Spare Wheel........or NOT!

[Gremlin]

Physical ability is not what was meant or what the argument was about though. The argument was about having the knowledge on how to do the job and as far as that goes, if you are old enough and able to drive, you will have all the reasoning on how to go about it. Sure there will be those who will jack up first prior to loosening the nuts, but knowledge wise it isn't hard to fathom out.

ianp5a even made a comment about people looking at both ends of a wheel wrench as if it was a mystical object with no clues which end to use.

Fairly obvious, I'm sure you will agree.

I thought you said in reply to my post that you didn't need to undo the nuts before jacking the car up
Post 60

 

[mj4456]

I work as a parts adviser in main dealer and sell loads of space saver/jack kits, circa £145, people don't care about the cost they want peace of mind, most of the cars have a space saver sized space in the boot, full sized don't fit right, although if I recall some of the 2016 model cars are once again coming with spare wheels as standard. I'll need to check tomorrow. Both my cars have space saver wheels, one a hatchback has plenty room to carry the full size home but in my ragtop a rear wheel would fill the boot(different size front and rear) or have to sit on the front seat if I had anything in the boot, or if I had a passenger and a full boot need to be lobbed over a wall to be recovered later.

 

[nilagin]

As I said I love your optimism you obviously have never been involved in training and a little thought and reasoning are not always achievable by many ..............its a bit like common sense and Health and Safety.

Computer helplines are a good place to look how the obvious is never discovered

Actually I have.
I would say 90% of people who claim they don't know how to change a wheel,

1. have never tried,
2. got someone else to do it because they are convinced they don't know how without even thinking about it,
3. too darned lazy to try.

 

[nilagin]

I thought you said in reply to my post that you didn't need to undo the nuts before jacking the car up
Post 60

You don't have too but do it wrong and the wheel spins as you pointed out, do it right as I mentioned in another post because you are acting against the pivot point of the wheel centre.

 

[nilagin]

I work as a parts adviser in main dealer and sell loads of space saver/jack kits, circa £145, people don't care about the cost they want peace of mind, most of the cars have a space saver sized space in the boot, full sized don't fit right, although if I recall some of the 2016 model cars are once again coming with spare wheels as standard. I'll need to check tomorrow. Both my cars have space saver wheels, one a hatchback has plenty room to carry the full size home but in my ragtop a rear wheel would fill the boot(different size front and rear) or have to sit on the front seat if I had anything in the boot, or if I had a passenger and a full boot need to be lobbed over a wall to be recovered later.

Don't know about other manufacturers but on Ford cars, those that come with a puncture repair kit as standard, spare wheels and jacks etc., are offered as an optional replacement when the car is ordered, It's about £100 for a Fiesta.

 

[Cobra]

spare wheels and jacks etc., are offered as an optional replacement when the car is ordered,

Many years ago, heaters were also optional extra's, and slowly "more and more" was offered as standard to make it more attractive to the buyer.
IMO removal of the spare is a retrograde step.
We can have electric windows air conditioning and all sorts of other driver comforts, however a basic but essential small part now seems to be one of those
optional extra's we hear about all the time, in an effort to bump the price of the vehicle up.
and to save a few Cu ins of boot space.

Take a leaf out of land rovers book and bolt the spare to the rear door ( or boot lid) or bonnet. Problem solved

 

[nilagin]

Many years ago, heaters were also optional extra's, and slowly "more and more" was offered as standard to make it more attractive to the buyer.
IMO removal of the spare is a retrograde step.
We can have electric windows air conditioning and all sorts of other driver comforts, however a basic but essential small part now seems to be one of those
optional extra's we hear about all the time, in an effort to bump the price of the vehicle up.
and to save a few Cu ins of boot space.

Take a leaf out of land rovers book and bolt the spare to the rear door ( or boot lid) or bonnet. Problem solved

Are they essential though or just a precaution? It would be interesting to know the statistics of how often spares actually are needed. In over 35 years of driving I have needed to fit a spare 4 times at most and could only fit 3 due to 2 punctured tyres at the same time.

