Street photography cliches

[Richard King]

They want to make pictures which their peers approve of.

This is the whole issue with the process of critique. Unless the person giving the critique is totally impartial and open-minded the whole process tends to push people into producing work that is the same as what the "clique" of people giving critique feel is "right"

That is exactly why I NEVER put my work up for critique. I simply shoot the way I want to. End of

 

[Rankbadyin]

 

[Spooky]

Shoot what the hell you want... it's your camera. Just don't be surprised if people say "Oh ****... not another shot of Durdle Door" or whatever your particular photographic groundhog day is.

Wow! This thread has moved on apace. Lots of opinions in here; the one above reminded me of a conversation I had many moons ago with my photography teacher.

I had shot a roll of colour slide film (that ages me!) for my examination portfolio and was particularly pleased with the results. I was keen to show her the slides when I got into class but was shattered by her response, 'Oh no! Not another shot of THAT viaduct!' I was initially confused because I had not photographed the viaduct before but she went on to say, 'if I see another shot of that viaduct I am resigning on the spot!'

She refused to look at any more of my slides and told me not to put them into my portfolio. She completely ignored the fact that I had taken photos of the same location, from the same spot, across different times of day and night, and that the whole shoot was an experiment in how lighting changes the way a subject / location looks. The slides were never submitted :-(

Thinking back, maybe this was a case of elitism vs creativity. At 18 years old I just didn't see it!

Most people im guessing (in my opinion) would much rather have the composition, framing, so colour sharpness, detail etc be at the forefront of the analysis

I agree with this comment. Any crit that I provide, I will try to address any of the formal elements; any crit I seek I would expect the same. At 39 I can sort the wheat from the chaff.

 

[Spooky]

I should also add that I am going to Devon* this August and I am fully intending to go and shoot Durdle Door, Chisel Beach, Corfe Castle et.al. I may even post a few pics in the landcsape section here; I will probably dare to ask for crit as well because I don't consider my landscape photography to be a strong point and I want to improve it.

Spooks

And - going back to Steve's original post, possibly the key thing that bugs him is the 'blowing smoke up someone's arse' nature of comments on Flickr.

* I mean Dorset

 

[ernesto]

Now you're making assumptions about people's social class? LOL So now we understand where your opinion comes from at least.

I am making no assumptions, the reason I linked to Graysons program was to help people understand why some people may like reality shows, McDonalds etc,. and it is about taste and what drives taste more than class, although the show just looked at it from a class angle.

The main thing I got from the program (and it did change my opinion) was not to be so elititist and to try to understand why others like things that I may have dismissed or put down too easily.

 

[Steve]

And - going back to Steve's original post, possibly the key thing that bugs him is the 'blowing smoke up someone's arse' nature of comments on Flickr.

I think this is probably the key to it, and from the groups I researched on flickr, street photography seems to be particularly afflicted with mutual back slapping comments. I saw one person make identical comments on every photo... I imagine they just copied and pasted this. Hell...they may even have a macro to do it.

Anyway, I have only ever attempted street photography once and this was the result.

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Yes, it's full of cliches.

I'm not saying that beginners must never resort to cliches and would be horrified if my post put someone off trying something new. But, surely anyone who want's to improve in photography (and it's a hobby for me too) will wan't to develop their own original and creative vision?

 

[ernesto]

I'm not saying that beginners must never resort to cliches and would be horrified if my post put someone off trying something new. But, surely anyone who want's to improve in photography (and it's a hobby for me too) will wan't to develop their own original and creative vision?

Change of subject but what about bird photography. Another shot of a lesser spotted warbler in a tree in neither creative or original yet it keeps a lot of photographers busy for many hours at a time. Anything wrong with what they are doing or are they just happy to stick with where they are?

 

[Steve]

Change of subject but what about bird photography. Another shot of a lesser spotted warbler in a tree in neither creative or original yet it keeps a lot of photographers busy for many hours at a time. Anything wrong with what they are doing or are they just happy to stick with where they are?

I don't have a clue about bird photography. I couldn't recognise a lesser spotted warbler. Same for motor photography and sport photography...not genres I know anything about.

 

[ernesto]

I don't have a clue about bird photography. I couldn't recognise a lesser spotted warbler. Same for motor photography and sport photography...not genres I know anything about.

But surely you can see the same would apply and why I raised it?

 

[gramps]

Creative blinkers!

 

[Steve]

But surely you can see the same would apply and why I raised it?

Possibly yes, but I am reluctant to guess about subjects I know nothing about.

 

[PMN]

I am reluctant to guess about subjects I know nothing about.

