State Pension?

[ecoleman]

The instances of car batteries catching fire is being grossly exagerated. What is not exagerated however is the damage that can be caused to property as a result of a large lithium battery catching fire by any means. The Fire Service are more concerned over this issue as a lithium battery fire is very difficult to deal with.

Also, the issues of deterioration of an electric vehicle's range and the future problems of disposing of these dead batteries is being surpressed. In Germany the consumers have woken up to these issues and some German manufacturers are revising their decisions to phase out ICE vehicles.

My cousin is the chief fire officer for Jersey. They are extremely concerned about the risks EV's pose. Not only EV's but e-bikes are also major headache for them as they are generally stored and charged indoors.

Whilst the risk of an EV battery just catching fire may be low, it does and has happened and when parked in a multi store car park or in the basement car park of a block of flats with dozens of other EV's that's going to cause unnecessary deaths and damage to property.

The batteries are also at risk when the vehicle is involved in an accident

 

[ecoleman]

Range - rubbish is a subjective word but no, the range is not rubbish. For the majority of the population it's perfectly fine, 12k a year is slightly more than average IIRC and never had an issue. Long trips people should or will stop for 20 mins, and day to day its just topping up at night if needed. If you are an average driver, range is fine and not an issue.

IF you have the means to charge at home.
This is the problem with people like yourself. It's okay for you so it must be okay for everybody else.

 

[Clive K]

My cousin is the chief fire officer for Jersey. They are extremely concerned about the risks EV's pose. Not only EV's but e-bikes are also major headache for them as they are generally stored and charged indoors.

Whilst the risk of an EV battery just catching fire may be low, it does and has happened and when parked in a multi store car park or in the basement car park of a block of flats with dozens of other EV's that's going to cause unnecessary deaths and damage to property.

The batteries are also at risk when the vehicle is involved in an accident

Being concerned about the risks does not equate to the myth that EV's are more likely to self-combust. It is to do with how they can deal with a lithium battery fire.

ICE vehicles can also catch fire after accidents and if they catch fire due to an electrical fault whilst parked in the circumstances that you describe then will also cause damage to third party property. Petrol & diesel tanks in vehicles also catch and spread fire. Not just EVs.

 

[BillN_33]

If you want an EV, used EV's are now very competitively priced and remember most have a battery guarantee of 8 years ......... just read a few reports of high mileage Tesla's and their good battery life after 200,000 miles - same goes for the BMW i3 which IMHO are now a bargain used especially if you do lots of short journeys - perfect for a "State Pensioner"

 

[ecoleman]

If you want an EV, used EV's are now very competitively priced and remember most have a battery guarantee of 8 years ......... just read a few reports of high mileage Tesla's and their good battery life after 200,000 miles - same goes for the BMW i3 which IMHO are now a bargain used especially if you do lots of short journeys

They are well priced because the majority of people don't want them

 

[ecoleman]

Being concerned about the risks does not equate to the myth that EV's are more likely to self-combust. It is to do with how they can deal with a lithium battery fire.

ICE vehicles can also catch fire after accidents and if they catch fire due to an electrical fault whilst parked in the circumstances that you describe then will also cause damage to third party property. Petrol & diesel tanks in vehicles also catch and spread fire. Not just EVs.

Okay. If you say so.

 

[BillN_33]

They are well priced because the majority of people don't want them

I thought sales of EV's were increasing?

"The proportion of new cars that are electric has grown from 6.6% in 2020, to 16.8% in 2024" - quote from Zap map - but there are other sources

"Used car sales: In the first quarter of 2024, sales of used electric cars were 71% higher than the same period in 2023."

 

[Clive K]

Okay. If you say so.

Not just me;

Data obtained by Air Quality News through a Freedom of Information (FOI) request revealed that in 2019 the London Fire Brigade dealt with just 54 electric vehicle fires compared to 1,898 petrol and diesel fires.

Although these fires remain rare, when they do occur, they can be extremely dangerous.

During an electric vehicle fire, over 100 organic chemicals are generated, including some incredibly toxic gases such as carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide – both of which are fatal to humans.

Electric Vehicles | Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service

www.bedsfire.gov.uk

 

[ecoleman]

I thought sales of EV's were increasing?

