Speedlight use guidance please

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wooster

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Hi

Pretty much a newbie here but a long time photographer.

Although I've used studio lighting quite a bit and am fairly comfortable with that, and have also done a lot of landscape stuff, I want to move out of the studio more and into the big bad world of outside portraiture. The sort of thing wedding togs take in their stride but which I have never really tried.

I will be using a couple of 580 EX and one 430 EX II. I'd like to to use a wireless system and am torn between the Radio Poppers ( expensive but versatile ) or adding some Elinchrom receivers for the flashes and using these with my existing skyport transmitter. ( cheaper but offers only manual )

Using studio lighting I always use a flash meter ( not a fan of chimping ) and measure fairly accurately but I now wonder what the best way to use flash outdoors would be. In short will ETTL be useful or not. My guess is probably manual control would be the way to go especially using two or more speedlights and that therefore the cheaper elinchrom option would be best but I'd love some views and advice from others. :)
 
If the subject is static, or relatively so in relation to the lights, then there's no benefit in E-TTL. Most people prefer manual for this anyway.

E-TTL is brilliant if the subject is moving around and the distance to the flash is constantly changing. That's very hard in manual as you have to fiddle with the power all the time.

PW Mini/Flex gives you the best of both worlds, plus a few tricks that Radio Poppers do not. Cheaper too, as you don't need a donor unit.
 
Hi Hoppy and thanks for the response. I thought that manual would be more sensible and, yes, most pictures would be static.

It might be nice to have the option though.

Re the PW Min/Flex kit I was put off this a bit because of the interference issue with the 580 EX lights and the "sock" thing they used to minimise it seemed a bit of a kludgy solution. Also there were some suggestions that they weren't as good outside as the RPs. Do you know if these interference issues have been resolved without recourse to the "sock" and if the coverage is as good as RP outside?

Should have said I have an STE2 which I could stick a RP on so wouldn't tie up one of the 580s

Having said all that, either would be at least twice the price of the Elinchrom set up so ETTL would come at a price. Hmm not sure its worth that amount of cash. Decisions eh? :thinking: :)
 
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I believe you can use the RPs to control the manual output remotely too though. That saves running between flashes to adjust the power. This is what I miss with my skyport set up.
 
That is true too. I would love the RPs but they are very expensive. I'm not sure how much they total including postage and any taxes payable but I bet they're not much less than 200 quid per unit
 
wooster said:
Hi Hoppy and thanks for the response. I thought that manual would be more sensible and, yes, most pictures would be static.

It might be nice to have the option though.

Re the PW Min/Flex kit I was put off this a bit because of the interference issue with the 580 EX lights and the "sock" thing they used to minimise it seemed a bit of a kludgy solution. Also there were some suggestions that they weren't as good outside as the RPs. Do you know if these interference issues have been resolved without recourse to the "sock" and if the coverage is as good as RP outside?

Should have said I have an STE2 which I could stick a RP on so wouldn't tie up one of the 580s

Having said all that, either would be at least twice the price of the Elinchrom set up so ETTL would come at a price. Hmm not sure its worth that amount of cash. Decisions eh? :thinking: :)
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Kludgy. Good word. You're obviously aware of the RF issues, which RPs don't suffer because of the much higher frequency. If you're not bothered by the PW's extra features like HyperSync etc, then RPs are the easy way.

But if the worst comes to the worst with PW and your 580EX guns, you can get them internally modded for $75 a pop (from Michael Bass Designs in the US). However, the EC versions are supposed to be much less affected than US frequency ones, though experiences vary.
 
I've just priced the RPs and they are very expensive indeed. I also just realised that they will only work with the STE2 commander in ETTL mode which I hadn't considered. Doh!

I'm now veering towards the PW solution. Shame there doesn't seem to be a modifier working here in the UK.

I read on Rob Galbraith that the issue is less here in Europe and he was suggesting an unmodified or "socked" 580EXII would make 170ft in optimum conditions cf 100 ft in the US.

Does anyone own this system or able to verify the kind of reliability they are getting in real world situations?
 
wooster said:
I've just priced the RPs and they are very expensive indeed. I also just realised that they will only work with the STE2 commander in ETTL mode which I hadn't considered. Doh!

I'm now veering towards the PW solution. Shame there doesn't seem to be a modifier working here in the UK.

I read on Rob Galbraith that the issue is less here in Europe and he was suggesting an unmodified or "socked" 580EXII would make 170ft in optimum conditions cf 100 ft in the US.

Does anyone own this system or able to verify the kind of reliability they are getting in real world situations?
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There are a few threads on this if you search.
 
Hi,

I've been using the WP system with 2 580ex II's for a couple of months now. They are fantastic. Never had a misfire that I know of. Make sure you get the AC3 to control remotes from the camera. Longest range I have used is probably 50 metres.
 
Thanks. I keep reading about the PW frying the flashes which is undoubtedly unusual but seems to have happened on more than a few isolated occasions. Bit worrying
 
I've never heard of pws frying speedlights, I've heard of quantum battery packs melting the flash tubes though :D
 
wooster said:
Thanks. I keep reading about the PW frying the flashes which is undoubtedly unusual but seems to have happened on more than a few isolated occasions. Bit worrying
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Have you seen the PW white paper on this? It seems to be a manufacturing tolerance/design flaw with some Canon guns, and can happen with or without a PW.

