Sometimes I think...

[StewartR]

I'm not being defensive, I genuinely value the feedback that I get as it helps me to improve. It's the wording and nitpicking that does my head in. One of the comments in that thread if you read it starts with something along the lines of 'I would offer critique but for you to apply it you need a basic understanding of photography'.

I am always looking to improve and the feedback that I get through this site is very useful, but it's the wording that draws the line between constructive criticism and demoralising comments.

I think your glass is half empty.

I read that thread. 38 posts is way higher than most photo critique threads get. The way I see it, there were about 10 or 12 contributors who were polite, helpful and constructive; there was one whose critique was a bit terse; and there was one whose post had been removed, which was probably the one you referred to as rude.

Let's stop and think about that for a second. A dozen or so total strangers have freely given up their time in order to help you improve your photography, some of them even going to the lengths of trying out some alternative treatments of the image. Isn't that remarkable? I think it is. But instead of celebrating that, you seem to be focussing on the one person whose response you thought was rude.

Let's face it, in any group of people there is going to be a certain proportion who are rude and/or inarticulate and/or inebriated, and TP is no different. That's life. Report them to moderators, then ignore them and move on.

 

[Pinpho]

I haven't been defensive throughout the thread, it was the rude comments that put me in that frame of mind, so I apologise if I came off as being overly defensive. The majority of the feedback I have received in that thread is great however. I still stand by my original post however and think that some photographers are overly critical for the sake of being elitist.

I don't fancy myself as a professional, after the thread in which we were discussing portrait prices I realise that I need to put in a lot of work before I can get to that stage - although in the future I would like to be.

What I will say however is that I have done a couple of free portraits for some friends of mine just while we were out and about and they are genuinely thrilled with the shots I got of them. Is it not the end user who ultimately decides how much they like the photo? If you think that this is me saying 'I can be pro', it isn't, please refer back to the previous paragraph.

 

[StewartR]

I have done a couple of free portraits for some friends of mine just while we were out and about and they are genuinely thrilled with the shots I got of them. Is it not the end user who ultimately decides how much they like the photo?

Of course it is.

But would they still have liked them so much if they hadn't been you friends, and if they had paid for the photos? I don't know, and you probably don't either. That's where critique and the constant quest for self improvement come in. If you aspire to sell your work, then you need to have enough mastery of the process to *ensure* that the end user (i.e. client) will like your work and be happy to pay for it.

 

[Phil V]

I haven't been defensive throughout the thread, it was the rude comments that put me in that frame of mind, so I apologise if I came off as being overly defensive. The majority of the feedback I have received in that thread is great however. I still stand by my original post however and think that some photographers are overly critical for the sake of being elitist.

I don't fancy myself as a professional, after the thread in which we were discussing portrait prices I realise that I need to put in a lot of work before I can get to that stage - although in the future I would like to be.

What I will say however is that I have done a couple of free portraits for some friends of mine just while we were out and about and they are genuinely thrilled with the shots I got of them. Is it not the end user who ultimately decides how much they like the photo? If you think that this is me saying 'I can be pro', it isn't, please refer back to the previous paragraph.

I think this is the crux of it, you're still at a point of being unconsciously incompetent. You have no idea yet what it is you don't know.

Whilst its true that a happy customer is a good result, there's a chasm between what some people consider to be a 'good photo' and what photographers consider a good photo. As I said before, if you just want smoke blowing up your arse, put your photos on Facebook, people will tell you they're awesomeee . If you want to improve, post photos here for critique and stop bellyaching about a couple of rude comments, there are rude people everywhere, we need to deal with them maturely.

 

[Tigger.ufo]

I read through the other thread before the supposedly rude post was edited and saw nothing majorly out of order/rude about it.

Perhaps a mod could look at it with a view to reinstating it as it is now being talked about as "the problem" when I don't think that is the case.

I have also now had a look at your portrait thread and I believe that the problem is that you don't accept critique well and perhaps need to think more about your posting style which definately comes across as defensive whether you think you are or not.

However wonderful your friends think your photographs are, they are not photographers, and if you ask photographers their opinion you will get the truth as they see it, as photographers, however harsh this seems to you.

