Softboxes

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Kris
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I currently have a number of different boxes (gets addictive, right?) but want to get out of my home setup and try renting a little space from time to time, which will mean something a bit bigger than I have at present so that I can do some full length shots.

I am a fan of octo boxes for a key and want to experiment a little. Currently I have a 100cm rotalux but also a Bessel 95cm octo with grid. Providing I have the space, would a 135cm rotalux give me enough size for an adult full length or do I need to save a bit for a 175? Would this size be a little too big for home use?

I really would like to have a play with a deep octa too. I would like a 70, 100 and 135 eventually to cover most needs, I think the 70cm deep octa would be perfect and double up as a quick beauty dish. Interested to hear your thoughts.
 



ALL soft boxes have the same throw whatever the size,
whatever the shape whatever the make.

The only differences are three:
— a larger box will better wrap at close range
— some shapes will have other spot, spread or fall off
— smaller boxes will give smaller catchlights.

So, any soft box of given shape but different size will differ
only in the wrap. The bigger, the better the wrap. A smaller
soft box at ten feet will cover from head to toe but a bigger
one will wrap a bit more at the same distance and much bet-
ter at three feet!
 
I do get all of that for sure especially with distance and throw, but how much difference between a 100cm box and 135cm, tight in close with your average adult? Is there much in it?
 
how much difference between a 100cm box and 135cm, tight in close with your average adult?



The same Kris, it will be the same…
Here, just the wrap will change and in term of wrap,
I have chosen steps increments of 1:2 as a minimum
as 1:1.35 is not a great difference in wrap a the same

distance.

My largest is 3 meters, than 1.5m octo.
 
I've a 120 octa, and if I had space I'd want something bigger for full length people, maybe a 150.

Also consider strip boxes, I think you can do more with them

I have bought the small strip box this month to have a play with. I do have a large lencarta one which I rarely use.
 



ALL soft boxes have the same throw whatever the size,
whatever the shape whatever the make.

The only differences are three:
— a larger box will better wrap at close range
— some shapes will have other spot, spread or fall off
— smaller boxes will give smaller catchlights.

So, any soft box of given shape but different size will differ
only in the wrap. The bigger, the better the wrap. A smaller
soft box at ten feet will cover from head to toe but a bigger
one will wrap a bit more at the same distance and much bet-
ter at three feet!
Not really accurate, although the innacuracies that I see may be down to nothing more than language.

I interpret "Wrap" to mean "Wraparound". Wraparound is not entirely dependent on size, but is dependent on relative size, e.g. a small softbox can produce a wraparound effect on a small subject such as an orange, but a big one is needed for a large subject, assuming that the same effect is required.
Obviously, any type of light source will illuminate the part of the subject that it points at, but if the light source is small then the light will be stopped by anything that it hits that's sticking out - a nose, cheekbones etc - and this light blockage causes shadow.
Wraparound occurs when different parts of the subject are illuminated by different parts of the light source, e.g. the nose and other parts of the subject may be lit by the centre of the softbox, but light from the edge areas will light areas that would otherwise be in shadow simply because the light is coming from different places.
The lighting intensity will not be even because of the effects of the inverse square law, for example with a large softbox, placed at a distance of 1m from the subject, some of the light will only be travelling 1m, other light (from the edge areas) may be travelling 3m so the parts of the subject that are 3m from the light will receive a lot less light.
Moving the softbox further away will produce a very different type of lighting because the ratio of light fall off will be very different, i.e. if the light from the nearest point is now travelling 3m, the light from the edges is now travelling 5m so the fall off of light will be much less apparent.

So, to get a more rapid fall off of light, regardless of softbox size, simply place the softbox closer. In fact, because of practical difficulties, quite often a smaller softbox can be a lot better than a larger one because it simply isn't possible for a larger one to be used very close to the subject - of course, all this assumes that soft light, and wraparound light, is good and that hard light is bad, which is a very big assumption and it is really a beginner assumption - beginners who, up to now, have only shot with tiny light modifiers then find themselves with a studio flash and a fairly big softbox and they light the soft light that this can produce and from that point onwards they want bigger and bigger softboxes:) - until they progress to the point where they find that hard light is the right approach for some subjects.

