Sports events, charge attendance fee or not??

[hewhoknows]

Ok so ive been asked to become the official photographer for a sporting association, they hold several large competitions throughout the year with thousands of competitors and spectators attending.

Ive done a number of smaller scale events in the past and have worked on a basis of not charging for attending the events and rely on image sales afterwards. However, with this being a much larger event, and the definite probability that the event organizers will want to use images for national magazines and local newspapers im a bit unsure how to tackle it.

They have asked me to attend for free and want a few images per comp for use in local press, magazines and thei websites. They have agreed to use only me for all their events, let me advertise on their website and at each event and also sell as much as I want to any spectator and competitor.

With this being my first decent commission I was wondering if anyone else would tackle this differently. Would you charge an attendance fee or work as ive have laid out??

Thanks in advance folks

 

[asphotographymk]

It really depends on what you think you can make from the event. What is the chance of making a good profit from sales? If i was going to make big sales i would let them use a few images in exchange for exclusivity if not i would shoot the event for free and charge them for the license should they want to use any.

 

[Jerm]

It's almost impossible to advise you on this without knowing all the details.

We usually attend FOC at sports events, and often pay a commission for the privilege. However, to do that need to be fairly that we can cover our costs and make a decent profit.

For us, that means printing at the event. The info that you've given is - understandably - sketchy. Every job has to be looked at and assessed individually.

I don't think that you can ask for general advise on something like this

 

[snapzz]

I have to echo Jeremy's answer. Without more info its impossible to comment.
Well done for getting the job though

 

[hewhoknows]

Fir comment guys and thanks for taking the time to reply. Ill give you a bit more info:

The deal is for a growing martial arts organization based in the Midlands, they hold many national competitions through the UK and are affiliated to a certain world organisation. Ive been trying to negotiate a deal like this with a few different organisations because I have a huge interest in martial arts as Ive recently been forced to quit just before getting my black belt due to injury, so its a sport close to me heart.

They have agreed for me to be the sole photographer covering all their events nationwide and are happy for me to advertise on their website and at competitions. Ill be covering all the fights and medal ceremonies and any per-competition stuff they need. Ive also been asked to give a set amount of images to the organization for media usage for which ill get a credit whether that be local press, web or national magazines etc.

I am then allowed to sell my prints from my website to anyone wishing to purchase them, this is where ill make my money. I dont yet have the facility to produce onsite prints though, this may come later if I ever get to the stage of getting more and more work.

 

[asphotographymk]

Fir comment guys and thanks for taking the time to reply. Ill give you a bit more info:

The deal is for a growing martial arts organization based in the Midlands, they hold many national competitions through the UK and are affiliated to a certain world organisation. Ive been trying to negotiate a deal like this with a few different organisations because I have a huge interest in martial arts as Ive recently been forced to quit just before getting my black belt due to injury, so its a sport close to me heart.

They have agreed for me to be the sole photographer covering all their events nationwide and are happy for me to advertise on their website and at competitions. Ill be covering all the fights and medal ceremonies and any per-competition stuff they need. Ive also been asked to give a set amount of images to the organization for media usage for which ill get a credit whether that be local press, web or national magazines etc.

I am then allowed to sell my prints from my website to anyone wishing to purchase them, this is where ill make my money. I dont yet have the facility to produce onsite prints though, this may come later if I ever get to the stage of getting more and more work.

I think for this to work you really need to offer onsite printing. No matter how much you water mark the images they will just get copied and put on facebook. Yes you may make some online sales but you are missing out on the money if your only doing online sales. Also being that i am sure they allow people watching to take there photos how can you be sure you are the only person selling images ?

 

[hewhoknows]

I think for this to work you really need to offer onsite printing. No matter how much you water mark the images they will just get copied and put on facebook. Yes you may make some online sales but you are missing out on the money if your only doing online sales.

I do agree with you, but setting up something like this would take a heft investment and one there is no way I can afford right now. Im hoping that with a super fast turn around time that sales will still be made enough to fund travel and my attendance with a bit of profit thrown in. As I said in my post above, i would love to be able to have a set up where I can process and print onsite but money just inst available for that right now.

My other issue with printing onsite is that, from my experience, many of the images take, printed and sold at martial arts events are pretty poor quality from a print poiont of view and the actual image. Its like the togger doesn't really know the sport therefore doesn't know how to predict a fight to get the right action shots. No effort put into processing and the printing is usually pretty poor too. Ive seen national event companies produce shocking images onsite substituting image quality for turnaround time and to be honest I wouldn't want to produce sub-standard work like that. Don't get me wrong, im sure a large proportion of event photographers who print onsite produce very good stuff, I just havent seen any proof of this at martial arts events myself and ive been to loads of fight comps in the past. I would more rather produce excellent quality prints online after the event than rubbish onsite prints with a quick turn around.

Also being that i am sure they allow people watching to take there photos how can you be sure you are the only person selling images ?

Surly this is the issue with any sports event whether DE Photo are there or no one. Anyone can bring along a camera and shoot from the stands and im sure there will be the odd person there doing just that. The difference being is that im the 'official' togger and as sucvh will be advertised as the official. Hopefully the difference will also be the quality of the end product and the photographer actually understanding the sport and can capture the action correctly will produce better shots. Ill be around the mats and not shooting from the stands so will always get the best vantage pioints to produce shots on one else will be able to.

I suppose its like going to a football match, yes you can shoot from the stands but im sure the pitch side pro's will get much better shots which people will buy??

 

[Jerm]

It's very sound advice regarding the printing on-site.