This is a photography forum not your mates (although if you are lucky they may become your mates) and you will learn a lot from it if you choose to.

Just my opinion as a (very) amateur hobbyist.


Heather

 

[Yv]

I can't really say any more than has been said here already regarding how you chose to accept and use the critique freely offered by members from the absolute beginners to those that have forgotten more than some of us will ever know. Personally, I am not going to reinstate the post under discussion unless the guy concerned asks me to, simply for the sake of manners atm - however, it is flagged in the staffroom for discussion, so that may result in a different outcome.
However, I as a mod posted in the thread concerned and did not see an issue with what had been said. I might not necessarily agree with all the specific critique offered by various members, but I did not see a problem with what was said, how it was said or a reason to take any moderating action at the time [before the post was deleted]. As I also said, there are cases where posts do step over line, and thos should either be rtm'd, or just ignore and move on.

 

[StewartR]

I think this is the crux of it, you're still at a point of being unconsciously incompetent.

Just in case the OP takes offence at that word "incompetent", I should point out that Phil is referring to the four-stage learning model often attributed to Abraham Maslow. In this model, in learning any skill one proceeds through four stages:

1. Unconscious incompetence. You're doing it wrong, but you don't realise, because you don't know what "doing it right" involves.
2. Conscious incompetence. You know what "doing it right" means, and you know that you're not doing it.
3. Conscious competence. You can do it right, but you have to work at it.
4. Unconscious competence. Falling off a log.

Based on some of the points raised in "that" critique thread (e.g. regarding noise, high ISO, background distractions, etc.) I'd suggest that Phil's assessment is fair. But remember, it's not a judgmental model; it's just a statement of how things are. We all start at stage 1. Many people never progress beyond it. But in photography at least, the critique process can be very helpful in progressing to stage 2 if it's used properly.

 

[Pinpho]

Just in case the OP takes offence at that word "incompetent", I should point out that Phil is referring to the four-stage learning model often attributed to Abraham Maslow. In this model, in learning any skill one proceeds through four stages:

1. Unconscious incompetence. You're doing it wrong, but you don't realise, because you don't know what "doing it right" involves.
2. Conscious incompetence. You know what "doing it right" means, and you know that you're not doing it.
3. Conscious competence. You can do it right, but you have to work at it.
4. Unconscious competence. Falling off a log.

Based on some of the points raised in "that" critique thread (e.g. regarding noise, high ISO, background distractions, etc.) I'd suggest that Phil's assessment is fair. But remember, it's not a judgmental model; it's just a statement of how things are. We all start at stage 1. Many people never progress beyond it. But in photography at least, the critique process can be very helpful in progressing to stage 2 if it's used properly.

I understood it as it was intended, don't worry

 

[Cagey75]

:bang:

"Nice shot" means you can't be bothered.

"I think this is a nice shot because......." means you have actually looked at it properly and is much more helpful to others, not necessarily the person who took that particular photograph.

Heather

It's not for you to say to be honest. :bang: some people might just mean it as that. They don't have t add anything, that's completely up to them. Worry about your own critiques, not other's.


One issue I do find on here is any opinion given is immediately challenged and other angles on it forced. And the over use of smilies makes it seem really immature at times.

 

[Tigger.ufo]

"Nice shot" is NOT critique which is the point you have missed.


Heather

 

[DrGed]

That learning model is, I think a good idea, but I'd say people gradually move from one level to another and spend quite a bit of time in "mid-level".

I'd say I'm about 2.5 at the moment.

 

[Phil V]

"Nice shot" is NOT critique which is the point you have missed.
Heather

But the threads aren't specifically 'critique' they're headed 'invite discussion, feedback and comments'.

'Nice shot' is a valid comment, and sometimes there's work posted in there which is impossible to fault, surely we shouldn't stop awesome photographers from posting their work as inspiration?

 

[Tigger.ufo]

But the threads aren't specifically 'critique' they're headed 'invite discussion, feedback and comments'.

'Nice shot' is a valid comment, and sometimes there's work posted in there which is impossible to fault, surely we shouldn't stop awesome photographers from posting their work as inspiration?

Not at all.

Sorry, I wasn't clear about meaning it for people who use the Critique prefix, not just people after feedback.