There are also reports of manufacturers restricting ICE sales to meet EV sales targets.

KPI's are and always has been a stupid way to monitor results.

 

[Mr Bump]

You just can't stand the fact that I, along with many others have different views to you.

I love that my signature winds you up so much. That's why it's there.
It must keep you up at night with cold sweats.

haha wow you generally think i think of you like that?
I just find it so weird you wear your "badge" so openly and as you say a self declared idiot.

i liken you to me walking into citizens advice centre and finding Tommy Robinson sat down saying

can i help you today sir?

 

[Mr Bump]

I am totally happy with people not wanting EVs as they live in a Victorian terrace and so cannot charge at home, or those that do 300 miles a day, or those that have a good car and don't want to or cannot afford to change. All valid reasons. It's the lies that are spread about them spontaneously catching fire, or that the range is rubbish, or you spend all day charging that annoy me.

I can only speak as someone who has moved from ICE to EV a year ago. Why? Noting to do with being green, I liked the look of Tesla, liked the interior and mainly the performance and acceleration. Not something I could have afforded had I got a similar ICE BMW or something - even the Kia Stinger would have been more and the new Sportage was more money too. So for my budget it was the best car I could afford. Most people will rarely use a public charger, so the argument on range and charging is irrelevant for most - like I said, have done 12k miles in a year and used only on long trips.

don't play his game mate
quite a few of my friends have gone pure EV and say the same won't go back
never been so cheap to run a car etc but we need to understand there are people like him that fight change just because they can i bit like charlton heston and his gun rights

what was it he said you can take my gun from his cold dead hand......... and then he died

 

[cambsno]

My cousin is the chief fire officer for Jersey. They are extremely concerned about the risks EV's pose. Not only EV's but e-bikes are also major headache for them as they are generally stored and charged indoors.

Whilst the risk of an EV battery just catching fire may be low, it does and has happened and when parked in a multi store car park or in the basement car park of a block of flats with dozens of other EV's that's going to cause unnecessary deaths and damage to property.

The batteries are also at risk when the vehicle is involved in an accident

In the same way the ICE car did at Luton airport?

 

[cambsno]

IF you have the means to charge at home.
This is the problem with people like yourself. It's okay for you so it must be okay for everybody else.

Thats not what I am saying - I have said already if you live in a Victorian terrace it may not be the best idea. I am realistic and so IF you have the ability to charge at home, and many have, then range is not the issue you claim. If you live in a tower block and do 200 miles a day then an EV is a silly choice. But live in a house with driveway range is fine

 

[Clive K]

don't play his game mate
quite a few of my friends have gone pure EV and say the same won't go back
never been so cheap to run a car etc but we need to understand there are people like him that fight change just because they can i bit like charlton heston and his gun rights

what was it he said you can take my gun from his cold dead hand......... and then he died

There are many reasons why I would not buy an EV. Initial cost, depreciation, diminishing range year on year, the unknown effects that restrict range such as stop-start situations in motorway congestion, use of heater, air-con, lights, etc. that could seriously affect your journey. The biggest issue is that the cost of replacing the battery may be more than the car is worth when the time comes. Also, I believe that the ecological cost of building battery powered cars isn't much less if anything than running an existing ICE vehicle so why change? And, when China, India, Brazil et al are pumping so much pollution into the atmosphere isn't your purchase of an EV a bit like pi$$ing into the wind from a soapbox made out of smugness?

An impartial view here;

Electric Shock: An Existential Crisis in the German Auto Industry

Electric cars are selling poorly, and many German manufacturers are still focusing on the combustion engine. The threat from cheaper Chinese competitors is growing. Might this be the death knell of Germany's fabled automobile industry?

www.spiegel.de

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Some (hopefully) factual information about sales of electric cars to private buyers...

Electric cars lose market share as private sales fall

Car sales overall grew in March but fewer individuals are buying electric vehicles.

www.bbc.co.uk

I find it interesting that the makers and sellers of these vehicles want the rest of us to subsidise the few people who may be persuaded to buy the things. Surely, if electric vehicle are such a good idea, the manufacturers should be fully stretched to supply enough vehicles to the long queues?