I have only ever attempted street photography once

Yet you created this thread about street photography?

Am I missing something here or does this not quite tie up?

 

[Steve]

Yet you created this thread about street photography?

Am I missing something here or does this not quite tie up?

I wasn't at the Battle of Hastings, but I know a lot about it.

These comments were after researching a lot about street photography in order to gain an understanding of the genre. So several books, articles and hundreds of images from websites later I feelt I have a sufficient understanding of the genre to comment on it.

I thought I had made this clear, but apologise if it was confusing.

 

[PMN]

I thought I had made this clear

Not really, you spoke about "repetitive dross on Flickr" which doesn't seem too much like research if that's all you've done. Each to their own though.

 

[ernesto]

I wasn't at the Battle of Hastings, but I know a lot about it.

But was the strategy in the Battle of Hastings cliched, that is the important thing here. Nothing worse than non creative war mongery.

 

[Steve]

Not really, you spoke about "repetitive dross on Flickr" which doesn't seem too much like research if that's all you've done. Each to their own though.

Like I say apologies if you found it confusing, but I clearly referenced research in a previous post.

And as for 'all you've done'... well I clearly referenced reading several books and articles.. again apologies if you found this confusing, but this is what research often consists of....reading and examining relevant material.

 

[Steve]

But was the strategy in the Battle of Hastings cliched, that is the important thing here. Nothing worse than non creative war mongery.

It was highly creative and original....hence my approval of it

 

[PMN]

And as for 'all you've done'... well I clearly referenced reading several books and articles

In reply 93 unless I missed it earlier?

 

[ernesto]

It was highly creative and original....hence my approval of it

You approve of war?, I am taking my pacifist ass out of here.

 

[big soft moose]

I should also add that I am going to Devon this August and I am fully intending to go and shoot Durdle Door, Chisel Beach, Corfe Castle et.al..

you may find that difficult - all three are in dorset

 

[Steve]

You approve of war?, I am taking my pacifist ass out of here.

oh really..... c'mon it was a flippant comment in response to an equally flippant one.

 

[Steve]

In reply 93 unless I missed it earlier?

and 86...though not sure why I am having to justify myself

 

[PMN]

you may find that difficult - all three are in dorset

Those two confuse me as well to be honest and I've been to both countless times!

 

[Tucksy81]

Nicely put.

Very well put.

 

[PMN]

and 86...though not sure why I am having to justify myself

Anyone levelling any kind of criticism should provide some kind of justification in my mind otherwise the entire thing's a bit invalid, especially when talking about a subject they have no experience of (even if they have 'researched'). Naturally you're very welcome to disagree, and I'm sure you will.

 

[Spooky]

you may find that difficult - all three are in dorset

That's where I meant!

 

[Steve]

Anyone levelling any kind of criticism should provide some kind of justification in my mind otherwise the entire thing's a bit invalid, especially when talking about a subject they have no experience of (even if they have 'researched'). Naturally you're very welcome to disagree, and I'm sure you will.

So research alone is not sufficient to have an opinion or offer a critique?

 

[PMN]

So research alone is not sufficient to have an opinion or offer a critique?

Of course it is, my point related to the fact it seemed you had no real interest in street photography as you'd never done any and only had a browse through some bits on Flickr. If you've spent time researching it properly then fair enough.

 

[Steve]

Of course it is, my point related to the fact it seemed you had no real interest in street photography as you'd never done any and only had a browse through some bits on Flickr. If you've spent time researching it properly then fair enough.

I've already apologised twice in this thread if it wasn't clear that I have researched this subject and for any confusion this has caused...not sure what more I can say.

 

[PMN]

I've already apologised twice in this thread if it wasn't clear that I have researched this subject and for any confusion this has caused...not sure what more I can say.

I said fair enough! Let's just leave it there...

 

[Steve]

I said fair enough! Let's just leave it there...

agreed

anyway...it pales into insignificance after being accused of being a war mongerer

 

[PMN]

Ha! Yeah, you still have a healthy dislike of tabloids, reality TV and Maccy D's though so it's all good.

 

[big soft moose]

agreed

anyway...it pales into insignificance after being accused of being a war mongerer

have a snickers , i'm sure you're only a warmonger when you are hungry

 

[johnb]

Get out the & take the photograph. A cliched picture is better than no picture!!!

 

[Steve]

have a snickers , i'm sure you're only a warmonger when you are hungry

lol...that and when I'm having my male monthly imbalance.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Why would they need to "stop taking images that have been taken a million times before" in order to improve?
What is wrong with taking an image of Durdle Door that you have never taken before or going back to try taking it a different way,

Nothing. You just rarely see it is all.

