ST-E2 multi zone help please

Marcus Geezer

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Have the ST-E2 and quite happy using the zone A and B to change the light balance left to right, and have even used it to balance a head/shoulders portrait shot to use B blow out the background whilst using A to light the subject through a softbox.

I'm getting to the point now though whereas I'm lookin to start using three 'zones', whereas for white backgrounds I'll be blowing out the background and having main and fill in, and for black backgrounds will have a rim light for hair plus main and fill in. (or something like that).

I think that using the E-TTL you can have Zone 'A' and 'B' and have a manual 'C'. Is this right?

Looking for someone to help me who has had experience in using the ST-E2 in this manner?

Thanks. Marcus.
 
ST-E2 doesn't support Group C, you need a 580 on the camera to achieve that.

EDIT: Or a 7D ;)
 
Thanks Jon.

So it looks like I'll be using the ST-E2 just to fire the speedlites, whilst the speedlites themselves will be set on manual and I'lll just need to set the power levels / aperture the old fashioned way?

On the basis that this is possible it will be just like using radio triggers?
 
Thanks Jon.

So it looks like I'll be using the ST-E2 just to fire the speedlites, whilst the speedlites themselves will be set on manual and I'lll just need to set the power levels / aperture the old fashioned way?

On the basis that this is possible it will be just like using radio triggers?

You could do it like that, which would be just like using a radio trigger.

But I think you can have more than one gun in any E-TTL group, any number you like potentially, and you can set another gun/s in manual and it will still fire in sync.
 
Marcus,

You can use the ST-E2 to operate a flash Group C, but it is limited in its operation. As I recall:

The ST-E2 in ratio mode can trigger flash groups A and B only, and will not trigger flash group C.

However, when the ST-E2 is "not in ratio mode", it will trigger all three flash groups (A, B and C), but the power output of flashes in group C cannot be configured via the ST-E2 using the flash exposure compensation function of the camera..... but it will adjust Groups A & B.

So effectively if you want to control all 3 groups, you need to set the power ratio on the flashes manually. I recall doing this once or twice.

To test it out, if you press the pilot button it will cause flashes in group A to fire at 1/64 power, followed by flashes in group B approx 1/2 second later, and then followed by flashes in group C (ST-E2 will only trigger group C if it is not in ratio mode).

Hope that helps.

Roy
 
Thanks everyone for your input.

So quick recap.

1) E-TTL Ratio mode = Groups A and B only.
2) E-TTL 1:1 (Non ratio mode) = Groups A and B and C all at 'one level of power' to give good exposure. Have option to adjust flash output of A and B on camera, but not as individual groups.
3) Non E-TTL = Can fire groups A and B and C but all on manual, and can have any number of speedlites.

I think to set up the shot properly with 3 groups or more it's manual mode as you say.

So on to the practical use regarding a high key type shot using a white background.

If I decided to use two groups for a white background shot, group A for front speedlite in softbox and group B to blow out the background using two speedlites, is it as easy as setting the ratio to give the 1-2 stops difference? (Possibly trial and error would dictate this).


Does anyone use the ST-E2 with E-TTL to produce high key shots?

And

Does anyone use the ST-E2 with E-TTL to produce shots on a black background with main, fill-in, and rim lighting for the hair?
 
I don't have an ST-E2 so cannot confirm for sure. However, I don't use E-TTL in the way you're suggesting. I use it when speed is essential and there's no time for messing about, such as a social situation when I can just plant a couple of Speedlites around the room bouncing off the ceiling for fill-in and just hit the button knowing I'll be there or thereabouts with the first shot. It's fantastic for that.

The only other time I'd use E-TTL would be in a trickly situation when I cannot get easy access to control the remote guns, because they're up a tree or inside a car or something. Another situation where E-TTL makes very difficult things easy.

For the studio situation you're describing with plenty of easy set up time, not only is manual control easy but I would say preferable in that once it's set, the exposure is locked. Furthermore, you also know what power each gun is firing at and in that situation I would use that knowledge to moderate the power output down to a level where I was getting fast recycle times. Shooting portraits with a five second recyle time is completely hopeless and even if one of your guns is firing at that slow rate and the others are much quicker, you're stuck with the longer time. You'll find yourself shooting before they're ready and one or more won't fire or will go off at less than full charge - flippin useless.

If you're concerned about exposure metering using manual, well yes that's a problem and a flash meter makes life much easier. However, you can do it without by reading the histogram and blinkies. I would do it like this:

Set up the background lights and make sure the light is as even as possible. If you have two identical guns set at an identical distance and angle, you can't go wrong. Adjust the power/ISO/aperture so that a shot of just the background alone gets the blinkies flashing (over exposure warning), but only just.