 

[lindsay]

I do think the arguments for full-EV cars are losing ground when you consider the carbon cost of manufacture and battery production, but the various negatives about their operation mentioned above (cost, depreciation, diminishing range, effects of aircon and other things on range) actually all apply to ICE cars too more or less (premium saloons and SUV's anyway). I think the biggest threat to the EV sales growth though is that synthetic ICE fuels are being developed with great success by all accounts, so that longer term there really will be a case for genuine hybrids offering the performance and economy of EV together with the efficiency and range of ICE-hybrid. At least that's my view. It's of no consequence to me really though as I can't foresee getting rid of either of my diesel vehicles (Mazda 6 estate and VW Transporter camper van) before I give up or lose my licence through age. I like them and don't want to change them.

 

[cambsno]

There are many reasons why I would not buy an EV. Initial cost, depreciation, diminishing range year on year, the unknown effects that restrict range such as stop-start situations in motorway congestion, use of heater, air-con, lights, etc. that could seriously affect your journey. The biggest issue is that the cost of replacing the battery may be more than the car is worth when the time comes. Also, I believe that the ecological cost of building battery powered cars isn't much less if anything than running an existing ICE vehicle so why change? And, when China, India, Brazil et al are pumping so much pollution into the atmosphere isn't your purchase of an EV a bit like pi$$ing into the wind from a soapbox made out of smugness?

An impartial view here;

Electric Shock: An Existential Crisis in the German Auto Industry

Electric cars are selling poorly, and many German manufacturers are still focusing on the combustion engine. The threat from cheaper Chinese competitors is growing. Might this be the death knell of Germany's fabled automobile industry?

www.spiegel.de

The way I buy my cars is on PCP type plans, so for me it's a monthly cost - factored into that is the running cost. My old Sportage was 350pm, new Sportage would have been 500pm, Tesla was 480pm, but I also save approx 100-140 a month on fuel so broadly speaking no more money to spend on the Tesla v Sportage. So for me depreciation etc are not an issue. If I was buying a car for cash, maybe.

Stop start has minimal wear on battery - stuck in a jam will not make much difference. Its only if your caught on 5% then thats an issue but much the same running heaters in ICE when very low on fuel. They would not seriously affect journey.

Ecological I don't care about it being better/same/worse and agree that what China etc do makes us irrelevant. I guess one positive is the air quality - no fumes.

 

[Sky]

I'm forced to use an electric vehicle in the shape of a powered wheelchair. In fact I have several because they are crap and hugely inefficient (although I'm grateful for the pain relief) and the batteries have to be replaced at least once a year.

To get a car that will carry an electric wheelchair costs at least three times as much as an ordinary car - an electric wheelchair adapted car will cost telephone numbers.

I compensate for this by throwing a manual wheelchair in the back and driving a big diesel 4x4 - a Range Rover.

 

[JonathanRyan]

Wait, this thread is about pensions, right?

 

[Graham W]

Wait, this thread is about pensions, right?

Oh yeah...Anyway, about my pension?

 

[Clive K]

I do think the arguments for full-EV cars are losing ground when you consider the carbon cost of manufacture and battery production, but the various negatives about their operation mentioned above (cost, depreciation, diminishing range, effects of aircon and other things on range) actually all apply to ICE cars too more or less (premium saloons and SUV's anyway). I think the biggest threat to the EV sales growth though is that synthetic ICE fuels are being developed with great success by all accounts, so that longer term there really will be a case for genuine hybrids offering the performance and economy of EV together with the efficiency and range of ICE-hybrid. At least that's my view. It's of no consequence to me really though as I can't foresee getting rid of either of my diesel vehicles (Mazda 6 estate and VW Transporter camper van) before I give up or lose my licence through age. I like them and don't want to change them.

Agreed. And I will be blatting our 2.7 Merc' diesel motorhome down the Autoroute tomorrow without a care in the world. It was bought and paid for with grey pounds from our pensions

Regards the stop, start, aircon, heating issue; yes it does affect fuel consumption. But has nowhere near the implications of getting stuck in a motorway jam with one or the other on eating away at the battery reserve you are relying on to get to your destination.

