Sony NEX-5 vs Leica M8

That is the NEX-3 which, I think, doesn't have interchangeable lenses, the NEX-5 is the one that is has the interchangeable lenses.

what do you mean by that ? of course it's possible to change the lenses. 16mm, 18-55mm, 18-200mm those are the 3 you can have one NEX . the difference between nex3 and 5 are minor. 5 has a bit better video.
 
I think that simplyelectronics.net is not UK based therefore you would have to pay tax + you wouldn't get local warranty or so .

the 18-200mm is a beast !!!
 
The correct answer is clearly GF1 ;)

Don't you think with a prime lens the NEX-5 will perform better than GF1?:shrug:

It has to be true at least because of NEX-5's bigger sensor size.

23.4x15.6mm (Nex-5) vs 18x13.5mm (GF1)

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Simply Electronics, my D700 and 24-70 are being sent off for repair next week and I wanted something else to play with snappy. No pun intended...

it will take a while to get it delivered ! :( . that's the cost you have to pay for the cheapness.

oh ! and congrats on the baby ! :)
 
Don't you think with a prime lens the NEX-5 will perform better than GF1?:shrug:

It has to be true at least because of NEX-5's bigger sensor size.

23.4x15.6mm (Nex-5) vs 18x13.5mm GF1

The NEX certainly has better high ISO performance but that's not the only thing that makes a good camera - the lack of controls on the NEX effectively makes it a very fancy point and shoot. They are nice and small though, but I don't like the look personally.

Also I could be wrong but I don't think the Sony lens is meant to be all that great, and the Panasonic 20mm prime is superb.
 
Don't you think with a prime lens the NEX-5 will perform better than GF1?:shrug:

It has to be true at least because of NEX-5's bigger sensor size.

23.4x15.6mm (Nex-5) vs 18x13.5mm GF1


Gf1, G1 or whatever owners are so such snobs ! :p

sony is clearly better, I only wish it had more buttons but I think I could get used to it.
 
The NEX certainly has better high ISO performance but that's not the only thing that makes a good camera - the lack of controls on the NEX effectively makes it a very fancy point and shoot. They are nice and small though, but I don't like the look personally.

Also I could be wrong but I don't think the Sony lens is meant to be all that great, and the Panasonic 20mm prime is superb.

sony's lenses are amazing ! :)
the 16mm f2.8 is sharp even wide open.
 
I dunno I'm afraid.

I'd dispute the quality drop though - at high ISO sure but at lower ISOs I sincerely doubt you would be able to tell any difference in IQ.
 
I had a play with a NEX-5 in a shop and it was horrible. The "background blur" control made me want to smash it, but of course I couldn't (afford to).

"EVIL" cameras will never be better than true rangefinders for the same reason they won't ever be better than SLRs, they simply lack that responsiveness you sometimes want and need.

A rangefinder isn't for everyone, but neither is a DSLR. Leica rangefinders are fine pieces of engineering and very good tools for taking photos, as much as Hoppy will disagree with me. Yes, expensive. But boy, the glass is good. The controls are perfectly simple (especially for someone who knows what they are doing re. photography). Ok, Leicas are lacking in features - much of that limitations of the rangefinder system. Does this mean that there is no place for them? No more than there is no place for digital medium format and the S2.

NEX-5 is "good enough", especially for the price. If I could afford to treat myself to a something which is luxury and a real joy to use, I'd go for the Leica without a doubt. Red dot or not.

Oh, without wanting to make any accusations, I have actually used an M8 and it is a fantastic camera. It handles well, is easy, logical and comfortable to use and the lenses produce stunning images when used the way they are designed to - more wide open than not. If you actually get to use a Leica rangefinder and don't like it, it's probably not for you. Just like Sinar large format cameras might not be for you either.
 
I immediately set my brothers nex-5 into Aperture priority so I could take some control back and to be honest after setting it up it was fine with little need to go back into the menu. It is harder to adjust on the fly than a dslr layout but I found myself warming to it. A lens convertor and a couple of fd lenses are on his shopping list I think.
 
""EVIL" cameras will never be better than true rangefinders for the same reason they won't ever be better than SLRs, they simply lack that responsiveness you sometimes want and need."

Eh? Have you tried a GF1?