 

[seriousrikk]

Actually I have.
I would say 90% of people who claim they don't know how to change a wheel,

1. have never tried,
2. got someone else to do it because they are convinced they don't know how without even thinking about it,
3. too darned lazy to try.

1. If someone has never tried, they don't know how to do it.
2. If someone doesn't know how without thinking about it, they don't know how to do it.
3. If they are too lazy to try, they have never tied. Se #1.

So those 90% who claim they don't know how to change a wheel don't actually know how to change a wheel.

Yes, maybe I am being pedantic (I am) but I am OK with that.

So, you say how hard can it be to work it out? So assuming the person can access the bolts, and has indeed looked at the wrench and determined which end to use, how do they know which way to attempt to turn the bolt or nut?
Go back a step, how do they know they have to un-tighten the bolt a bit before jacking?
Go back a step, how to they know how to use those pathetic little jacks in moderate safety. I know, the user manual has all of that stuff in it, but not all of those are still in the car.

The fact is changing a wheel is hard if you've never done it or had to think about it before. There is a lot of stuff that comes naturally to many of us but not everyone. Some people can work it out, some cannot. For some it is a confidence thing, they don't have the confidence to do something so critical to their car. And lets face it, changing a wheel is pretty critical to the car, so that is understandable.

Do not judge everyone by your own standards or abilities. Everyone has different backgrounds, different skills and differing levels of practical/logical ability.

 

[Cobra]

Are they essential though or just a precaution? It would be interesting to know the statistics of how often spares actually are needed.

To be fair, Tyres do seem a lot more resilient to punctures these days than when I started driving ( and before you )
I do a good 50,000 miles a year, in a company 4x4 both on and off road, and despite the fact that the fuel card is also an AA breakdown card I wouldn't be without the spare.
So I guess its just another form of insurance.

 

[nilagin]

The fact is changing a wheel is hard if you've never done it or had to think about it before. There is a lot of stuff that comes naturally to many of us but not everyone. Some people can work it out, some cannot. For some it is a confidence thing, they don't have the confidence to do something so critical to their car. And lets face it, changing a wheel is pretty critical to the car, so that is understandable

You know those baby toys where you have to fit the specific shapes through the right holes. If an adult can do that, that is how easy it is to work out how to change a wheel.

There must be a lot of people who don't know how to unscrew a lid on a bottle or jar by your reckoning.

 

[DorsetDude]

 

[Paulmag]

You know those baby toys where you have to fit the specific shapes through the right holes. If an adult can do that, that is how easy it is to work out how to change a wheel.

There must be a lot of people who don't know how to unscrew a lid on a bottle or jar by your reckoning.

Funny you should say that as I get asked to open jars and bottles

 

[OldCarlos]

Are they essential though or just a precaution? It would be interesting to know the statistics of how often spares actually are needed.

The couple of times I've been to our local garage/tyre fitter they've had quite a few puncture repairs in, so I guess if you multiply that nationally it'll be thousands, so without a spare wheel they would be stuck waiting for recovery or if they'd used the `kit` at the roadside they'd still need to get it changed & expense for a new one, rather than just a cheaper repair at a more convenient time.

As Cobra says, it's just a way of screwing a bit more cash from the consumer.

 

[Nod]

Take a leaf out of land rovers book and bolt the spare to the rear door ( or boot lid) or bonnet. Problem solved

The spare dangling on the back door buggers the hinges and has been known to rip through the skin of the door. The wheel mounted on the bonnet doesn't do much for front left corner visibility and is a PITA to lift on without scratching the paint as well as to get fixed down properly. The mount inside, against the bulkhead behind the seats means that everything in the back has to come out, just like a car with the spare in the boot. Solid tyres are the way to go!!!

 

[nilagin]

As Cobra says, it's just a way of screwing a bit more cash from the consumer.

For the sake of £100, I'm willing to bet most dealers will throw it in for free when you order the car.
Manufacturers do their research and fit things people "want".
How many people really need a sat nav. I've used one once, I don't need one, I can get to where I want to go without one, even places I have not been before. So without cars getting overly expensive, manufacturers fit what the buyers want as standard and other things become options.

 

[nilagin]

Solid tyres are the way to go!!!