 

[ecoleman]

Thats not what I am saying - I have said already if you live in a Victorian terrace it may not be the best idea. I am realistic and so IF you have the ability to charge at home, and many have, then range is not the issue you claim. If you live in a tower block and do 200 miles a day then an EV is a silly choice. But live in a house with driveway range is fine

But they are STILL being forced onto all of us.

I have nothing against EVs. I don’t think they are for me (and that has nothing to do with being able to charge at home. I can) and they’re certainly not going to work for much of Britain. What I am against is them being rammed down our throats and my tax money being used to help rich people buy them.

 

[ecoleman]

Agreed. And I will be blatting our 2.7 Merc' diesel motorhome down the Autoroute tomorrow without a care in the world. It was bought and paid for with grey pounds from our pensions

Regards the stop, start, aircon, heating issue; yes it does affect fuel consumption. But has nowhere near the implications of getting stuck in a motorway jam with one or the other on eating away at the battery reserve you are relying on to get to your destination.

Not to worry. The RAC can come out and give you a charge with a diesel generator or tow you away in their big diesel truck.

 

[Clive K]

Not to worry. The RAC can come out and give you a charge with a diesel generator or tow you away in their big diesel truck.

I think that you have got me confused with somebody else. I don't have an EV.

 

[ecoleman]

I think that you have got me confused with somebody else. I don't have an EV.

No not confused.

It was a reply to your second paragraph. The use of the word YOU is just a figure of speech.

 

[lindsay]

But they are STILL being forced onto all of us.

I have nothing against EVs. I don’t think they are for me (and that has nothing to do with being able to charge at home. I can) and they’re certainly not going to work for much of Britain. What I am against is them being rammed down our throats and my tax money being used to help rich people buy them.

Are they really forcing it onto all of us? As far as I was aware the policy is just to not permit the sale of NEW ICE cars after 2030 or 2035 or sometime (most likely later than sooner), so unless someone wishes to buy a new passenger car after that date, it won't change anything. In a way it is helpful because it will improve demand for used ICE cars and thus their resale price, whilst vans and trucks (I think) will be unaffected.
As to our tax being used to fund rich people's car choices, isn't that another example of the capitalist system - robbing the poor(er) to feed the rich(er) whilst making it look like the rich pay more tax than the poor? In any case, I think it depends whether you feel you are paying more tax than you should. IMHO we generally pay much less tax here than most developed countries (at least I think we do, with notable exceptions like Hong Kong and Ireland) but there are always gotchas in low-tax regimes: in HK, massive property price;, in Ireland road tax is twice what it is in the UK at least, and you pay E80 for a GP appointment. Whereas of course we also have one of the lowest state pensions which is right back to where we started.

 

[ecoleman]

Are they really forcing it onto all of us? As far as I was aware the policy is just to not permit the sale of NEW ICE cars after 2030 or 2035 or sometime (most likely later than sooner), so unless someone wishes to buy a new passenger car after that date, it won't change anything. In a way it is helpful because it will improve demand for used ICE cars and thus their resale price, whilst vans and trucks (I think) will be unaffected.

What would you call it?
So because an EV doesn't suit my needs I'm no longer allowed to own a new car from 2030?

Yes it will improve demand for used ICE cars which in turn will increase their prices. How is that helpful to people that can't afford a new car or youngsters trying to get their foot on this hideous ride.

As to our tax being used to fund rich people's car choices, isn't that another example of the capitalist system - robbing the poor(er) to feed the rich(er) whilst making it look like the rich pay more tax than the poor? In any case, I think it depends whether you feel you are paying more tax than you should. IMHO we generally pay much less tax here than most developed countries (at least I think we do, with notable exceptions like Hong Kong and Ireland) but there are always gotchas in low-tax regimes: in HK, massive property price;, in Ireland road tax is twice what it is in the UK at least, and you pay E80 for a GP appointment. Whereas of course we also have one of the lowest state pensions which is right back to where we started.

That doesn't make it right.

I'd gladly pay £80 for a doctors appointment if it meant you could actually see one. Perhaps less taxes going to fund EV's (bribe people into buying them) and more to fund GP's and pay decent pensions hey?

16 people lost their winter fuel allowance but at least somebody in Islington got $5k knocked of the price of their new EV.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

IMHO we generally pay much less tax here than most developed countries (at least I think we do, with notable exceptions like Hong Kong and Ireland)

You seem to be quite right about that, as this BBC report shows...

