Sometimes I think...

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Pinpho

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Danny
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... that a lot of people on here don't actually look for an image that is visually pleasing - which is essentially what photography is about. Instead they have to analyse everything and pick faults, checking exif data etc. Is it just me that thinks this? Do you still get enjoyment out of looking at photographs or do you have to look for faults in every one?

NOTE: I'm saying this as a general statement from what I have seen.
 
That's some assumption. Look around at any other photography forum online.

I still look at an image as it is, I only ever look to exif data if I'm interested in how it was shot. So I'll know when I'm in a similar situation, after a certain look or feel to an image.
 
I'm not trying to be rude in any way so I apologise if that's how I came across. I'm merely observing and asking the question to many, do you still get enjoyment from photographs, or do you look from a purely technical point of view?

You already answered this Cagey, but I am curious as to what others may think about this. Sometimes don't you ever want to sit back and look at an image without looking for faults? It could be a cracking shot but there will still be some 'the composition/focus/exposure isn't quite right, because you used x settings'. Kinda irks me and I don't want to end up not enjoying photographs because I am too caught up with the technicalities..
 
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Forum name is talk photography....
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I know, what you mean :D but find the talking/analytic bit is essential for progressing.

Still enjoying the good shots though! :)
 
surely the only place this happens is in the photo sharing part of this forum where people are asking others to comment and critique..

would be strange if it didnt happen ?
 
I have seen it in other places on the forum too, although I guess I am talking more about photographers in general than these particular forums.
 
You will never find an image that satisfies everyone, it just doesn't work that way. If you think TP is bad for critiques I suggest you go to the Tate Gallery and sit near some paintings for a while. I can guarantee you will hear all sorts of critique type comments both positive and negative.

On a positive note, I have learnt so much by reading critiques from some of our better photographers. Try reading them with slightly more open eyes and you may learn too (please do not take this as anything other than honest advice).

Andy
 
Pinpho said:
It could be a cracking shot but there will still be some 'the composition/focus/exposure isn't quite right, because you used x settings'. Kinda irks me and I don't want to end up not enjoying photographs because I am too caught up with the technicalities..
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If you want to carry on taking photos where the composition/focus/exposure isn't quite right, then nobody is forcing you to improve them. Don't post any pictures here and don't ask for or listen to any critique. But they won't be 'cracking' shots, except in the eyes of those who don't care whether the composition/focus/exposure is right. If that's who you're taking pictures for, then carry on.
 
I get what you are trying to say, but I think it is more of a gear head problem. If composition is poor, focus is out or exposure is cocked up not sure how it would be a cracking shot?

However, when people refer to sharpness (from eqpt not focusing) they could be missing the point.
 
I can see the point but it's pretty much like science and aviation design (Which I work in) basically, you'll go to the customer with a ground breaking design but then they say something stupid like 'why haven't you put the Lockheed logo on it' - 9/10 the shot is perfect it just needs that something to jazz it up a little - this is the most common thing I see on here, most people know that there are some very prestigious togs on here so it's almost like the Dragon's Den, if you are provided with Critique, look at the numbers of suggestions, if there are several then you've obviously doing it wrong etc :)

Think of Critique as a form of quality control, without it you wouldn't be sat at your computer / iPad.
 
Well, content dependant, if it is not a least technically (exposure & focus), and doesn't really have a subject, there is not much point a photograph, unless your are going for the "blurry" arty look.

If I like a photograph, for what ever reason, then the tecnicalities really don't come into it.
 
And the most important, do you like it? Would you put it on the wall? :)
 
Flightphoto said:
And the most important, do you like it? Would you put it on the wall? :)
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Ahh but that's another issue entirely.
I would say putting a photo up for critique on a photography forum is going to evoke different emotions than critique in (say) a gallery.

Photographers will of course critique from a technical point and some of this will be helpful and should be taken on board, but will a technically bad photograph effect what a picture buying public think? Possibly not.

Musicians can make technically wonderful music appreciated by fellow musicians but that does not mean the record buying public will buy it.
 
Pinpho said:
... that a lot of people on here don't actually look for an image that is visually pleasing - which is essentially what photography is about. Instead they have to analyse everything and pick faults, checking exif data etc. Is it just me that thinks this? Do you still get enjoyment out of looking at photographs or do you have to look for faults in every one?
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First off, I think it's a big assumption to make that photography for everyone is simply about taking a 'visually pleasing' image. In fact, my dictionary states that photography is the 'art or practice of taking and processing photographs' and doesn't say anything about the end product.

All kinds of folks enjoy photography for different reasons. Personally, I like using old film cameras and developing my own negatives in my 'darkroom' (i.e., the spare bathroom), but many other folks in this forum will enjoy photography for other reasons (e.g., social, technical, etc.)