The ride will be pretty harsh.
This idea has been floating around for quite a few years, don't know if it would ever happen though.

 

[nilagin]

View attachment 65256

His jack appears to be broken and someone appears to have transplanted another animals head onto a horses body.

 

[OldCarlos]

For the sake of £100, I'm willing to bet most dealers will throw it in for free when you order the car.

Aye, that's ok, BUT all that does is give them the excuse to stop any further bartering, by giving you summat you should have had in the first place.

 

[nilagin]

Aye, that's ok, BUT all that does is give them the excuse to stop any further bartering, by giving you summat you should have had in the first place.

Get the main bartering done first and leave that for last along with mats and fuel.

 

[OldCarlos]

Get the main bartering done first and leave that for last along with mats and fuel.

Why should anyone need to barter for a spare wheel?

 

[Paulmag]

If you have a company supplied vehicle then bartering is pointless as for the user its based on list price plus any extras so costs more

PS Nissan dealers wrote to me and everyone else re upgrading to a spare for £160 I went for it or rather the company did

 

[seriousrikk]

You know those baby toys where you have to fit the specific shapes through the right holes. If an adult can do that, that is how easy it is to work out how to change a wheel.

Maybe it is when you look at it in a totally clinical and disconnected way.
However when stuck on the side of the road/in a car par/wherever and never having had to think about doing it then it will not be that easy. Why? Other factors that impair ones ability to take a step back and work it out.
Oh, and you know that thing that you ignored about peoples natural concern about something critical to their car/safety, that factors in too.

There must be a lot of people who don't know how to unscrew a lid on a bottle or jar by your reckoning.

Nope, don't extrapolate my reckoning to ridiculous scenarios in a failed effort to prove your point.
People learn how to unscrew a lid on a jar or bottle at an early age, and they require significantly less force for those who forget which way to turn it.
Try again.

Actually, don't. No point trying to put an alternative view across your mind is clearly closed.

 

[Cobra]

The spare dangling on the back door buggers the hinges and has been known to rip through the skin of the door. The wheel mounted on the bonnet doesn't do much for front left corner visibility and is a PITA to lift on without scratching the paint as well as to get fixed down properly. The mount inside, against the bulkhead behind the seats means that everything in the back has to come out, just like a car with the spare in the boot. Solid tyres are the way to go!!!

Don't be so damned negative all the time
btw Never had an issue with the door mounted wheel on the LR90 that "we" had for years

For the sake of £100, I'm willing to bet most dealers will throw it in for free when you order the car.
Manufacturers do their research and fit things people "want".

According to a few car threads recently it seems there is very little wriggle room.

How many people really need a sat nav. I've used one once, I don't need one, I can get to where I want to go without one,

I used to drive (HGV's) all over the country without one, I still drive all over the country, and could get by without one, but it just makes my live so much easier.
"Live" ones are great for telling you where the problems are and finding the shortest diversion route, saving time and fuel.
Lazy I maybe, but when you get to my age, every little helps

 

[Nod]

Don't be so damned negative all the time
btw Never had an issue with the door mounted wheel on the LR90 that "we" had for years


According to a few car threads recently it seems there is very little wriggle room.


I used to drive (HGV's) all over the country without one, I still drive all over the country, and could get by without one, but it just makes my live so much easier.
"Live" ones are great for telling you where the problems are and finding the shortest diversion route, saving time and fuel.
Lazy I maybe, but when you get to my age, every little helps

90s (and all Defenders IIRC) have a 3 hinge rear door wile real (Series!) Landies have only 2. Possibly (make that probably!) due to using cheapo hinges, Dad had one break. Luckily in his driveway while doing some interior stuff so didn't fall off on the road! Got hold of a bonnet with the wheel mounting dip and brackets. I half wish I'd bought another 90 while they were still vaguely affordable. Might!!!

Sat nav's very handy when driving solo to somewhere new or totally unfamiliar. I still plan a route using maps and frequently disagree with the tw@nav's route out of town but if I'm unsure about the route, I'll set the system as a guide.

 

[nilagin]

Nope, don't extrapolate my reckoning to ridiculous scenarios in a failed effort to prove your point.