Which country has the highest tax rate?

In which countries do high earners pay the most tax? And where do average earners pay the most?

www.bbc.co.uk

I think that's one reason why our society has so many problems. Low tax means someone has to suffer and unsurprisingly, that's never the well off.

 

[JonathanRyan]

I'd gladly pay £80 for a doctors appointment if it meant you could actually see one. Perhaps less taxes going to fund EV's (bribe people into buying them) and more to fund GP's and pay decent pensions hey?

It's hard to tell if you're looking for a solution or just want to rant, but on the offchance, Google says there are any number of Private Doctors who will do a consultation for £59. Bupa has a subscription scheme for £16.66 a month or you can pay as you go for £59. Many other providers are available.

My own experience of Bupa private appointments is that you could probably see somebody today if you actually want to.

 

[ecoleman]

It's hard to tell if you're looking for a solution or just want to rant, but on the offchance, Google says there are any number of Private Doctors who will do a consultation for £59. Bupa has a subscription scheme for £16.66 a month or you can pay as you go for £59. Many other providers are available.

My own experience of Bupa private appointments is that you could probably see somebody today if you actually want to.

I know. Thank you.

I've said it before. Give me a tax break and I'll be happy to go private.

 

[cambsno]

What would you call it?
So because an EV doesn't suit my needs I'm no longer allowed to own a new car from 2030?

Yes it will improve demand for used ICE cars which in turn will increase their prices. How is that helpful to people that can't afford a new car or youngsters trying to get their foot on this hideous ride.





That doesn't make it right.

I'd gladly pay £80 for a doctors appointment if it meant you could actually see one. Perhaps less taxes going to fund EV's (bribe people into buying them) and more to fund GP's and pay decent pensions hey?

16 people lost their winter fuel allowance but at least somebody in Islington got $5k knocked of the price of their new EV.

Something has to give - we will run out of fossil fuels between 2050 and 2060 by all accounts, maybe as it becomes more scarce it will become more expensive too?

We could wait until the last minute or transition more gradually. Not actually sure what will happen to things like aircraft (as well as classic cars) as planes go on for years!

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Give me a tax break and I'll be happy to go private.

I think that it's the option of private healthcare that has failed the NHS.

In 1948, the purpose of the NHS was made quite clear...

It will provide you with all medical, dental and nursing care. Everyone — rich or poor, man, woman or child — can use it or any part of it. There are no charges, except for a few special items. There are no insurance qualifications. But it is not a “charity”. You are all paying for it, mainly as tax payers, and it will relieve your money worries in time of illness.[2]
— Central Office of Information, for the Ministry of Health

The central plank of the NHS was broken as early as 1943, when the BMA reneged on their original support for the system, a break re-stated in 1948. This created a system under which all medical staff were employed by the new NHS except general practioners and consultants.

This hybrid system was then extended following the 1979 election which brought the Conservatives into power, with a determination to splinter the system yet more. The introduction of trusts was considered a disaster waiting to happen, by many of the NHS staff (I worked at both the DoH and various of the new trusts at the time) and the fears have since been proven all too accurate.

 

[lindsay]

Indeed as @cambsno says, ICE cannot continue indefinitely as-is, so ecoleman and others who feel likewise are inevitably going to be disappointed, unless the advent of synthetic fuels to which ICE engines can be adapted is an acceptable compromise. Personally I think that is the preferable path forward (synthetic fuels for ICE vehicles) alongside a short term peak of EV use then possible tailing off of their popularity.
Aircraft - well, piston powered airliners - the classic props - went out of use except for a handful of cases, due to cheaper kerosene fuel and the performance of jets which can fly higher, faster, further on it. Rather similar to ICE vehicles petrol vs diesel originally. It's hard to see electric power working for air travel except at best short haul, thanks to the weight of batteries needed reducing payload. I do think electric motors on airships with solar panels on top are the way forward for air freight, but for self-loading freight, synthetic diesel/kerosene will be needed to fuel airliners.

 

[ecoleman]

I think that it's the option of private healthcare that has failed the NHS.