Why would they need to "stop taking images that have been taken a million times before" in order to improve?

Because if they don't they'll just take the same images over and over again. How can you improve if you just take the same things repeatedly? You may improve technically... but is that all you want? Also... why take images that are bordering on cliché? Wouldn't like to take images that are refreshing? Are you actually saying that, given a choice, you'd rather NOT take original and refreshing images?

Thinking back, maybe this was a case of elitism vs creativity. At 18 years old I just didn't see it!

She was wrong for not looking at the rest of your work, but if you were taking images that were shot to death, year ion year out, and the only reason you were doing that was because you didn't know it had been shot to death already, does she not have some responsibility to let you know? If she said nothing, it would only be a matter of time before others tell you, and then you;d be blaming her for not telling you that you were taking clichés

The thing that is really sad is this kind of attitude stops timid people even attempting to try new things at risk of being lambasted for not being up to standard. For most, this is a hobby not a life choice, I think that gets lost in translation sometimes.

If delivered in a constructive way.. why shoudl it? WHy should critting someone's creative effort be worse than critting their technical effort? THAT'S what puzzles me. One is acceptable, and one isn't apparently.

You can give crit in a empathic way.. I've given crit where I've merely said words to the effect of "Technically there's a lot going really well here, but perhaps what you need to consider is shooting it in a way that's not already been shot so much so your image is a fresh take on an old subject". Nothing wrong with that I don't think... but it still goes down pretty badly more often than not.

As for critical analysis of other people's work is imagine, 'I think the shots rubbish because it's cliché' argument is an oxymoron, it actually stifles creativity.

Assuming it was delivered in such a way.

It's cliche for a reason, people like clichés.

Speak for yourself.

I am making no assumptions,

I think you did, as you tried to use class to explain why some people like some things and not others. Why do that if you're not making assumptions about the social class of people in here?

"I have referred to it before but Grayson Perry did a great 3 part TV show exploring taste going from working class to upper class which gave a very good perspective on why different classes appreciate different things."

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but that led me to believe there was a class difference between those that see no problem with cliché and those that do.

I hope not... because that's clearly nonsense.

I'm not saying that beginners must never resort to cliches and would be horrified if my post put someone off trying something new.

I really don't see how pointing out that an image is not original, and tired should put anyone off if explained in a constructive way? Why should be it be more off-putting than critting their technique, or need to learn more?

Anyone would think I'm advocating saying "Stop taking clichés!!!... what's wrong with you!". I just don't understand why so many people in here get upset if you crit on a creative level?

Anyone would think you were scared by creativity or something.


There are certain people who deny creativity is important, because it's not something you can learn off a You Tube video, or from a book. It involves unlearning what you know, and starting again... and it' rock hard... and a long haul. People can't be arsed with that. Creativity can be taught though.. it can be developed. It's not something you're either born with, or not. Some are more creative than others is all. Those who find it easy often get complacent, whereas I find those who have to work hard at it end up overtaking those that rest on their laurels.

It's easier however for some people to pretend that photography is not a creative thing.

But, surely anyone who want's to improve in photography (and it's a hobby for me too) will wan't to develop their own original and creative vision?

You'd think so, wouldn't you? Seems not.

Change of subject but what about bird photography. Another shot of a lesser spotted warbler in a tree in neither creative or original yet it keeps a lot of photographers busy for many hours at a time. Anything wrong with what they are doing or are they just happy to stick with where they are?

Good point. For the record.. that bores the pants off me too, but at least that has a scientific purpose as well as aesthetic. I so a lot of astro-imaging.. I like the scientific challenge, but I don't post it for crit.... as there's little to crit except the purely technical. I want that too, but you know what? I post those in an astronomy forum, not a photography one. Wildlife photography CAN be creative though... go look at Andy Rouse... so sorry... no excuse there either.

But surely you can see the same would apply and why I raised it?

Not really... as there is extremely creative wildlife photography out there. You talk as if wildlife photography obeys a separate set of rules. Clearly it doesn't if people like Rouse can manage to make it creative. I don't look at wildlife stuff as a rule, but I bet it has it's own set of clichés just like all genres.. and surely they are to be avoided. If no one strove against them, we'd never progress... they'd never be anything refreshing to look at. Who wants that?

Creative blinkers!

Not really... see above. Plus... how can you defend taking clichés and then accuse someone of creative blinkers??



Anyway... long post apologies.

Get out the & take the photograph. A cliched picture is better than no picture!!!