Bottle caps, jar lids and wheel nuts all unscrew ant-clockwise, how hard is that to understand.

 

[Gremlin]

I used to drive (HGV's) all over the country without one, I still drive all over the country, and could get by without one, but it just makes my live so much easier.
"Live" ones are great for telling you where the problems are and finding the shortest diversion route, saving time and fuel.
Lazy I maybe, but when you get to my age, every little helps

Correction at your age you need all the help you can get

Satnavs, well l could live without one, l can read a map, hard when you are driving though, and ok as long as you have a passenger that can, not like
one that tried to send me right round the M25 instead of the few miles needed
Mine has traffic reports, it has saved me hours avoiding hold ups etc.

 

[Nod]

Bottle caps, jar lids and wheel nuts all unscrew ant-clockwise, how hard is that to understand.

But which way does an ant's clock go?

Some cars have different directions to undo on either side, although the nuts are generally marked. Some people have problems with left and right. With the profusion of digital watches, is everyone aware of clockwise these days?

 

[nilagin]

Ok I concede not everyone knows how to change a wheel.






But if you are really struggling to work it out, you can always ask for a professionals help.

 

[wack61]

Many years ago, heaters were also optional extra's, and slowly "more and more" was offered as standard to make it more attractive to the buyer.
IMO removal of the spare is a retrograde step.
We can have electric windows air conditioning and all sorts of other driver comforts, however a basic but essential small part now seems to be one of those
optional extra's we hear about all the time, in an effort to bump the price of the vehicle up./QUOTE]

I had a C reg Granada with ABS brakes but no rear seat belts because they weren't a legal requirement, always seems odd to me that an expensive piece of technology was standard but the thing that may actually save your life was an option

 

[seriousrikk]

Bottle caps, jar lids and wheel nuts all unscrew ant-clockwise, how hard is that to understand.

You KNOW that. I KNOW that. How does a non mechanically minded person KNOW that? Sure you can work it out, but for someone not of that mindset connecting jars, bottles to wheel nuts is quite a leap of logic.

How hard is it to understand people think differently to you? I am genuinely astounded you are so blinkered to this.

 

[nilagin]

You KNOW that. I KNOW that. How does a non mechanically minded person KNOW that? Sure you can work it out, but for someone not of that mindset connecting jars, bottles to wheel nuts is quite a leap of logic.

How hard is it to understand people think differently to you? I am genuinely astounded you are so blinkered to this.

Once again it has nothing to do with being mechanically minded and I find it astounding and blinkered to think of it as such. Just because it involves doing something on a car other than driving it or cleaning it, doesn't make it mechanical. We're not talking changing brake pads or a clutch.
Lets assume we have a 17yr old just passed their test. That 17yr old will have quite a few years experience unscrewing bottle lids. Instinct takes over. They have the basics. Go back to my analogy to the childs toy, fitting the right shapes in the right holes, that is all the experience that anyone needs to see where the jack fits on the sill seam to jack up the car.
I can understand someone being insure if you are unscrewing something upside down, but the rest of the time, your instinct from past experiences takes over.
As I said before people are too lazy to think about it, like yourself wrongly thinking it requires special mechanical knowledge and/or skills they convince themselves they don't have the knowledge on how to do it yet they have all the skills and knowledge from doing other stuff for years, but refuse to see the similarities and draw on that experience.

 

[Paulmag]

Once again it has nothing to do with being mechanically minded and I find it astounding and blinkered to think of it as such. Just because it involves doing something on a car other than driving it or cleaning it, doesn't make it mechanical. We're not talking changing brake pads or a clutch.
Lets assume we have a 17yr old just passed their test. That 17yr old will have quite a few years experience unscrewing bottle lids. Instinct takes over. They have the basics. Go back to my analogy to the childs toy, fitting the right shapes in the right holes, that is all the experience that anyone needs to see where the jack fits on the sill seam to jack up the car.
I can understand someone being insure if you are unscrewing something upside down, but the rest of the time, your instinct from past experiences takes over.
As I said before people are too lazy to think about it, like yourself wrongly thinking it requires special mechanical knowledge and/or skills they convince themselves they don't have the knowledge on how to do it yet they have all the skills and knowledge from doing other stuff for years, but refuse to see the similarities and draw on that experience.