Now switch the background lights off and without changing the camera settings adjust the power of the front light until you get perfect exposure. Your ratios should now be set. Now switch everything on and see what it looks like. You'll probably get over exposure in a normal room as the background will have some influence on the overall scene, so moderate that with f/number or ISO.

That should get you pretty close to where you need to be. Depending on how it looks on the LCD/histogram/blinkies, play with the settings slightly to get it just right. Guard against giving the background too much exposure as it's easy to do and might well look good at first glance, but when you get to check the finished result the outline of the subject, especially hair, will be bleached and eaten away. If you have a flash meter, aim for half a stop over-exposure on the background, one stop max.

Of course, you can do the exposure thing by working the other way around and set the front light first. Doesn't really matter, depends on the settings you want to use and where you've got most latitude for adjustment. It only takes a few minutes to do this when you're familar with the routine, but once you have a basic set up and have noted all the distances, angles and power outputs, you can replicate it any time. Bear in mind that flash is very sensitive to distance and in a studio situation just a few inches makes a difference, and a foot out can put you in trouble.

HTH :)
 
I don't have an ST-E2 so cannot confirm for sure. However, I don't use E-TTL in the way you're suggesting. I use it when speed is essential and there's no time for messing about, such as a social situation when I can just plant a couple of Speedlites around the room bouncing off the ceiling for fill-in and just hit the button knowing I'll be there or thereabouts with the first shot. It's fantastic for that.

The only other time I'd use E-TTL would be in a trickly situation when I cannot get easy access to control the remote guns, because they're up a tree or inside a car or something. Another situation where E-TTL makes very difficult things easy.

For the studio situation you're describing with plenty of easy set up time, not only is manual control easy but I would say preferable in that once it's set, the exposure is locked. Furthermore, you also know what power each gun is firing at and in that situation I would use that knowledge to moderate the power output down to a level where I was getting fast recycle times. Shooting portraits with a five second recyle time is completely hopeless and even if one of your guns is firing at that slow rate and the others are much quicker, you're stuck with the longer time. You'll find yourself shooting before they're ready and one or more won't fire or will go off at less than full charge - flippin useless.

If you're concerned about exposure metering using manual, well yes that's a problem and a flash meter makes life much easier. However, you can do it without by reading the histogram and blinkies. I would do it like this:

Set up the background lights and make sure the light is as even as possible. If you have two identical guns set at an identical distance and angle, you can't go wrong. Adjust the power/ISO/aperture so that a shot of just the background alone gets the blinkies flashing (over exposure warning), but only just.

Now switch the background lights off and without changing the camera settings adjust the power of the front light until you get perfect exposure. Your ratios should now be set. Now switch everything on and see what it looks like. You'll probably get over exposure in a normal room as the background will have some influence on the overall scene, so moderate that with f/number or ISO.

That should get you pretty close to where you need to be. Depending on how it looks on the LCD/histogram/blinkies, play with the settings slightly to get it just right. Guard against giving the background too much exposure as it's easy to do and might well look good at first glance, but when you get to check the finished result the outline of the subject, especially hair, will be bleached and eaten away. If you have a flash meter, aim for half a stop over-exposure on the background, one stop max.

Of course, you can do the exposure thing by working the other way around and set the front light first. Doesn't really matter, depends on the settings you want to use and where you've got most latitude for adjustment. It only takes a few minutes to do this when you're familar with the routine, but once you have a basic set up and have noted all the distances, angles and power outputs, you can replicate it any time. Bear in mind that flash is very sensitive to distance and in a studio situation just a few inches makes a difference, and a foot out can put you in trouble.

HTH :)

Hoppy. Your a legend. Thanks for taking the time to post this. I'm gonna print this out and keep in my bag until it becomes 2nd nature.

I was a bit worried that despite the ability of the ST-E2 to trigger my two (soon to be three) speedlites that I would have to invest in radio triggers for ful manual. Where bright bright sunlight doesnt kill the optical remote triggering it sounds like I'm fine with my kit and just need to learn technique.

Thank you again.
 
Hoppy. Your a legend. Thanks for taking the time to post this. I'm gonna print this out and keep in my bag until it becomes 2nd nature.

I was a bit worried that despite the ability of the ST-E2 to trigger my two (soon to be three) speedlites that I would have to invest in radio triggers for ful manual. Where bright bright sunlight doesnt kill the optical remote triggering it sounds like I'm fine with my kit and just need to learn technique.

Thank you again.