Absolutely. No on would argue against that. Just keep an open mind.

 

[gramps]

Wouldn't like to take images that are refreshing? Are you actually saying that, given a choice, you'd rather NOT take original and refreshing images?

Who is to say that I am not 'refreshed' by the images I take ... actually the whole purpose of the exercise for me as it is a hobby, a relaxation.
Will I ever shoot anything truly original, I hardly think so unless I happen upon some remarkable news event one day.
In another thread you posted a list of images and togs that were, (I assume), refreshing to you ... the ones I looked at do nothing for me ... I would go so far as to say that if my photography was limited to those type of images I would be 'spiritually' exhausted rather than refreshed.
You see that's the point surely, photography is as different as the number of people using a camera ... who are we to say that another persons photography is in some way 'invalid' because it doesn't meet our idea of greatness?
Do I want to improve my photography?
Yes, but not just to conform to someone else's idea of what is an acceptable image ... what would be the point of that?
Do I want to improve technically?
Yes, and I've a lot to learn there ... I want to do that so that I am better able to capture the images that appeal to me not to satisfy someone else's idea of acceptability.

The analogy was used previously of bird photography, does the 'twitcher-tog' want to turn to fashion? ... the motor sport photographer to child portraits?

how can you defend taking clichés and then accuse someone of creative blinkers??

Blinkered in being unable to see beyond creativity

 

[Pookeyhead]

Who is to say that I am not 'refreshed' by the images I take ... actually the whole purpose of the exercise for me as it is a hobby, a relaxation.
Will I ever shoot anything truly original, I hardly think so unless I happen upon some remarkable news event one day.

What makes you think you will never take an original image?

In another thread you posted a list of images and togs that were, (I assume), refreshing to you ... the ones I looked at do nothing for me

Whether you like it or not isn't the issue... it's whether they are original. You may not like the same stuff I like.. but so what? There will be original and refreshing examples of what you DO like. I know you like street photography... and there are plenty of examples of that that are original and avoid cliché.

... I would go so far as to say that if my photography was limited to those type of images I would be 'spiritually' exhausted rather than refreshed.

No one;s suggesting you take images you don't like. No one;s even suggesting that you don't take street photography either.

My question was though.... given the choice, would you prefer NOT to take original, exciting, and fresh street photography?

You see that's the point surely, photography is as different as the number of people using a camera ... who are we to say that another persons photography is in some way 'invalid' because it doesn't meet our idea of greatness?

No one's suggesting it has to meet a measure of greatness... but perhaps just avoid taking the same images over and over again... If everyone who shot street photography just took people on benches or homeless people in doorways... how long before even you would just get suck to death of seeing it? There simply is more to street photography than the shopping list the OP wrote in post #1.

Do I want to improve my photography?
Yes, but not just to conform to someone else's idea of what is an acceptable image ... what would be the point of that?

No one is asking you to conform to anyone's idea of what's acceptable... quite the opposite. If you regurgitate the same stuff that everyone else is doing... THEN you are conforming, surely?

The analogy was used previously of bird photography, does the 'twitcher-tog' want to turn to fashion? ... the motor sport photographer to child portraits?


Blinkered in being unable to see beyond creativity

Now you've just lost me entirely. No one in here is saying that if you like street photography, you should stop and take fashion, or some other genre. I'm sorry if you think that's what this is about, but it's just not. It's about taking better street photography.

You would enjoy taking street photography no matter what by the sounds of it.. no matter how good or bad it was.... so why not listen to people and improve it? If what you are saying is that you don't need to improve because you're happy as you are... then why have you just told me you would like to improve? Furthermore, why are you arguing with people who are giving you advice on how to improve?

Look at Winogrand's work... look at the variety, excitement, vibrancy, innuendo, pathos, humour, sadness, happiness, anger, love, passion in it.

Look at the LIFE in it.

If you love street photography would you not love to be creating images that light a fire under people like his images do to me? Would that not be a good thing?
If you actually don't like Winogrand, then fine... who does inspire you? You must look at other street photographer's work and admire it.. so what is it about it that you admire?

If not.. then I apologise for trying to help you... carry on as you are if you're happy.

 

[gramps]

What makes you think you will never take an original image?

There is probably nothing truly original left to be photographed, I may do something differently to someone else but I very much doubt anything uniquely so.

Whether you like it or not isn't the issue... it's whether they are original. You may not like the same stuff I like.. but so what? There will be original and refreshing examples of what you DO like. I know you like street photography... and there are plenty of examples of that that are original and avoid cliché.