Sorry but your arrogance astounds me............you are either a troll and just on a wind up or incapable of understanding what people are saying changing a wheel does require skills maybe not the same as splitting the atom but skills never the less the fact that you have or believe that you have those skills is irrelevant to anyone else..............fear and lack of confidence standing in the dark on your own at the side of the road on the hard shoulder (If there is one with the new smart highways) in the p***ing rain will not help someone overcome those fears .

Just ring the AA or RAC and have a man come fix it just same as when the tv video PC MAC Ipod Washing machine etc dont work call a man who can....

 

[camerassassin]

I've just checked what's underneath the floor at the back of my Freelander - yup a real genuine wheel

I'd a feeling it was BUT I can't change it - that's why I have Lifetime RAC Membership - blue badge holder now [ wasn't when we took out membership some many many many years ago ] .

My husband insisted on a full size wheel - we'd had a caravan tyre blow once - not a nice experience and fortunately he had bought a spare for that, which was useful as getting spare tyres for a Brit Caravan in France ain't easy - believe me it wasn't.

I've a feeling that when I got the first Freelander I told the salesman one of the essential bits was a full size wheel so all anyone would have to do for me was change it.

 

[Russ77]

Once again it has nothing to do with being mechanically minded and I find it astounding and blinkered to think of it as such. Just because it involves doing something on a car other than driving it or cleaning it, doesn't make it mechanical. We're not talking changing brake pads or a clutch.
Lets assume we have a 17yr old just passed their test. That 17yr old will have quite a few years experience unscrewing bottle lids. Instinct takes over. They have the basics. Go back to my analogy to the childs toy, fitting the right shapes in the right holes, that is all the experience that anyone needs to see where the jack fits on the sill seam to jack up the car.
I can understand someone being insure if you are unscrewing something upside down, but the rest of the time, your instinct from past experiences takes over.
As I said before people are too lazy to think about it, like yourself wrongly thinking it requires special mechanical knowledge and/or skills they convince themselves they don't have the knowledge on how to do it yet they have all the skills and knowledge from doing other stuff for years, but refuse to see the similarities and draw on that experience.

I have to agree........ You don't need to be a mechanic just to understand how to change a wheel and/or carry out basic maintenance/checks on a car.

As a responsible motorist, you should be checking things like oil/coolant levels and tyre pressure/condition on a frequent basis (at least every couple of weeks, if not weekly). I was quite lucky that my Granddad was an engineer (repaired garage equipment all over the south east) so I used to watch him working on my Dad's car from time to time, I was also taught how to care for and maintain a bike (was safely using a compressor to inflate my bike tyres from around 10 years old whilst under supervision).

It's long been my belief that new drivers should learn and be tested on these basic skills, perhaps it would be unfair to ask a 7st 17 year old girl/boy to change a tyre but they should at least have enough knowledge to instruct someone else.

I guess one of the problems with this is "modern cars" which compared to cars 20-30 years ago need far less in the way of maintenance, the vast majority of cars built in the last 20 years (ish) will happily go between services without even needing the oil topped up, let alone anything else so there's an element of complacency when it comes to the basics

 

[nilagin]

Sorry but your arrogance astounds me............you are either a troll and just on a wind up or incapable of understanding what people are saying changing a wheel does require skills maybe not the same as splitting the atom but skills never the less the fact that you have or believe that you have those skills is irrelevant to anyone else..............fear and lack of confidence standing in the dark on your own at the side of the road on the hard shoulder (If there is one with the new smart highways) in the p***ing rain will not help someone overcome those fears .

Just ring the AA or RAC and have a man come fix it just same as when the tv video PC MAC Ipod Washing machine etc dont work call a man who can....

How did we get from people having the knowledge within them but too lazy to work it out for themselves to needing to do it on a dark wet road. Also there is a world of difference between fixing a computer or tv to changing a wheel. We are only talking about changing the wheel not removing the tyre and fitting a new one.
A wheel needs changing because the tyre is flat, you can see it's flat. A tv or computer doesn't work and a bloody huge percentage won't know what to do with it other than give it to someone to fix.