I do think that you're falling into the same trap as many others here.

The quality of the image doesn't need to be any different if sold at the event.

If you know what you're doing then you'll get the shots. Those shots can be tidied up to a good standard at the print station.

Agreed, they may not be edited to the same level as you'd do at home, but you need to weigh up a number of points here.

1. Are you really intending to spend hours editing every photo when most of those photos will never be seen ? Events have been the mainstay of my business for 5 years and I can tell you that you will lose around 80% of your potential sales once they've walked out the door. So.. You'll be spending time editing photos that very few people will ever see.

2. These sorts of events are a numbers game. How many competitors will there be at each competition, and what age group will they be ?

My point here is what size is your market at each event ? How will you drive those people to a website to view and buy to make it worth your while?

I think you need to be very careful that you don't just end up shooting images free for the client.

My advice is to either invest in a printing infrastructure ( which you've already explained is unlikely) or team up with an existing event photographer, do the job together and see what sort of return you can expect.

That way it may tip you into investing, or indeed tell you that it won't be a profitable job.

FWIW, I've rarely found martial arts events worthwhile covering, even with on-site printing.

I'm sure others will have different tales and may have found different angles to make them pay

 

[snapzz]

There are a number of photographers around the UK that specialise in MMA. I have covered quite a few and I can assure you its a very hard learning curve. Print sales are relatively poor although at some events essential.

If dealing with kids events it may be important to look at "add on's" to boost sales and alternative items to prints. It is also essential to try and maximise your sales on the day so you should be prepared. Make sure you have the right equipment for some of these cave like venues (f2.8 lens), some form of viewing stations to view on the day, gallery software for internet sales, additional photographers if more than one mat/rink and sales staff.And just as important ensure you get your pricing structre correct.

 

[hewhoknows]

It's very sound advice regarding the printing on-site.

I do think that you're falling into the same trap as many others here.

The quality of the image doesn't need to be any different if sold at the event.

If you know what you're doing then you'll get the shots. Those shots can be tidied up to a good standard at the print station.

I agree with what your saying and would love to say that I could handle all of that and have an endless pot of money to dip into the buy such things. However, currently there me, myself and I running the show so I will be out on the mats taking the pictures throughout the day so even if I did have the equipment to process and print ontsite I have no one to do it for me.

Plus, I dont have the available cash to spend on such equipment, would love to have it but I just dont.

I really dont want to fall into the 'trap' but the way I look at it is ive got to start off somewhere. This organisation im working for isnt huge, like WAKO for example, but large enough that the potential to make money is there. I know ill loose potential sales as people walk out of the door but im hoping that I will also make sales from networking on the day, my adverts being everywhere and my advert on the organisations home page.


Agreed, they may not be edited to the same level as you'd do at home, but you need to weigh up a number of points here.

{QUOTE} 1. Are you really intending to spend hours editing every photo when most of those photos will never be seen ? Events have been the mainstay of my business for 5 years and I can tell you that you will lose around 80% of your potential sales once they've walked out the door. So.. You'll be spending time editing photos that very few people will ever see.

Not at all, for past events ive uploaded unprocessed images to a gallery straight from camera and I only process photos that are purchased.

2. These sorts of events are a numbers game. How many competitors will there be at each competition, and what age group will they be ?

Unknown as people can pre-register but also register on the day. On average between 1500-2000 people for a samll event and upto 5000 for a medium event. This includes competitors and spectators

I think you need to be very careful that you don't just end up shooting images free for the client.

Completely agree, and if this works out to be the way it ends up then I wont carry it on. But I have to give it a shot, I see this opportunity as one of my first steps towards being a sports photographer so I have to take it.

My advice is to either invest in a printing infrastructure ( which you've already explained is unlikely) or team up with an existing event photographer, do the job together and see what sort of return you can expect.

That way it may tip you into investing, or indeed tell you that it won't be a profitable job.

FWIW, I've rarely found martial arts events worthwhile covering, even with on-site printing.

I'm sure others will have different tales and may have found different angles to make them pay

Again, I agree, but I need to make some money before I spend it. I see these small(ish) events as a way that I can get my name around and make some money to hopefully invest in event equipment. Also, I am using this to see if I actually enjoy it too, id hate to spend 000's on site processing and printing equipment only to realise after 5 or 6 events that I dont enjoy it and want to take my photography in a different direction!

 

[Tugster]

Matt,

Why not hire a dye sub printer and advertise for an assistant to print for you.

At least this way you will get a feel for the take up ...Its not the best way to go about it but it will certainly give you some experience and an insight into onsite printing.

 

[hewhoknows]

There are a number of photographers around the UK that specialise in MMA. I have covered quite a few and I can assure you its a very hard learning curve. Print sales are relatively poor although at some events essential.

If dealing with kids events it may be important to look at "add on's" to boost sales and alternative items to prints. It is also essential to try and maximise your sales on the day so you should be prepared. Make sure you have the right equipment for some of these cave like venues (f2.8 lens), some form of viewing stations to view on the day, gallery software for internet sales, additional photographers if more than one mat/rink and sales staff.And just as important ensure you get your pricing structre correct.

Sound advice, and yeah I know hwat you mean about poor lighting conditions as some venues. I shoot alot of ice hockey and martial arts so am very used to working under poor lighting conditions. Thats where my Nikon 70-200 f2.8 comes into its own, lovely images under poor light, plus my D7000 is very good at high ISO. I also have a number of other lenses which stop down to f2.8 and are perfect for low light photography.