I have a GF1 and it's a very responsive camera and I can shoot faster than I can with a range finder.

Take a GF1 and select aperture, shutter or manual and set it up as you want and you're away. You can even set auto ISO and multishot. I just can't see how you'd think that a range finder is more responsive even if you preset the focus as many did / do. The only advantage that I can see for a range finder is the lack of vision interruption whilst shooting but that could be equalled by fitting an optical viewfinder to a GF1.

I'm 100% confident that my GF1 is more responsive than my range finder and I'm 100% confident that I can shoot faster with it too and with a higher keep rate.
 
""EVIL" cameras will never be better than true rangefinders for the same reason they won't ever be better than SLRs, they simply lack that responsiveness you sometimes want and need."

Eh? Have you tried a GF1?

I have a GF1 and it's a very responsive camera and I can shoot faster than I can with a range finder.

Take a GF1 and select aperture, shutter or manual and set it up as you want and you're away. You can even set auto ISO and multishot. I just can't see how you'd think that a range finder is more responsive even if you preset the focus as many did / do. The only advantage that I can see for a range finder is the lack of vision interruption whilst shooting but that could be equalled by fitting an optical viewfinder to a GF1.

I'm 100% confident that my GF1 is more responsive than my range finder and I'm 100% confident that I can shoot faster with it too and with a higher keep rate.

I have tried a GF1 and I want one. I actually want one more than I want a Leica, not because it is faster or more responsive (because it isn't) but because it is in my opinion the best M4/3 camera about at the moment. Like the NEX-5, one can potentially mount practically any lens on it ever, but it's easier to control.
What "EVIL" cameras lack is that fine focus control when you use those groovy manual lenses however. Ok, you can zoom in on the LCD image and fine-focus that way but it's no match for an optical finder with focus coupling - SLR or Rangefinder style.
 
In what way is a range finder more responsive than the GF1? I still just can't see any way that it is.

After reading your post last night I got my range finder and GF1 out and tried to see any way in which the range finder is more responsive and I couldn't. I could change shutter speed and aperture as fast on the GF1, I could focus quicker and I could certainly shoot faster. I just can't see any way that a film range finder can match the shooting speed and focus accuracy of the GF1. On the subject of focusing, I can't see how a range finder is more accurate than a x10 display, how can it be? Range finders can be accurate if you get a nice bright one (hopefully correctly aligned) and you'll need a bright one if the light is failing and that's what I have but there's no way on this earth that it's as accurate as a x10 display on the back of a GF1 and if you don't like auto focus and modern lenses you can get an adapter and fit a manual lens to a GF1 too. You can probably fit whatever is on your range finder now.

The fastest way to shoot with a range finder particularly in difficult or changing conditions is to pre focus using the distance scale or to hyperfocal with a wide lens but you can do these things with a GF1 too (assuming that your lens has a distance scale) and you have the benefit of being able to set auto ISO too.

I personally think that the GF1 is the first digital camera that can truly act as a replacement for the smaller quality film cameras many of us used years ago, or in fact still use. If there's any question mark at all I wouldn't say that it's against responsiveness or speed of operation as I think that the digital GF1 is ahead of range finders and the like in these respects. Actually it's not really fair to say "digital" with the GF1 as you can fit manual lenses so really it can be a manual lens with a digital back. I think that the only question marks are against depth of field and dynamic range. I wouldn't even question noise performance these days as people seem to forget what life was like not so long ago.
 
Serious enough photographer, but methinks he got that M9 for free :naughty:

leica.jpg

what's serious about naked men and a horse ! :lol: that doesn't sound serious !


btw I've just learned the alternative to leica m7 - minolta CLE = such a beauty, Leica and minolta collaboration, only Leica feared it's popularity and killed it, sort of. but yes, it's a film camera .
 
I wonder where that naked guy keeps his mobile phone?
 
In what way is a range finder more responsive than the GF1? I still just can't see any way that it is.

After reading your post last night I got my range finder and GF1 out and tried to see any way in which the range finder is more responsive and I couldn't. I could change shutter speed and aperture as fast on the GF1, I could focus quicker and I could certainly shoot faster. I just can't see any way that a film range finder can match the shooting speed and focus accuracy of the GF1. On the subject of focusing, I can't see how a range finder is more accurate than a x10 display, how can it be? Range finders can be accurate if you get a nice bright one (hopefully correctly aligned) and you'll need a bright one if the light is failing and that's what I have but there's no way on this earth that it's as accurate as a x10 display on the back of a GF1 and if you don't like auto focus and modern lenses you can get an adapter and fit a manual lens to a GF1 too. You can probably fit whatever is on your range finder now.