If you are physically unable to change a wheel I accept that. But if you have the mental ability to learn to drive, pass the tests and make concious decisions whilst driving which is a lot more difficult and requires more instantaneous thought, then you have the mental capacity to change a wheel.
I've already pointed out that every motorist has aquired the necessary skills by doing other things in their lives. It is just a case of recognising that and reapplying them.
But like all those people who claim they don't know how to change a wheel, you refuse to reapply that knowledge and dismiss it.

 

[omens]

@nilagin

I think you're giving people too much credit. The national IQ is 104 and some people will be smarter, and others less gifted. I've worked with people who, given a screwdriver and a screw that needs undoing, would try to turn the screw clockwise and then not realise it should be the other way. These same people would not be able to translate the skill into everyday life. One person at work couldn't fathom why her printer wasn't working. It was only when I checked it out did we discover it had been switched off.

The wife does not know how to check tyre pressures. She checks them when the warning light comes on by driving to BMW and getting them to check it. She would not know how to change a tyre nor would she bother; she has breakdown cover and would call them. But on the other hand, she's great at doing arty type stuff like singing and drawing, which I'm rubbish at.

Remember that people may not pass their driving test the first time but we don't fail them and stop them from learning. They're allowed to repeat again and again until they pass.

 

[seriousrikk]

I said mechanically minded, I should have said practically minded. To me a subtle difference, but a massive difference when written down.

But if you have the mental ability to learn to drive, pass the tests and make concious decisions whilst driving which is a lot more difficult and requires more instantaneous thought, then you have the mental capacity to change a wheel.

You learn to drive. By being taught.

I've already pointed out that every motorist has acquired the necessary skills by doing other things in their lives.

People acquire skills by either being taught or trying things out. For many people the process of trying things out involves doing stuff and either getting it completely wrong or doing it badly.Lets face it, to get good at something you first have to be not very good at it.
But the point I am making here is everything you mentioned pretty much fits into the taught or acquired over time category.

It is just a case of recognising that and reapplying them.

But like all those people who claim they don't know how to change a wheel, you refuse to reapply that knowledge and dismiss it.

Here is my issue.
Not all folks have the mental agility to do the recognition part, meaning they don't know that they already have some of the required knowledge.
It's not about refusal to re-apply the knowledge, it's about not recognising the knowledge is there in the first place.
This is not because people are lazy, or stupid, as you seem to think. It is because people think and reason differently.

I've always thought that was pretty easy to understand, but hey, people think differently, so some won't get it.

 

[Cobra]

Correction at your age you need all the help you can get

Absolutely

I had a C reg Granada with ABS brakes but no rear seat belts because they weren't a legal requirement, always seems odd to me that an expensive piece of technology was standard but the thing that may actually save your life was an option

Well ABS brakes were there to save your lives in the wet and ice, if you believed the commercial,
as it seems, even back then a lot of people couldn't drive in the wet and ice.

So I would have thought that with such a marvellous piece of technology, seat belts are unnecessary

 

[OldCarlos]

So I would have thought that with such a marvellous piece of technology, seat belts are unnecessary

Too right. We have those comfy airbag thingies too.

 

[viv1969]

@nilagin

I think you're giving people too much credit. The national IQ is 104 and some people will be smarter, and others less gifted. I've worked with people who, given a screwdriver and a screw that needs undoing, would try to turn the screw clockwise and then not realise it should be the other way. These same people would not be able to translate the skill into everyday life. One person at work couldn't fathom why her printer wasn't working. It was only when I checked it out did we discover it had been switched off.

The wife does not know how to check tyre pressures. She checks them when the warning light comes on by driving to BMW and getting them to check it. She would not know how to change a tyre nor would she bother; she has breakdown cover and would call them. But on the other hand, she's great at doing arty type stuff like singing and drawing, which I'm rubbish at.

Remember that people may not pass their driving test the first time but we don't fail them and stop them from learning. They're allowed to repeat again and again until they pass.

Never considered teaching her?