I'm the first to admit that although life can be a lot easier with a wide choice of softboxes (and other light shapers), up to a point the people who have a deep understanding of how light actually works can use this knowledge to limit the range of sizes and shapes that they need.

As for whether or not really large sofboxes are actually needed, this can depend on the style of the photographer. For example, we have a 140 x 27cm strip softbox, I use it all the time to create rim lighting, including full length. In theory it isn't long enough for that but simply moving it a m or so away spreads the light perfectly, but of course at that distance, partly because it is behind as well as at the side of the subject, it just produces a fairly hard strip of light - which is what I want. But, if I wanted to photography someone who is 2m tall and wanted the softbox to be really close, then to get the same effect with that person that I can (if I want to) get with a smaller model, I would need to use a larger strip softbox, and we now have one that is 2m long. Frankly, so far I've only played with it and I may never actually need it, for the type of shots that I personally like to create - other people may find it indispensable.

Another potential problem with large sofboxes is space, although this comment doesn't really apply to our new strip softbox because it is typically used vertically and almost touching the ground - big softboxes (or at least the ones that work) are deep, they need to be, and they take up a lot of space, which matters when the space is limited. Typically, they are used high, and limited ceiling height makes them unsuitable for home or garage use, unless the subject is seated - I've lost count of the number of people who have bought 1.5m octa softboxes without thinking it through, only to find that when it's touching the ceiling the centre of the softbox is below the face...

Sometimes though, the carefully crafted and well thought out lighting arrangements that we all like to use just aren't practicable, and when this happens it can be a good idea to use a larger softbox from further away. And they same thing applies to other types of light shaper. For example, we now have 60cm folding beauty dishes (which, when a diffuser is fitted, become softboxes) and in a perfect world, this is what I would normally used for glamour portraits of the right model - but it only produces the right result in perfect situations, and when photographing a model who is constantly moving, and flirting to camera, a larger one allows a lot more flexibility - but again there is a downside, because the larger one needs more ceiling height to maintain the correct angle.
 
ALL soft boxes have the same throw whatever the size,
whatever the shape whatever the make.

.. and I interpret 'throw' to be equivalent to falloff. The inverse square law applies only to point sources unless you want to get picky with the maths. In theory collimated beams of light such as from true parabolic deep octas or perhaps Fresnels should give a greater throw i.e. less rapid falloff. Note though that (a) I've never metered one to see whether that's how they behave in real life and (b) as soon as you put the front diffuser on you'll probably just have a softbox with an uneven spread.

fwiw I researched a fair few different parabolic designs; the Elinchrom deep octa was one of a very small number which is genuinely parabolic and puts the light source at the (correct) focus of the parabola.
 
Also - as you have a number of boxes already - try doubling them up to make one big one. For example - here's Mr Softbox himself - Joel Grimes using 2 stacked side by side to make a really long one:-
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzePNCjpF5Q


Skip over the waffle to 4:30
Interesting.. when I've wanted to do similar I've just pointed a single light at a white wall or v flats, no need for multiple jumbo softboxes and a lot more space efficient though not quite the same results.
 
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If you have a Rotalux 100 and a Bessel 95cm but want to try a DO 70, wouldn't it make more sense to sell the Rotalux 100, get a DO 70 and an Indirect 150?

That way you still have the Bessel in that size if you ever need it but now you've got distinctly different options at the small and large sizes. I'm not sure how well the Indirect performs compared to the 135cm as I only had one for a short time and I've never used the 135cm but it seemed good.
 
I currently have a number of different boxes (gets addictive, right?) but want to get out of my home setup and try renting a little space from time to time, which will mean something a bit bigger than I have at present so that I can do some full length shots.

I am a fan of octo boxes for a key and want to experiment a little. Currently I have a 100cm rotalux but also a Bessel 95cm octo with grid. Providing I have the space, would a 135cm rotalux give me enough size for an adult full length or do I need to save a bit for a 175? Would this size be a little too big for home use?

I really would like to have a play with a deep octa too. I would like a 70, 100 and 135 eventually to cover most needs, I think the 70cm deep octa would be perfect and double up as a quick beauty dish. Interested to hear your thoughts.