Quite frankly, I don't care what has caused the NHS to fail. I just want a system that works and if the NHS doesn't work then I want the option to no longer pay for it and go elsewhere.

I doubt very much that private healthcare alone is the cause of the NHS failing but if it does play some part in it then the government should prevent doctors from practicing privately for x number of years until their debt is paid back. It seems we pay £4bn a year to train doctors and nurses. They should serve their time of pay for their own medial training.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Quite frankly, I don't care what has caused the NHS to fail. I just want a system that works and if the NHS doesn't work then I want the option to no longer pay for it and go elsewhere.

Surely a major part of fixing something, is understanding why it failed in the first place?

 

[ecoleman]

Surely a major part of fixing something, is understanding why it failed in the first place?

Sure, that's why we pay NHS managers and ministers what we do. It's their job, not mine.

I just want the service I pay for whether that be a private service or a public one.

 

[JonathanRyan]

I'd gladly pay £80 for a doctors appointment if it meant you could actually see one. Perhaps less taxes going to fund EV's (bribe people into buying them) and more to fund GP's and pay decent pensions hey?

I've said it before. Give me a tax break and I'll be happy to go private.

Quite frankly, I don't care what has caused the NHS to fail. I just want a system that works and if the NHS doesn't work then I want the option to no longer pay for it and go elsewhere.

Well that escalated fast. From £80 (way more than you can buy it for) to "a tax break" (unclear what this means) to "no longer pay for the NHS".

Serious question: if people who could afford to pay for their own treatment didn't have to pay for the NHS then who would? Surely you're not asking people who can't afford it to pay for it?

Either way, sounds like you're sorted for medical attention if you need it. Maybe it's time to get back to hating EVs.

 

[Mr Bump]

Indeed as @cambsno says, ICE cannot continue indefinitely as-is, so ecoleman and others who feel likewise are inevitably going to be disappointed, unless the advent of synthetic fuels to which ICE engines can be adapted is an acceptable compromise. Personally I think that is the preferable path forward (synthetic fuels for ICE vehicles) alongside a short term peak of EV use then possible tailing off of their popularity.
Aircraft - well, piston powered airliners - the classic props - went out of use except for a handful of cases, due to cheaper kerosene fuel and the performance of jets which can fly higher, faster, further on it. Rather similar to ICE vehicles petrol vs diesel originally. It's hard to see electric power working for air travel except at best short haul, thanks to the weight of batteries needed reducing payload. I do think electric motors on airships with solar panels on top are the way forward for air freight, but for self-loading freight, synthetic diesel/kerosene will be needed to fuel airliners.

sorry but i think you are dead wrong about most of what you have said, EV will just get better and better and cheaper and most importantly SMARTER.
battery range is already close to 400 miles in 3/4 years that will be nearer 500 miles so the range anxiety and public charger problem will almost vanish

linked to the growing increase in cheap renewable energy wind and solar,
The UK is on taget by 2030 to have 50GW/H of wind energy available alone. Electricity will become cheaper than water over the next decade.

people want cars to just be like phones you go home plug them in and they are full every morning.
charging at home will become so cheap it will literally be a no brainer and this is what young busy people and families want not old technology.



not sure about aircraft that's an odd one but for roads and general transport in 10 years time it will be all super smart EV.

 

[lindsay]

I'd love to agree with you Paul but I'm not convinced yet of the economics for the industry, especially vans and lorries. But I'd like to be. My main point is just that I keep hearing about progress in synthetic fuels which means competition for market share will remain the case.

I've been watching the similar climate issues in the maritime transport industry where alternatives to heavy oil are being trialled quite successfully, though not yet as ultimately clean as would be liked.

 

[ecoleman]

Well that escalated fast. From £80 (way more than you can buy it for) to "a tax break" (unclear what this means) to "no longer pay for the NHS".

Serious question: if people who could afford to pay for their own treatment didn't have to pay for the NHS then who would? Surely you're not asking people who can't afford it to pay for it?

Either way, sounds like you're sorted for medical attention if you need it. Maybe it's time to get back to hating EVs.

You brought it up. That's my opinion and I really don't give a damn if you agree with it or not.

For all I care they can scrap the NHS. It's not fir for purpose anyway.