Now, even if you were only concerned about the visuals of your final image, this would certainly be impacted by your proficiency with your camera and knowledge of photography.

If you take your camera to a sporting event and use a shutter speed slower than at least 1/500, you'll probably get motion blur, which will detract from the photo in many cases, even if all other aspects of the photo are 'artistically' spot on.

In such a case, the visual aspect is very much affected by the technical (so folks would be looking at the exif data and providing feedback as such in the critique section).

Personally, I think the art of photography does require significant skill and technical knowledge and it can be difficult to divorce these concepts and still take 'good' photographs.
 
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As always this is impossible to get to the 'truth' whilst we're discussing 'sometimes I think' scenarios.

But you need to remember that when people put things up for critique, they've done so because they want to improve. If people are happy to take OK photo's then that's fine, but if you ever want to do better than 'OK' then the only way to improve is to understand what's wrong. That's where the opinions of other photographers helps.

So, if you produce an OK photo shot at 1600 ISO that's got muddy noise blocking detail, and there was room to shoot at 400 ISO and get a cleaner image - that's valid critique if you want to improve.

If someone is happy creating mediocre images, that's fine too, but don't ask photographers opinions of them, you'll be told they're mediocre.
 
Phil V said:
If someone is happy creating mediocre images, that's fine too, but don't ask photographers opinions of them, you'll be told they're mediocre.
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If only, Phil. All too often I click on a thread that's claiming to ask for critique and see pictures that are snapshots at best - and not very interesting snapshots - to see a string of replies "G r 8 shot M8!"

We should really be 'talking' about 'photography' here, not 'booking' 'Faces'! ;)

[ETA because Marcel has rightly censored t x t s p k! ]
 
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Some people will always take critique the wrong way because they don't see anything wrong with their picture. So why ask for critique? Stick it in "Photos for pleasure" instead.

Sure, there are pictures which are visually pleasing,but if they are in the critique section then the photographer is asking if things could be improved and if so, how.

If I have asked for critique then I accept that people will have differing opinions on my pic that I may or may not agree with, but I would rather they explained why than said nothing. It is far worse to know that something is not right but not know how to fix it!


Heather
 
I don't take critique the wrong way, I take it in and use it to try and improve. But often i see on this site, 'that's terrible' rather than a constructive response, some people seem to enjoy being critical rather than offering critique.
 
Pinpho said:
I don't take critique the wrong way, I take it in and use it to try and improve. But often i see on this site, 'that's terrible' rather than a constructive response, some people seem to enjoy being critical rather than offering critique.
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Someone else said this the other day (or something similar) and was completely unable to show any actual examples.

I don't spend lots of time in critique sections, but I can say hand on heart - I've never seen that on here.
 
Phil V said:
Someone else said this the other day (or something similar) and was completely unable to show any actual examples.

I don't spend lots of time in critique sections, but I can say hand on heart - I've never seen that on here.
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Feel free to check out some of the responses to my recent thread in 'People & Portraits'
 
Pinpho said:
Feel free to check out some of the responses to my recent thread in 'People & Portraits'
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You got loads of useful comments abotu what was wrong with teh picture and good advice around settings and so on. What was the problem with that thread as I cannot see it?
 
ernesto said:
You got loads of useful comments abotu what was wrong with teh picture and good advice around settings and so on. What was the problem with that thread as I cannot see it?
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I did get lots of useful advice and then I got some picking faults that weren't there and just telling me how poor the image was without offering any critique.
 
Pinpho said:
Feel free to check out some of the responses to my recent thread in 'People & Portraits'
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Well all the comments I see there are genuine critique, I can't comment on the one that was removed as I can't see it.

There's definitely no "that's terrible" visible to me.

However, you ought to be aware that if you start telling the world you think you're ready to turn pro and then post photo's for critique of a 'far from professional' quality, you will be more harshly judged than if you'd posted them as "I've just got my first camera, what do you think of my first 'people' pictures".

And harsh as that might seem, it's probably correct, you'd think we were idiots for telling you that your work was OK and it leading you into a rough time with customers.
 
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Johnytuono said:
Hi
I enjoy the image for what it is and not really bothered about the technical issues like if the highlights are blown etc etc.
JohnyT
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I think this is totally fine if this is where your interest in photography takes you and most people I know probably would go along with this. They use their DSLRs or iPhones to simply capture a moment in time and aren't worried about motion blur, underexposure, blown highlights, converging verticals, etc.

That said, this approach is at odds, I think, with posting in the critique forum, is it not?
 
I can kind of identify with the OP, there are a few different things which I think can be a pain the butt, and don't get me wrong, any well constructed feedback I value very high.

One problem is people making lots of comments suggesting that they dont know what theyre doing and making them feel small.

Another is people almost checking boxes as they look at it like they're doing the final quality check on a boeing 747. If you ask them later what the picture was actually of they would have probably forgotten, I think this is when the technicalities begin to take over from creativity.
 