You can light any size subject with any light, just by moving it back so the beam spreads sufficiently. But as always, it's important to understand how light works and how moving things around effects quite a few things.

Say you're shooting a single person with a 100cm softbox, above the eye-line at maybe at 1.0m. The light will be very soft, and there will be noticeable inverse square law fall-off between the face and waist, but nothing too serious for a top-half portrait. ISL fall-off will also noticeably darken the background further behind. However, if you want full-length, ISL fall-off will be severe at ground level. By moving the light back to maybe 3m (this is where you need a high ceiling) ISL fall-off will be dramatically reduced as the light will be more or less the same distance from head to toe, and the background will be brighter.

But, the relative size of the softbox will also be much smaller and the light harder, one-third the effective diameter (diameter/width is the key factor in determining softness and wraparound) and the brightness reduced by roughly 3 stops*. There are other important factors too - the environment. If you're shooting against a white background, moving the light back will increase spill and the background will become a huge reflector and a lot of that spilled light will be bounced back, softening the shadows and on a full-length background, light bounced up from the floor will pretty much compensate for any ISL fall-off. If there are light-toned walls nearby and a white ceiling above, they will have an additional softening effect. The net result may not be dissimilar to the waist-up shot, or depending on the environmental factors, a modest increase in the size of the softbox could do the trick. Switch to a black background and a bigger studio with high ceiling and a whole new set of environmental factors will change things dramatically.

*In a studio, with no significant ambient light, you can increase the effective power of the flash by raising ISO. One stop higher ISO doubles the power, 400Ws becomes 800ws, another stop takes it to 1600Ws equivalent in exposure terms. Modern cameras can handle this with no significant impact to image quality :thumbs:

ps Stacking softboxes is a great technique. I use them side by side for larger groups, and one above the other for full-length (using Manfrotto SuperClamps to attach to one stand). I have experimented with four in a huge square, and that works well too.
 
I interpret 'throw' to be equivalent to falloff


No interpretation needed, throw is throw and has
nothing to do with fall off… Kris understood that
easily.
 
If you have a Rotalux 100 and a Bessel 95cm but want to try a DO 70, wouldn't it make more sense to sell the Rotalux 100, get a DO 70 and an Indirect 150?

That way you still have the Bessel in that size if you ever need it but now you've got distinctly different options at the small and large sizes. I'm not sure how well the Indirect performs compared to the 135cm as I only had one for a short time and I've never used the 135cm but it seemed good.

I was leaning towards this idea Simon.

Thanks for the info all, I shall digest later when I have a little more time.
 
Not really accurate


It was accurate but, granted, not complete.

I'm not a good typist, translator, and do not want
to put anybody to sleep neither.

I don't mind your contribution but please refrain to
refer to me or my own contribution any way.
 
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You can light any size subject with any light, just by moving it back so the beam spreads sufficiently. But as always, it's important to understand how light works and how moving things around effects quite a few things.

Say you're shooting a single person with a 100cm softbox, above the eye-line at maybe at 1.0m. The light will be very soft, and there will be noticeable inverse square law fall-off between the face and waist, but nothing too serious for a top-half portrait. ISL fall-off will also noticeably darken the background further behind. However, if you want full-length, ISL fall-off will be severe at ground level. By moving the light back to maybe 3m (this is where you need a high ceiling) ISL fall-off will be dramatically reduced as the light will be more or less the same distance from head to toe, and the background will be brighter.

But, the relative size of the softbox will also be much smaller and the light harder, one-third the effective diameter (diameter/width is the key factor in determining softness and wraparound) and the brightness reduced by roughly 3 stops*. There are other important factors too - the environment. If you're shooting against a white background, moving the light back will increase spill and the background will become a huge reflector and a lot of that spilled light will be bounced back, softening the shadows and on a full-length background, light bounced up from the floor will pretty much compensate for any ISL fall-off. If there are light-toned walls nearby and a white ceiling above, they will have an additional softening effect. The net result may not be dissimilar to the waist-up shot, or depending on the environmental factors, a modest increase in the size of the softbox could do the trick. Switch to a black background and a bigger studio with high ceiling and a whole new set of environmental factors will change things dramatically.

