors is important.
 
david1701 said:
again with the you won't understand it so whats the point you knowing it
Click to expand...

I appreciate what you are trying to say but it's a bit insulting to say I won't understand it as you don't really know what I can and can't understand. I studied Electronic & Electrical Engineering at Paisley Uni, it was a long time ago but my general skill of understanding this subject isn't that bad :lol:

I like to know how things work, always have. To dismiss it in the fear of not understanding isn't in my nature ;)


Garry, why keep them private? If it's pucker tests etc then wouldn't that be benefical to others as like you say, companies can bend the truth and claim all sorts.
 
JonathanRyan said:
@Gman - a generous returns policy and a screwdriver could answer some of this :naughty:.
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lol, I would have no problem at all with taking the casing off my monolight (there, happy Poah? Now go and annoy Rob ;)) but not until the warranty has expired and those bad boys have discharged fully!
 
gman said:
Garry, why keep them private? If it's pucker tests etc then wouldn't that be benefical to others as like you say, companies can bend the truth and claim all sorts.
Click to expand...
I'd just get flak from some of the people who have posted in this thread. I don't need the hassle.

But anyone who wants to is very welcome to bring their own equipement, of any make, to my studio by arrangement and put it on the testing rig.
 
Garry Edwards said:
I'd just get flak from some of the people who have posted in this thread. I don't need the hassle.

But anyone who wants to is very welcome to bring their own equipement, of any make, to my studio by arrangement and put it on the testing rig.
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I appreciate what you are saying although if it's accurate with proof then how can people argue, they'll just have to accept it surely?

I may just take you up on that offer when I get the time (moving house at the moment) - would be interesting for me. :)
 
gman said:
I appreciate what you are saying although if it's accurate with proof then how can people argue, they'll just have to accept it surely?

I may just take you up on that offer when I get the time (moving house at the moment) - would be interesting for me. :)
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I think that the people who really know me won't need proof, but some of the ones who don't know me wouldn't believe me even if I could produce proof - and I don't see how I could provide the proof anyway.
 
enough people calling them strobes is irrelavent - strobes are not studio flashes. certainly you can get certain flash guns to strobe i.e flash at specific frequency buyt they are not stobes


gman said:
Please don't be so cheeky.

Enough people use that term and it has no bearing on my question, so what's your problem?


http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/strobes.htm
http://www.studiolighting.net/choosing-the-right-studio-strobe
http://www.digital-slr-guide.com/studio-strobes.html
http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_6546006_use-studio-strobes.html
http://www.bowens.co.uk/photo.htm (look at the title of the website)



Garry, I found this online which seems quite interesting, I never realised the capacitors were that big!

I understand the logic you've previously mentioned behind the use of more (and presumably smaller) capacitors and I'm guessing the quality of the capicitors will also be important. It would be good to see some researched documentation on it for more detail - specifically if anywhere has done tests on this?

If not then it will be interesting to see the results of your own project! :)
Click to expand...
 
The subject of false claims came up during the lighting workshop I ran last Sunday and I showed some people colour temp and flash energy tests carried out on a flash by one of the firms that make optimistic claims about the performance of the lights they sell. They claim that their lights are consistent to 100K (and AFAIK that statement is only true of some Bron lights) One of the people who say those figures was Darren (Cowasaki), who can confirm what he saw. He can't however tell you the name of the seller concerned because I didn't tell anyone that.
Click to expand...

I think we all know who you are talking about, but I won't reveal, and understand fully why you don't want to mention names.

Ok, so, keep the brand quiet... but what variation DID you find in the lights of this unnamed brand? OK, if they didn't meet their spec - but what did you find to be the actual results? I'm genuinely interested, not trying to troll, wind up or anything. By PM is fine if you're not comfortable posting publicly.
 
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onform said:
I'm no electrical engineer but as I understand it, (IN SIMPLETON TERMS).

A flash tube needs X amount of energy for it to work, capacitors in a studio head act as storage cells for that energy so that it is ready to use in an instant. For a flash tube to work properly it needs x amount of capacitance to supply the amount of energy it needs to output the desired energy (W/S). So in effect 1 capacitor of the correct value is all that is needed, However this is not ideal as it takes longer, Relatively, to recharge and empty this large capacitor resulting in longer flash durations, unreliable colour consistency and slower recharge speeds. So it does stand to reason that lots of smaller capacitors are better but they are just one part of the design! The performance, build quality and functions all play an equal part in comparing flash heads in a particular price bracket.