You're welcome bud :)
 
ST-E2 doesn't support Group C, you need a 580 on the camera to achieve that.

EDIT: Or a 7D ;)

I just wanted to confirm that I have not yet been able to get my ST-E2 to fire group C. It seems to only want to fire A&B. I have yet to play some more so I'll keep you posted but it looks like Mr Tucker was on the money with this one.

No biggy though as if I rreally needed to have a group C then it's on manual so whether they are grouped or not it doesnt matter.
 
I just tried my setup and I can fire Group C with the ST-E2.

BUT you do have to press the Ratio button to turn it off as I mentioned earlier, if the ratio button is illuminated even though the ratio A/B is central it will not fire Group C.

Regards
 
I just tried my setup and I can fire Group C with the ST-E2.

BUT you do have to press the Ratio button to turn it off as I mentioned earlier, if the ratio button is illuminated even though the ratio A/B is central it will not fire Group C.

Regards

You did say and I will do that! Thanks for the reminder!
 
I only ever fire three speedlites on manual with my ST-E2 mainly because I prefer to have control over everything in a portrait shoot anyway. It doesn't even matter if you don't use E-TTL because you're making the decisions with regard to exposure anyway.

As a general rule, I tend to start in manual at ISO100, 1/125 sec and f4 with the three strobes set to 1/2, 1/4 and 1/8 to get an idea of what's happening around me.

Having said that, I've just started using the wireless commander on the 7D which, as mentioned before, gives complete control over three groups.

Si

EDIT: Just had a thought about a quick tip... If you're using your ST-E2 and you find it's not firing your strobes, get hold of an off-camera E-TTL cable and stick the ST-E2 on the end of it... It'll give you more opportunity to make sure the receivers on the flashguns are picking up the firing signal!
 
I just tried my setup and I can fire Group C with the ST-E2.

BUT you do have to press the Ratio button to turn it off as I mentioned earlier, if the ratio button is illuminated even though the ratio A/B is central it will not fire Group C.

Regards

When you use it this way the groups are effectively being ignored so you're still not actually firing group c, you're just sending out a 'fire' command to all flashes in range, regardless of what group they are assigned to.
 
I only ever fire three speedlites on manual with my ST-E2 mainly because I prefer to have control over everything in a portrait shoot anyway. It doesn't even matter if you don't use E-TTL because you're making the decisions with regard to exposure anyway.

As a general rule, I tend to start in manual at ISO100, 1/125 sec and f4 with the three strobes set to 1/2, 1/4 and 1/8 to get an idea of what's happening around me.

Having said that, I've just started using the wireless commander on the 7D which, as mentioned before, gives complete control over three groups.

Si

EDIT: Just had a thought about a quick tip... If you're using your ST-E2 and you find it's not firing your strobes, get hold of an off-camera E-TTL cable and stick the ST-E2 on the end of it... It'll give you more opportunity to make sure the receivers on the flashguns are picking up the firing signal!

That's a very good tip! :thumbs: Would obviously work just as well with a 580EX flash on the end too.

FITP sells 10m cables for about 30 quid I think. With one of those I reckon you could solve just about any remote E-TTL problem, even in bright sun.

I'm thinking that the range problem is always trigger-to-flash distance, rather than flash-to-subject. If you stick the Master unit on the end of a long cord then you can hardly fail but be within easy range of the flashes.

Who needs an E-TTL Pocket Wizard now? :D
 
When you use it this way the groups are effectively being ignored so you're still not actually firing group c, you're just sending out a 'fire' command to all flashes in range, regardless of what group they are assigned to.

Jon, I guess you are right the groups are being ignored as everything is now 'effectively' manual with the 3 groups, but I just tested out using the "pilot" button on the ST-E2 and you could see the delay occurring and each flashgun fired in sequence A - B - C so the ST-E2 is sending out a separate test signal to each group.

Regards
Roy
 
Jon, I guess you are right the groups are being ignored as everything is now 'effectively' manual with the 3 groups, but I just tested out using the "pilot" button on the ST-E2 and you could see the delay occurring and each flashgun fired in sequence A - B - C so the ST-E2 is sending out a separate test signal to each group.

Regards
Roy

That's interesting, Roy. Doesn't seem like there is any point in it sending out codes specifically for group c if it's not going to let you set ratios between it and the other groups anyway. :shrug:
 
Jon, I agree, its a bit of a conundrum, perhaps its included as at some point they were going to upgrade the system to allow control of 3 groups........... or it may have been cheaper to engineer it to always send out a signal to the separate groups regardless? But then switching on the ratio button switches off sending a signal to the C group.

Roy
 
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