*In a studio, with no significant ambient light, you can increase the effective power of the flash by raising ISO. One stop higher ISO doubles the power, 400Ws becomes 800ws, another stop takes it to 1600Ws equivalent in exposure terms. Modern cameras can handle this with no significant impact to image quality (y)

ps Stacking softboxes is a great technique. I use them side by side for larger groups, and one above the other for full-length (using Manfrotto SuperClamps to attach to one stand). I have experimented with four in a huge square, and that works well too.

Thanks for your take Garry & Richard. My experience is limited to small 'home' environments and so whilst I have knowledge of the principles, I can't say that I have had the room to experiment, which I am keen to remedy. It's the ISL falloff with height limitations at home that's the killer for full length shots.

I do think I have two needless boxes the same size and for the majority of what I do (one or two people) a 70 DO is something I wish to explore, Simon's idea makes sense.
 
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Personally, I'd say get the biggest you can fit and fill... you can always make it smaller (or add a grid).

The size vs distance thing is a bit of a fallacy (I wrote a post about it here somewhere). If you move a softbox closer in order to increase it's size, you *also* necessarily increase the falloff. You need to separate size and distance in order to have individual control of both aspects (wrap/falloff).
 
.. and I interpret 'throw' to be equivalent to falloff.
Throw is "area of coverage..."
i.e. all rectangular softboxes will throw the same sized rectangular area of light when used from a given distance. And other than differences in evenness of fill/diffusion, they will have the same gradation/edge characteristics as well.
 
This is a subject that we can talk about for ever, and that can go round and round in circles.

To summarise my own thoughts on the subject - several of which have also been expressed by others -
1. Softboxes can be used in very creative ways, as well as in very bland ways
2. They can be used very simply, or with great care
3. There can be enormous differences in the type of the light they produce, depending on exactly how they are used
4. They can be stacked together to make them bigger, or masked to make them smaller
5. There can be enormous differences in the quality of the light they produce, depending on the make and design, but any softbox of any given size will follow the same law of physics at any given distance - the differences will be limited to the colour of the light, to light spill, to the quality of diffusion and similar.
6. Where other light sources are also present, or where the shooting space reflects light from walls, ceiling etc, the uncontrolled light that doesn't come directly from the softbox will make it difficult to use the full potential of the softbox.
7. Really big softboxes aren't ideal for really small spaces.
8. Given enough knowledge of the physics of light, it's very possible to manage with less gear.



It was accurate but, granted, not complete.

I'm not a good typist, translator, and do not want
to put anybody to sleep neither.

I don't mind your contribution but please refrain to
refer to me or my own contribution any way.
No, I shall continue to ignore that request. You don't get to decide who posts on this forum, neither do you get to decide on what they post, that decision is entirely in the hands of the forum admins, so if you don't like me posting please feel free to click on the "Report" button, that's what it's for.
There is also an "ignore" button, so if you don't want to read what I write, please feel free to set me to ignore, but don't tell me to shut up and keep out of your public conversation, which is exactly what the radio operator of the Titanic said to another ship that was racing to help them - it didn't make sense 104 years ago, and some things just never change.
 
Giving it a little thought over night, I think @simonbarker's idea of a 70 DO and a 150 of some description is the best option. I won't use the large one quite so much and so I note the lencarta is still at half price so probably go with that as a sensible plan.
 


It was accurate but, granted, not complete.

I'm not a good typist, translator, and do not want
to put anybody to sleep neither.

I don't mind your contribution but please refrain to
refer to me or my own contribution any way.


That is called a discussion but as we are not all sat in the same room the only way to provide continuity is to quote, to lose that would lose a lot in how people are able to understand what is being said. If you want to stop people quoting you then you have to stop posting and without people posting we would not have a forum, so which would you rather have? Interesting discussion or no forum?

Mike
 
so which would you rather have?



There is, in life, rarely a tighter community than a
classroom. Nonetheless, one may not get along
with some others in the group and would preferably
avoid contact.
 



There is, in life, rarely a tighter community than a
classroom. Nonetheless, one may not get along
with some others in the group and would preferably
avoid contact.

That is not one of the possible answers or is there some reason that we should accept your unsubstantiated opinion over anybody elses?

Mike
 
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