The fastest way to shoot with a range finder particularly in difficult or changing conditions is to pre focus using the distance scale or to hyperfocal with a wide lens but you can do these things with a GF1 too (assuming that your lens has a distance scale) and you have the benefit of being able to set auto ISO too.

I personally think that the GF1 is the first digital camera that can truly act as a replacement for the smaller quality film cameras many of us used years ago, or in fact still use. If there's any question mark at all I wouldn't say that it's against responsiveness or speed of operation as I think that the digital GF1 is ahead of range finders and the like in these respects. Actually it's not really fair to say "digital" with the GF1 as you can fit manual lenses so really it can be a manual lens with a digital back. I think that the only question marks are against depth of field and dynamic range. I wouldn't even question noise performance these days as people seem to forget what life was like not so long ago.

Just a clarification, I am comparing the GF1 to Leica Rangefinders (and more specifically, the M8) which have excellent rangefinders - big, bright and accurate ones. Other rangefinders can also be good, I once shot an indoor gig with a Yashica rangefinder with no trouble at all. Let's not do the whole film vs. digital thing here.

When I mean "responsiveness" I mean that when I press the shutter release, the picture taking happens. There is a tangible delay between shutter press and photo taken on the GF1 (and all non DSLR/Digital rangefinder) whereas the M8 is more akin to a DSLR.

Focussing on a x10 display may well be more accurate than a real viewfinder (though I disagree here since I am able to focus perfectly well with a real viewfinder, particularly a rangefinder one). So the x10 display is capable of allowing me to focus just as accurately. True. I also have to press whatever buttons to zoom in x10 and find the thing I want to focus on. With manual lenses, a real viewfinder is still faster when you want accuracy.

The GF1 is a fine camera, but I wouldn't see it as a replacement or equivalent alternative to a quality rangefinder such as a Leica. I've no beef with owners of either camera.
 
I hadn't realised that you were comparing the GF1 to a digital range finder.

A quick Google provided the following shutter lag figures, for the M8, 80ms, and GF1, 72ms, so the GF1 may actually be faster but I would say that any difference one way or the other is going to be imperceptible so I can only assume that you experienced noticeable lag whilst metering or focusing. Obviously whilst doing these things there'll be a delay as there will be with any camera that meters or auto focuses but if you are using a GF1 as you would a manual range finder there will be no metering delay and the only delay will be that which allows the electronics to send the instruction to shoot and that will be imperceptible as it will be in the order of milliseconds. With aperture, shutter and focus set the GF1 will simply shoot when you press the button.

I too have a very bright range finder, 35mm film though, and I am convinced that I can't match the accuracy of a x10 display which you do not have to press any buttons to select, it simply appears as soon as you twist the focus ring. At least it does with my camera and lens. In small prints small focus errors may not be visible but these days it's easy to detect minor errors on nice big digital screens.

I don't think that I'll convince you that the GF1 is a responsive camera but I think that if you get the chance you should revisit the GF1 and use it as you would a manual camera. When values are preset I don't believe that you will experience any shutter lag and even with auto focusing and metering it's incredibly fast for subjects and in situations you'd use a range finder for.
 
Just a clarification, I am comparing the GF1 to Leica Rangefinders (and more specifically, the M8) which have excellent rangefinders - big, bright and accurate ones. Other rangefinders can also be good, I once shot an indoor gig with a Yashica rangefinder with no trouble at all. Let's not do the whole film vs. digital thing here.

When I mean "responsiveness" I mean that when I press the shutter release, the picture taking happens. There is a tangible delay between shutter press and photo taken on the GF1 (and all non DSLR/Digital rangefinder) whereas the M8 is more akin to a DSLR.

Focussing on a x10 display may well be more accurate than a real viewfinder (though I disagree here since I am able to focus perfectly well with a real viewfinder, particularly a rangefinder one). So the x10 display is capable of allowing me to focus just as accurately. True. I also have to press whatever buttons to zoom in x10 and find the thing I want to focus on. With manual lenses, a real viewfinder is still faster when you want accuracy.