All of the above could be totally wrong and TBH it doesn't matter which brings me to MY point: Although no manufacturer states the quality and quantity of each and every component within it's flash heads they do however publish the full performance figures. Only you know what qualities are most important to you, (if you don't then you should do some research), as such you should be making your own mind up as to which flash head suits your needs most not letting other people tell you which is best.
Click to expand...

... add this to the mix - you can switch some capacitors off for the lower flash powers. There are a lot of ways to skin a rabbit

In that way the shape and duration of the output pulse the capacitors give you remains relativity constant for a range of "power outputs"
 
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Richard King said:
... add this to the mix - you can switch some capacitors off for the lower flash powers. There are a lot of ways to skin a rabbit

In that way the shape and duration of the output pulse the capacitors give you remains relativity constant for a range of "power outputs"
Click to expand...

but do you care how it was skinned just that it was skinned to your requirements
 
POAH said:
enough people calling them strobes is irrelavent - strobes are not studio flashes. certainly you can get certain flash guns to strobe i.e flash at specific frequency buyt they are not stobes
Click to expand...

Your comments so far are also irrelavent, uphelpful and off-topic. If you are going to try and correct someone it helps to also say what the correct answer is. So far you haven't, in fact you are also wrong as "monolight" is the correct term.

Personally, I couldn't care less as everyone knows what I mean whether I call it a strobe, monolight, monobloc, flash or big metal thing that flashes. I don't know what's up with you today but seriously, go find someone else to pester, alright?


Garry, not saying you need proof but more a case of simply documenting your findings through equipment used, methods untaken and photos to demonstrate the results. Obviously it's up to you, I just figured it would have made good reading :)
 
gman said:
Garry, not saying you need proof but more a case of simply documenting your findings through equipment used, methods untaken and photos to demonstrate the results. Obviously it's up to you, I just figured it would have made good reading :)
Click to expand...
As I see it, it's just a question of trust. It's painfully obvious that there are a few people on this forum who think that they know it all and who believe that any tests that I might publish must be skewed in favour of or against someone.

Only I know whether my tests are carried out honestly or not and only I know whether my Minolta color temperature meter, my Minolta flash meter and my Hantek oscillipscope are accurate and correctly calibrated, and the only way that I can prove that is to have an electronics engineer or a professor of physics standing over me when I carry out the tests - and even then, someone would probably say that he's my brother or on the payroll:'(

I genuinely believe that these tests would help people to make good buying decisions and that they would also help manufacturers, most of which make good quality flash equipment that is fit for purpose. But I doubt whether everyone whose equipment I might test would be happy with the results, and there would be the usual threats of legal action etc. :lol:

I don't want to be unhelpful, but it just isn't worth the hassle. But my offer stands, to you and to everyone else. I'll test your flash head for you in your presence and you can publish the results if you want to.
 
How would knowing how many capacitors are in my Elinchroms help me in taking better pictures?
 
Kris said:
How would knowing how many capacitors are in my Elinchroms help me in taking better pictures?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if this is a rhetorical question but if not then this is my point as it highlights that maybe, just maybe, the quantity and of course the quality of the capacitors is actually quite important? At present it is disregarded, but maybe it shouldn't be? Does it bear relevance to other quoted stats?

It will never be known though unless some published research is done so we therefore have to rely on the combination of advertised statistics and user reviews.

What's grabbed me here is that it actually makes sense to me on a logical and theoretical level and therefore it would be interesting to see it put into practice.
 
Kris said:
How would knowing how many capacitors are in my Elinchroms help me in taking better pictures?
Click to expand...

LOL ;) It's not something I worry about! I have Elinchrom D-Lites of relatively modest spec (I think they have less capacitors than most) but I have never found them wanting in either consistency of power or colour. Indeed, they have a greater range of power adjustment than most - 5 stops - and I can adjust them with great accuracy in 10th stop increments. I really appeciate the control they give me in various ways compared to rivals (I won't mention the multi-controllable modelling lights :D ).

Does more equal better? Do more glass elements make for a better lens? Depends. It actually depends more on the quality of that glass than the amount of it, eg when Canon stick a fluorite element in one of their L lenses, it's flippin magic - but costs a fortune. Ditto aspherical surfaces, ED glass etc etc.