So much 'original' street I see gives me the feeling that the photographer hit the shutter button by accident ... I don't want to emulate that - it may be that I am nearer candid than street.

No one;s suggesting you take images you don't like. No one;s even suggesting that you don't take street photography either.

My question was though.... given the choice, would you prefer NOT to take original, exciting, and fresh street photography?

I'm certainly not averse to something different and appealing, opportunity is the major factor here.

No one's suggesting it has to meet a measure of greatness...

No one is asking you to conform to anyone's idea of what's acceptable... quite the opposite.

That's not what's coming across here.

Now you've just lost me entirely. No one in here is saying that if you like street photography, you should stop and take fashion, or some other genre. I'm sorry if you think that's what this is about, but it's just not. It's about taking better street photography.

It's an analogy of how some may view doing street or any other type of photography in a different, maybe unappealing way.

You would enjoy taking street photography no matter what by the sounds of it.. no matter how good or bad it was.... so why not listen to people and improve it? If what you are saying is that you don't need to improve because you're happy as you are... then why have you just told me you would like to improve? Furthermore, why are you arguing with people who are giving you advice on how to improve?

Your 'improvement' may by my 'conforming to your ideas rather than mine' - yes I want to improve but as I said I am more concerned with technique that will enable to take my photos better.

If not.. then I apologise for trying to help you... carry on as you are if you're happy.

Now you are being condescending ... you are inferring that your way is right, that my way has no merit ... so helping me in the way that I want is ... well 'unworthy'.
I would venture to say that the majority of members here are 'casual' photographers ... pursuing a hobby but wanting to improve their technique, to get to grips with composition, exposure, processing etc.

Of course I could be wrong, I'm perfectly prepared to accept that.

 

[Pookeyhead]

There is probably nothing truly original left to be photographed, I may do something differently to someone else but I very much doubt anything uniquely so.

No original subject matter, no.. but there's always a fresh take on things. Or failing that... just reviving something that's not been seen in a long time. I think what I'm saying, is don't do what the herd does.

So much 'original' street I see gives me the feeling that the photographer hit the shutter button by accident ... I don't want to emulate that - it may be that I am nearer candid than street.

You'll have to link to something as an example.. I can't think what you're referring to.

I'm certainly not averse to something different and appealing, opportunity is the major factor here.

I'm not so sure it is purely luck. I think what's missing from most street photography is the personality. I really think street photography becomes very boring if you snipe at people with a long lens. I'd get a 35mm on there and mix it up with people... get them interacting with the camera. Get in with crowds, and activities... make the viewer feel involved. Not enough of that lately. That's what made the great pioneers of street so good IMO.

Do you like Garry Winogrand's work?

That's not what's coming across here.

Then I'm sorry you misunderstood. Suggesting one avoids clichés isn't saying that you should strive for greatness or not bother. It means what it means... just strive to avoid doing what everyone else is doing.

You're always immediately defensive when talking to me, and I've no idea why.

It's an analogy of how some may view doing street or any other type of photography in a different, maybe unappealing way.

But you're assuming that to be original means unappealing. Why do you think that? You keep referring to unappealing images, but I've no idea what you're referring to.

Your 'improvement' may by my 'conforming to your ideas rather than mine' - yes I want to improve but as I said I am more concerned with technique that will enable to take my photos better.

Not necessarily. Doing what I do for a living, coupled with over quarter of a century of experience means I can judge what's good or bad without my personal opinions getting in the way. I don't have to like something to see whether it's good or not. It's not about you doing what I tell you to do. I'm not THAT arrogant Just something refreshing... just not a cliché.

Now you are being condescending ... you are inferring that your way is right, that my way has no merit

No.. I'm not... but you are being stubborn. There is no "my way" on the table here... I've not even said what way, if any you shoudl shoot it... just don't shoot what's already been shot to death. Shoot ANYTHING... just don't make a conscious effort to add to the every growing pool of cliché.

... so helping me in the way that I want is ... well 'unworthy'.

Of course not... but is that all you want? Tech crit?

I would venture to say that the majority of members here are 'casual' photographers ... pursuing a hobby but wanting to improve their technique, to get to grips with composition, exposure, processing etc.

But those things alone don't necessarily make a good photograph. In fact.. I KNOW they don't.

Of course I could be wrong, I'm perfectly prepared to accept that.

Really? Then why not consider that you could be.. right now?

You're defensive.. you think I'm out to trash what you do for some reason. I have no reason for doing that. Apart from the love of debate, the biggest reason for me being here is to help people. Go check my post history... see how I spend my time in here. Why do you think I do that?