The GF1 is a fine camera, but I wouldn't see it as a replacement or equivalent alternative to a quality rangefinder such as a Leica. I've no beef with owners of either camera.

If you want to make a case for the rangefinder camera as a concept, please don't cite the M8. It is a horrible camera, a real low point in the sad decline of Leica, and a betrayal of all that is good about that great name. The sensor is too small with its 1.3x crop factor so it cannot take proper advantage of the lenses, and it has unforgiveable IR sensitivity issues needing an extra filter over the lens (that still doesn't fix it). It is a travesty, which the hastily introduced M8.2 also failed to fix :shrug:

The M9 on the other hand, makes a much better fist of it, with a full frame sensor that actually works :thumbs: It is however, still a rangefinder camera which was conceived as a way around the fact that you can't see through the lens to compose a picture. History has proven that an SLR design is a much better way of doing that, and the writing has been on the wall for Leica since Nikon introduced the F in 1959, though Leica has stubbornly refused to appreciate this fact. Consquently, they have written their own death warrant and living off a glorious heritage cannot last much longer, if only because those people for whom the Leica name means anything are now literally dying themselves.

In particular, the rangfinder design suffers from parallax, which means it is useless for anything closer than two or three feet, and at the other end of the scale, 135mm is the limit for focusing and framing accuracy at long distance.

This does not make a very compelling argument for a popular camera, even if it was affordable. The M9 costs £5k without a lens, the 50mm f/2 lens adds well over another £1k to that, or £2.5k for the f/1.4. It's not even funny. The Leica market is now reduced not just to older people, but to very wealthy older people. It's not a recipe for success, even if the rangefinder concept was generally very appealing. Given that a) it isn't, and b) there are so many vastly cheaper alternatives about, well, there's a kind of inevitabilty about it all :(
 
The Nikon D3X cost about £5k without a lens when it was released so the M9 is no higher priced than top end Canon or Nikon models. As for the lenses, they are expensive as they are produced in smaller numbers hand made in Germany and are a premium product in a niche market. Nikon just made something like its 50,000,000 lens, that's not who Leica is competing with. You are paying for exceptional quality.
 
The Nikon D3X cost about £5k without a lens when it was released so the M9 is no higher priced than top end Canon or Nikon models. As for the lenses, they are expensive as they are produced in smaller numbers hand made in Germany and are a premium product in a niche market. Nikon just made something like its 50,000,000 lens, that's not who Leica is competing with. You are paying for exceptional quality.

I don't see how that is comparable or relevant. A Nikon D3X is an immensley capable camera with an incredible spec, nothing like anything Leica ever dreamed of, sadly, and it can do vastly more things than a Leica M9. Folks will pay for that. And in the areas where they overlap, the exceptional quality of the Leica is something I have always admired, but it is no better than any other top end full frame camera. Not the camera, not the sensor, not the lenses. What you are paying for is the name, nothing else.

And that is at the heart of the matter for Leica, it is just not worth paying for. If it was, people would buy, and they are not. Leica is now an esoteric irrelevance.

They have missed the boat so many times with their SLRs, and now they seem to have hung their fortunes on the S2, which is yet another astronomically expensive white elephant. In technological terms, the spiritual successor to the classic Leica is the sweet little X1. That could be so good, and even at £1400 would have a chance if only they had given it interchangeable lenses. Honestly, I give up with Leica; they just don't deserve the few long suffering loyal fans they have still got.
 
The S2 is aimed at the £25,000 pound Hasselblad/Phase One segment of the market which rules out 99.99% of us on here. The success of the Leica M9 is good news for Leica, but you won't see it producing an affordable DSLR like Canon or Nikon in the same way you won't see Rolls Royce taking on Ford in the hatchback market.
 
To compare a D3X to an M9......using the car analogy, is like comparing a Ferrari 599 to an Caterham 7.

Both lovely bits of engineering, and a scream round a track.....but is the 7 worth £300,000?
 
and nikon d3x is more of a lexus LFA . very expensive, fast and has loads of technology, too much I would say.

M9 is a Morgan aero supersports - fast, classy and smart, very exclusive, but not as fast as lfa or other supercars.
 
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