It's related to HSS use, which drives the gun very hard, and of course the optimised HSS feature of PWs encourages its use, hence highlighting the problem.
 
No I haven't. I will do a trawl and try and find it.

Is it possible to use the PZ without the optimised HSS feature? I'd be happy getting shutter speeds of around 1/500s using the flash as fill in. I'd not need or want it if I was using the flash full on if you know what I mean. (Does it make sense?)

I also thought that there was some other mechanism PW uses to allow the flash to sync at higher speeds other than the optimised HSS

In short if I only used the flash for fill at around 1/500s or thereabouts is it the case that I could do this without using opt HSS? If so surely this would make the frying issue very unlikely to arise?

Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
 
wooster said:
No I haven't. I will do a trawl and try and find it.

Is it possible to use the PZ without the optimised HSS feature? I'd be happy getting shutter speeds of around 1/500s using the flash as fill in. I'd not need or want it if I was using the flash full on if you know what I mean. (Does it make sense?)

I also thought that there was some other mechanism PW uses to allow the flash to sync at higher speeds other than the optimised HSS

In short if I only used the flash for fill at around 1/500s or thereabouts is it the case that I could do this without using opt HSS? If so surely this would make the frying issue very unlikely to arise?

Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
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If 1/500sec will do it for you, then you don't need to touch HSS with a Canon 1D - you can get that with HyperSync. Which is different to 'hypersync' (which is the tail-sync hack) and different again to HSS and optimised HSS (not to mention optimised second curtain sync!).

The best source of info on all this is the PW site and also www.robgalbraith.com where there is a lot of real world testing. I don't find it the easiest site to navigate, but start here http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-10050-10598 and follow the links as the come up.

This is the PW white paper on fried flashes http://lpadesign.com/580EXII.pdf
 
Hoi thanks for the links and information. BTW I have a %Dmk@ not a ID. Will this still be viable?

I will check out the links now thanks
 
wooster said:
Hoi thanks for the links and information. BTW I have a %Dmk@ not a ID. Will this still be viable?

I will check out the links now thanks
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Sorry, I mean 1D-series, eg 1D3 and 1D4 for sure, and I don't see why not 1D2n as well.

I just noticed that Phottix are scheduled to release their (cheaper) E-TTL triggers on Sept 30th - Phottix Odin. Info and links here http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-11665-11919 Enjoy the vid :D

Phottix has a good rep and I think these might be good - half the cost of PWs. They've certainly had plenty of time to get them right, but I would not be surprised if they are either useless or brilliant - uncharted territory this.

They use the higher 2.4 frequency though, which is probably a good start as far as flash RF interference is concerned. Very much proof of the pudding job though, and they don't appear to have the cool HyperSync and other features that make PW that much better.
 
Sorry Hoppy. I meant to say I had a 5Dmk2. I haven't any of the 1 series. My typing is not great either
 
wooster said:
Sorry Hoppy. I meant to say I had a 5Dmk2. I haven't any of the 1 series. My typing is not great either
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In which case, the best you'll get with HyperSync is 1/250sec before needing HSS. 5D2 has a big slow shutter which doesn't benefit as much as smaller, inherantly faster shutters :(
 
Hi Hoppy and thanks for the information. Interesting paper from PW. Seems reasonable to me but still would be a bit worried about using them with my 580s as there is an acknowledged issue there irrespective of the cause.

The Phottix kit looks really tempting. I don't know anything about them and the fact they are in HK with no base showing in the UK is a bit off-putting. Nonetheless if I could get these from Amazon or similar I'd probably give them a go. Amazon sell some photix stuff and are pretty good if you buy a dud! Very interesting to me because they pretty much do what I need ( spooky guy on video mind you :p)
 
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wooster said:
Hi Hoppy and thanks for the information. Interesting paper from PW. Seems reasonable to me but still would be a bit worried about using them with my 580s as there is an acknowledged issue there irrespective of the cause.

The Phottix kit looks really tempting. I don't know anything about them and the fact they are in HK with no base showing in the UK is a bit off-putting. Nonetheless if I could get these from Amazon or similar I'd probably give them a go. Amazon sell some photix stuff and are pretty good if you buy a dud! Very interesting to me because they pretty much do what I need ( spooky guy on video mind you :p)
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The feedback around here is good for Phottix, if that helps. They don't have UK representation I think because Interfit and Calumet sell them as rebranded products under their names. But they don't do the full range.
 
Yes they seem good. The only issues I have is that they are based in HK and shipping takes around 10 days. Just might complicate any support. Also I notice they only adjust manual flash in full stop increments. They also take over Canon's TTL I suppose.

I'm not sure. Doh! Analysis paralysis eh?

Having looked at everything.

1. I'd like the option of using TTL.
2. I'd like the option of using manual
3. I'd like the option of HSS
4. I'd prefer to keep Canon in control as much as possible
5. I'd like to avoid add ons such as the sock PW use
6. I'd need it to be completely guaranteed not to harm my flash

If all else was equal I'd go for the PW but 6 above worries me.

I'm sort of veering to the RPs again. Hmmmm......
 
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