My car has a thumping great V8 in it, which is obviously wonderful, but I can tell you there are huge downsides to that. Size, weight, cost, horrific fuel consumption, and just the other day I was overtaken at a seriously illegal speed by a four-pot Golf diesel :'(

In today's competitive and over-crowded consumer marketplace, it often boils down to the brand as the best indicator of quality and performance. I also think Garry is doing a great job with Lencarta, which doesn't really have a strong public brand profile yet (Len Who?). They need all the help they can get as they don't have a retail presence, no sales peeps to do the fast talking and most people buy them blind. They need all the marketing smoke and mirrors they can get.
 
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Richard,

Part of what you say is right. Just putting a large number of bulky capacitors into a flash head doesn't necessarily make it good in terms of colour and/or energy consistency and there are a small number of Companies that have managed to produce good flash heads without going down this route.

The latest Elinchrom D-Lite has excellent consistency and (although this is not a definitive statement because I haven't yet tested every single flash head of this size) it's the best I've found at its price point so far, by a small margin. They've achieved these results by using some pretty clever circuitry that takes up less space than extra capacitors so yes, it can be done.

They've also had the good sense to limit the range of power adjustment, because too much power adjustment does have a serious impact on the quality of the light. It adjusts down to 1/16th of full power (I call that 4 stops not 5) but by restricting it to 4 stops they've avoided the wild inconsistency that often accompanies that 5th or even 6th or 7th stop of power adjustment.

The problem, as I see it, is with many of the lights that are made down to a price rather than up to a quality standard and which have a far greater range of power adjustment than they can actually perform at, probably for pure marketing purposes, than they should. Having said that, the poor-performing flash head that I've mentioned is poor at all power settings, not just the lower ones.

I'm not sure that your car analogy is all that relevant because there are a lot of different types of cars, each of which has a different role to play. I have a car that's great on the road but, with rear wheel drive, fat tyres etc it's totally useless whenever it finds a bit of mud or snow, so I also have a clunky, heavyweight 4 x 4, simply because I use it off road reguarly. A friend of mine has a Chelsea Tractor, AKA a BMW X5. It handles pretty well, it's fast, comfortable and impresses the females but it doesn't have the ground clearance of a real 4 x 4 and it doesn't have real 4WD, so it's nowhere near as good as my one off road. Flash heads are different though, they all do pretty much the same job as each other and are all used for pretty much the same things. So, IMO, they should all be fit for purpose and they should all publish their true figures and their true specs so that the public can make informed buying decisions.

Whilst it's true that most people do buy their flash heads blind, you're not quite up to date as far as Lencarta is concerned. Lencarta are now selling through large trade customers as well as via the net, so there's absolutely no need for marketing smoke and mirrors - not that there ever has been, because Lencarta have published their figures, given accurate and detailed info about what's inside the flash heads etc ever since I've been involved with them.

The next big step forward in studio flash will be the use of IGBT controllers, and when the stability problems associated with IGBT control have been overcome it should be possible to have much more power adjustment with much better colour and energy consistency, in a physically small space with a lower number of capacitors. But, for now, the number and quality of the capacitors is very relevant.
 
POAH said:
you should probably learn what the lights are called first. they are not strobes
Click to expand...
They are used in two circuits, so it is quite in order to refer to them as strobes or flashtubes, But certainly NOT lights.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Richard,

Part of what you say is right. Just putting a large number of bulky capacitors into a flash head doesn't necessarily make it good in terms of colour and/or energy consistency and there are a small number of Companies that have managed to produce good flash heads without going down this route.

The latest Elinchrom D-Lite has excellent consistency and (although this is not a definitive statement because I haven't yet tested every single flash head of this size) it's the best I've found at its price point so far, by a small margin. They've achieved these results by using some pretty clever circuitry that takes up less space than extra capacitors so yes, it can be done.

They've also had the good sense to limit the range of power adjustment, because too much power adjustment does have a serious impact on the quality of the light. It adjusts down to 1/16th of full power (I call that 4 stops not 5) but by restricting it to 4 stops they've avoided the wild inconsistency that often accompanies that 5th or even 6th or 7th stop of power adjustment.

The problem, as I see it, is with many of the lights that are made down to a price rather than up to a quality standard and which have a far greater range of power adjustment than they can actually perform at, probably for pure marketing purposes, than they should. Having said that, the poor-performing flash head that I've mentioned is poor at all power settings, not just the lower ones.