Heather

 

[simonblue]

I find i don't shoot for other people any more just for me,i dont pixel peep or even check any data.
Do i like sometimes yes sometime not it works or its doesnt

 

[horrocks]

I have some sympathy with the OP. I have seen some very proficient photographs on the forum that pick up very few comments, and often those that there are obsess with some or other technical minutiae that is often completely irrelevant to the fact that the photo is actually aesthetically pleasing. Some almost invisible digital noise and the last nth of sharpness crop up all too regularly. Those who comment on B&W (a minority interest here) are all too often obsessed with 'contrast', completely forgetting, ignoring or just being unaware of the value of mid-tones. Sharpness is surely the worst offender though - I have seen some impeccable, perfectly sharp work criticised for lack of sharpness!

Then there is the 'tripod marks in the ground' syndrome, where shots of Buachaille Etive Mor with that blessed stream in the foreground, Whitby Abbey or The Roaches garner pages of fawning comments, however awful the photos, likewise surely with the most technically difficult and rarely aesthetically satisfying images, those of sunrise and sunset, whilst excellent photos of unknown locations are completely ignored.

However, and before I get accused of soapboxing, I have had a look at the OPs threads and fb page and clearly recognise myself in my early days on this forum. Danny, your photos have some way to go before you start nailing it, in both technical (first) and aesthetic (second), terms. I can recall similar feelings of indignation in myself when work that I had laboured over was politely (usually) shredded. My advice, for what it is worth, is to hang in there and take note. There are lots of good people here who will, bit by bit, help you, and bit by bit you will find that your work is improving and that you will be happier with it.

Take it from me, when I look back on my early submissions I am absolutely aghast that I though they were OK. The worst bit was the inevitable 'HDR stage'. Hopefully, in a year's time I won't care much for what I posted last week, because I will have improved. That is why we are all here.

Now best wishes and good luck, and keep posting.

 

[big soft moose]

Feel free to check out some of the responses to my recent thread in 'People & Portraits'

I just knew this was going to be a sour grapes because you didnt like the crit given thread

The thing is the section concern is feedback and critique - if you post there you've got expect feedback and critique - if you want everyone to blow smoke up your arse about how great your shots are , try flickr

 

[Cagey75]

I've finally gone and looked at the thread in critique section. I don't know why people get hung up on noise, when it's not that prominent ... I think those remarks were just the opposite of saying "nice pic" tbh.

But I didn't see anything nasty or mean either.

The image could have been much better if you'd simply moved to the right and captured him more from a head on view, get more of the guitar in. And I also think B&W would suit the image more. It has potential, the rework someone did on it was much better.

Learn from the critique and suggestions, take them on board, and I guarantee next time you'll have all that in mind and shoot a much better street portrait Don't tak things to heart so easily. I've seen much, much worse critiques, real nasty stuff. You got off lightly if anything.

 

[big soft moose]

I totally disagree with that. Nice shot means it's a nica shot. It is far from useless. Maybe because it's a positive comment you feel it holds no value? What a load of cods wallop. You don't always have to find fault with an image to critique it so when someone says nice shot that is a positive piece of feedback .

Neither "nice shot" nor "crap shot" are useful critique and feedback

I agree you don't have to find fault (although very few images have nothing that could be improved or could have been done differently )

If you want to give useful positive feedback the rubric is

" Thats a great shot, I particularly like how you've done x,y, and z " or if you don't know how the shot was achieved " thats a great shot, how did you achieve X, y, and Z "

If its generally good but there are some flaws

" thats a great shot, i especially like xyz, abc is a little weak , but it doesnt detract too much from the image, did you think about trying efg instead... etc "

Putting any two word comment just says that you couldn't be arsed to provide decent critique , and if you do it habitually it probably also indicates that your name is kirk and or you are making a run for the classifieds

 

[Cagey75]

You could debate that all day, it's like critiquing the critiques. People are free to leave whatever wording they like. I'd prefer people leave it simple than ramble on with nonsense when they clearly don't have a clue or any real advice to give.

 

[big soft moose]

They're not 'critique' sections though, if they were 'nice shot' would be useless.
.