Pinpho said:
I did get lots of useful advice and then I got some picking faults that weren't there and just telling me how poor the image was without offering any critique.
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Don't really see it myself. Think you are being over sensitive and should be thankful of the constructive feedback you did get. At least you didn't get just the "nice shot" comments which are next to useless.
 
Not if they really mean it's a nice shot, and want to acknowledge it. Some people just don't know what else to say, I don't see the harm.
 
Cagey75 said:
Not if they really mean it's a nice shot, and want to acknowledge it. Some people just don't know what else to say, I don't see the harm.
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:bang:

"Nice shot" means you can't be bothered.

"I think this is a nice shot because......." means you have actually looked at it properly and is much more helpful to others, not necessarily the person who took that particular photograph.

Heather
 
Haha. I feel the same way my friend. That's why I don't upload photos here. I see plenty of people get their photos torn to shreds. I enjoy photography too much to have that happen. A photo is awesome even if it's under exposed or the background is messy. Some of my best photos are not what photographers would say are a good photo. Yet people who aren't photographers love them... Basically I prefer to share my work with normal people as they have a similar view to me about photography. All these rules about photography, I don't follow them, maybe as a rule of thumb/guidelines but that's it. Just my opinion and everyone their own. Whatever makes you happy. But there's a lot of cynical people on here. Not everyone mind.
 
ernesto said:
Don't really see it myself. Think you are being over sensitive and should be thankful of the constructive feedback you did get. At least you didn't get just the "nice shot" comments which are next to useless.
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I totally disagree with that. Nice shot means it's a nica shot. It is far from useless. Maybe because it's a positive comment you feel it holds no value? What a load of cods wallop. You don't always have to find fault with an image to critique it so when someone says nice shot that is a positive piece of feedback that someone like that particular photo. And I don't think he or.anyone else is being "over sensitive". When people only ever point out negatives to try to feel superior and lord it over people. There are plenty of people who feel the same on here from what I have seen so it can't be totally wrong.
 
There is nothing to disagree with. Critique has a meaning and a purpose and just saying "nice shoot" is not critique, simple as that.
If you are asking for critique then presumably you want critique and not just pointless comments. If you want pointless comments just put it on Flickr, Facebook etc,.
 
If someone puts nice shot, then why can't the op ask why he/she thinks it's a nice shot & open the discussion further, encouraging the poster to say why it's a nice shot & building his/her confidence to give critique.
Back to the original post i understand were the op coming from with people and their comments,but i think its just their way of saying things I spend a lot of time reading these posts and i do think sometimes people come across as condasending what they say is right it's just the way it comes across.
It must be an issue because if you look in forum discussion there is a similar post on the subject with 80 posts
 
If I say "nice shot', that is an assessment that it gives me pleasure, it is not essential to add further comment. I could also say nicely exposed, good focus, nice bokeh, correct white balance, but I hate this shot, it gives me no pleasure whatsoever.
 
Johnytuono said:
Hi
I enjoy the image for what it is and not really bothered about the technical issues like if the highlights are blown etc etc.
JohnyT
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But are you judging that as a snap, a photograph, or the work of an aspiring pro?

Back to the OP if you want to post OK pictures and have people tell you they're awesome, stick to FB. If you want to improve, stop being so defensive and re-read the comments.
 
Phil V said:
But are you judging that as a snap, a photograph, or the work of an aspiring pro?

Back to the OP if you want to post OK pictures and have people tell you they're awesome, stick to FB. If you want to improve, stop being so defensive and re-read the comments.
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I'm not being defensive, I genuinely value the feedback that I get as it helps me to improve. It's the wording and nitpicking that does my head in. One of the comments in that thread if you read it starts with something along the lines of 'I would offer critique but for you to apply it you need a basic understanding of photography'.

I am always looking to improve and the feedback that I get through this site is very useful, but it's the wording that draws the line between constructive criticism and demoralising comments.
 
Pinpho said:
I'm not being defensive, I genuinely value the feedback that I get as it helps me to improve. It's the wording and nitpicking that does my head in. One of the comments in that thread if you read it starts with something along the lines of 'I would offer critique but for you to apply it you need a basic understanding of photography'.

I am always looking to improve and the feedback that I get through this site is very useful, but it's the wording that draws the line between constructive criticism and demoralising comments.
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I'm afraid I've been through it again, and I can't find the comment you're referring to :thinking:.

It must be the comment that was removed (correctly, we'll assume), thus proving that the forum can look after itself just fine.

And whilst not defending the person who may have posted that, as I said before, you should be prepared to expect a rough ride when you announce to the world you fancy yourself as a professional and produce work of the standard in that thread. Sorry!

And looking again through that thread, you do come across as very defensive.
 
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