I'm not sure that your car analogy is all that relevant because there are a lot of different types of cars, each of which has a different role to play. I have a car that's great on the road but, with rear wheel drive, fat tyres etc it's totally useless whenever it finds a bit of mud or snow, so I also have a clunky, heavyweight 4 x 4, simply because I use it off road reguarly. A friend of mine has a Chelsea Tractor, AKA a BMW X5. It handles pretty well, it's fast, comfortable and impresses the females but it doesn't have the ground clearance of a real 4 x 4 and it doesn't have real 4WD, so it's nowhere near as good as my one off road. Flash heads are different though, they all do pretty much the same job as each other and are all used for pretty much the same things. So, IMO, they should all be fit for purpose and they should all publish their true figures and their true specs so that the public can make informed buying decisions.

Whilst it's true that most people do buy their flash heads blind, you're not quite up to date as far as Lencarta is concerned. Lencarta are now selling through large trade customers as well as via the net, so there's absolutely no need for marketing smoke and mirrors - not that there ever has been, because Lencarta have published their figures, given accurate and detailed info about what's inside the flash heads etc ever since I've been involved with them.

The next big step forward in studio flash will be the use of IGBT controllers, and when the stability problems associated with IGBT control have been overcome it should be possible to have much more power adjustment with much better colour and energy consistency, in a physically small space with a lower number of capacitors. But, for now, the number and quality of the capacitors is very relevant.
Click to expand...

Some fair points Garry (yes, four stops in real money, five stops in marketing speak ;) ) but by your own admission more capacitors doesn't necessarily mean better performance, so in that sense to claim that it is in any way a key defining factors is simply untrue, and is in itself misleading.

In the same way as the car analogy. You don't need a huge V8 to get 350bhp and go fast, and my old Subaru had half the engine - in every sense - that I've got in the Audi. But it also had slightly more power from a big turbo and was only two-thirds of the weight, so it was actually quite a lot quicker and much more nimble. A better car? The Audi is more comfortable and the Scooby was more fun, but they both get from A to B pretty quickly.

But then when it comes to ultimate performance, you're probably right. I had a go in a Mercedes Black last week (forgive me, I've got to tell someone that might understand ;) ) which has 661bhp from a 6L twin turbo V12. Sometimes too much of everything is not enough :D

Back to Lencarta, I'm glad you're getting into a few more retail outlets, though I've never seen Lencarta in a shop - Bowens and Elinchrom everywhere, usually Interfit. As we've discussed before, I think a limited presence like this is good, but it will obviously change your supply-direct business model and put prices up. And let's be honest about it, there's nothing special about Lencarta in terms of performance - it's good, reliable kit, which is all that matters really - and it's very good value. That's why I recommend it - it's cheap! Get your website right (which we know it isn't always) as absolute priority, deliver excellent customer service with a no quibble returns policy which I know you do (you should push that more) and get to as many shows, workshops and demonstration opportunities as you possibly can. Keep everyone sweet on TalkPhotography - this place is a gold mine for Lencarta ;) I'll shut up now :D
 
I'm trying to arrange for someone not in any way involved with me or Lencarta to do some testing/measuring and to publish the results. This should deal with any doubts about honesty/credibility/testing methods/whatever.

The equipment currently in my studio includes the latest and best from Profoto, Hensel, Elinchrom, Bowens, Lencarta and some other names. Only problem is that not all of them are mine and they will only be here for a few days, so I've had to ask this guy if he can carry out the tests while they are still here. I'm hoping that he can, and that he may even have some other names that he can bring along for testing too, as he is very involved with flash.
 
Just an update...

Unfortunately it didn't work out as the guy wasn't available while the equipment was at my studio, so although I've measured the equipment myself it just wasn't possible to get those figures verified by someone independant.

Hopefully it will be possible to get it done at some point in the future, and publish the figures. Back to the drawing board:'(
 
Cheers for the update. Was just thinking, is there anywhere that shows a photo of each brand opened up so the quantity and size of capacitors can be seen?
 
gman said:
Cheers for the update. Was just thinking, is there anywhere that shows a photo of each brand opened up so the quantity and size of capacitors can be seen?
Click to expand...

Well, it does on the Lencarta site, but of course it only shows Lencarta products - I have a sneaking suspicion that Lencarta wouldn't be popular if they showed what's inside some of the other brands, and like all reputable firms Lencarta is in the business of showing people why they should buy their products, not why they shouldn't buy competing products.
 
So how many capacitors does it have and is it the same for both the Smartflash and the Elites?
 
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