Umm

Feedback&Critique Share your photography, galleries and images here, and invite discussion, feedback and comments on your work to get helpful advice on how to improve

How does either 'Nice shot' or 'Crap shot' help anyone improve - thats the acid test

 

[big soft moose]

On the thread in question , i was going to crit it, but was put off by flying teddies when others made perfectly reasonable points like

the big blob of yellow on the left of the picture
the under exposure/shadow on his face ('d have popped a bit of fill flash in there or pulled it back in lightroom)
noise isnt too prevalent but its still a valid crit that the iso was far to high (next time either take a tripod/monopod , learn to hold the camera steadier, or use a wider apperture to facilitate the same shutter speed at a lower iso )

theres nothing nasty on that thread - even the deleted coments were IRCC nothing more than slightly blunt.

 

[Phil V]

Umm



How does either 'Nice shot' or 'Crap shot' help anyone improve - thats the acid test

The description is borderline ambiguous, asking for comments and inviting discussion, which I would like to see along with pure 'critique' and indeed what does happen.

As far as the original thread goes and this entire attitude of 'harsh' critique, I've already said this, but it's the 2nd time it's been brought up lately and it's 99% groundless.

The really big issue is the general lack of critique, which is largely driven by people throwing tantrums when they get critique they didn't expect. SO what we we rather have:

A forum where the honest exchange of ideas is dealt with by adults?

No critique in case we hurt someone's feelings?

 

[big soft moose]

.

As far as the original thread goes and this entire attitude of 'harsh' critique, I've already said this, but it's the 2nd time it's been brought up lately and it's 99% groundless.

The really big issue is the general lack of critique, which is largely driven by people throwing tantrums when they get critique they didn't expect. SO what we we rather have:

A forum where the honest exchange of ideas is dealt with by adults?

No critique in case we hurt someone's feelings?

I fully agree there phil - we need the former , but until dummy spitting and teddy throwing is dealt with we won't get it

 

[Pinpho]

Just hope that newer members pass that first hurdle.

I'm here to stay for a while

 

[Cagey75]

Good, see? it didn't turn you off, those critiques

 

[Pinpho]

Good, see? it didn't turn you off, those critiques

Nope, of course not I think it's kind of like anywhere you go, if you join as an 'outsider' into an already established group, it can seem difficult to fit in at first.

 

[big soft moose]

Sarah, I got told in the earlier days of my time here, that my images were crap, without me asking for any critique.
.

thing is if you put them in feedback and critique you did ask for crit - that's the whole point of the section

taking it off the forum into real life isn't on though - i'd never do that (except with that prick who stole colins images and made out they were his own .. he got thoroughly owned on facebook and elsewhere - but that's different)

 

[On the Huh]

I got a 5 point infraction for being rude to an idiot who accused me of smoking whacky backy and calling me a knob. This idiot didn;t even get a suspension. :shrug:

OK it's only the internet and no harm done, but I believe in fairness and principles/morals.
Yes I could've RTM'd, but all I did was make light of his rudeness and tried to turn it around as a bit of banter. (I called him Dick instead of Richard)

No big deal but I'll be buggered to critique any ones photies again, really put me off.

 

[ZoneV]

Ignore. Question not relevant.

 

[big soft moose]

post ?, we don't need no stinkin posts

 

[ZoneV]

Sorry Pete, I must have removed my query as you were tying your post.

 

[Cagey75]

thing is if you put them in feedback and critique you did ask for crit - that's the whole point of the section

taking it off the forum into real life isn't on though - i'd never do that (except with that prick who stole colins images and made out they were his own .. he got thoroughly owned on facebook and elsewhere - but that's different)

They were just being bitter, they couldn't even say which images, I'm doubting they even looked. It was more a childish "you're s@&t" for no real reason other than to stir me up. It worked and they got away while I was ousted for defending myself. I have learned to bite my tongue, and hope these types get spotted and weeded out. But I would say this place has improved a lot since I started.

 

[SarahLee]

I've moved some of the posts relating to critique and UAP in general (rather than to one specific thread) over to a new thread in Forum Discussion.
There have been a few discussions on the topic in the last few days and it makes sense to keep them all in one place. Plus there have been some valid points and suggestions made which it would be a shame to lose in here.