So you want a puppy !!!

[Gremlin]

Just watched http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36302556

For anyone thinking of getting a puppy it really is worth watching on catch up.
I already knew this happened but not how big some of the puppy farms are.

Supply and demand is the problem, people decide they want a puppy of a certain breed and just aren't prepared
to wait for a well bred healthy puppy that could actually cost less then those from the puppy farms.
To actually charge and get £600 for a designer cross breed (puggle) is appalling, these are mongrels and should be
sold as such.

Even though I knew about this I still found it upsetting and the last couple of minutes just so sad

 

[Cobra]

To actually charge and get £600 for a designer cross breed (puggle) is appalling, these are mongrels and should be
sold as such.

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to agree with you (again) on this.

And as you probably know some of these so called ( mini) designer breeds fetch more than that.
Its a disgrace, but while there is a market, it'll keep happening

 

[Gremlin]

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to agree with you (again) on this.

And as you probably know some of these so called ( mini) designer breeds fetch more than that.
Its a disgrace, but while there is a market, it'll keep happening

Yep it will and with the pedigrees too, many with severe hereditary problems because of the
way they are bred, costing the new owners a fortune.
This new law requiring all puppies to be microchipped won't work either because the puppy farmers
won't comply
It's worth watching if you haven't already, quite heartbreaking

 

[Cobra]

This new law requiring all puppies to be microchipped won't work either because the puppy farmers
won't comply

And of course, retrospective chipping will only be done by responsible owners too.

 

[viv1969]

I agree. These vile puppy farms only exist because people continue to purchase from them to get their "ideal" dog.
I've had some lovely crossbreds in my time, and a couple of true mongrels (both the crosses and mongrels being the accidental result of two naughty pooches secretly "meeting"), but the current fashion for designer crosses is definitely getting out of hand.

 

[boyfalldown]

Supply and demand is the problem, people decide they want a puppy of a certain breed and just aren't prepared
to wait for a well bred healthy puppy that could actually cost less then those from the puppy farms.
To actually charge and get £600 for a designer cross breed (puggle) is appalling, these are mongrels and should be
sold as such.

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to agree with you (again) on this.

And as you probably know some of these so called ( mini) designer breeds fetch more than that.
Its a disgrace, but while there is a market, it'll keep happening

I have less of a problem with those type of crosses. While they are mongrels, atleast they're honestly and openly sold as such. I also think with some breeds (the Pug, and King Charles Spaniel being a couple of examples) then creating crosses is the only way to restore any sort of health)

Its a minefield buying any dog, and unless you're prepared to put in a lot of research on an individual litter the risk of getting badly stung by less then scrupulous breeders is pretty high. I'm seeing a friend later who's pedigree dog has some very serious genetic issues as a result of a less then honest stud dog owner.

 

[Graham W]

There are plenty of dogs looking for homes, why buy from a breeder unless it's some sort of vanity project.

 

[andyscott]

Cross breeds of Dogs is becoming the must have. Just like a kid with a stupid name, or a stupid spelling of a correct name.

My last puppy was bought from someone that wanted to verify me and my plans, where I lived etc. He was a decent breeder.

Like everything else in life, it is easy to make money by bending/breaking the law. There is no deterrent to this abhorrent crime.

 

[Tringa]

Couldn't agree more with the views above.

My last puppy was bought from someone that wanted to verify me and my plans, where I lived etc.

Very similar with the dog we got about 18 months ago. It was from http://www.terrierrescue.co.uk/ and we had lots of conversations with them. They want to know the setup at home, number of people, children or not, other pets, security of the garden etc.

Dave

 

[boyfalldown]

There are plenty of dogs looking for homes, why buy from a breeder unless it's some sort of vanity project.

Because you'd like to understand what you're getting and a reputable breeder will support through the remainder of the dogs life after its left them

 

[camerassassin]

Many many years ago , we bought our first dog - a boxer , from a local breeder.

We phoned them [ they were recommended to us ] and went to see them . They insisted that we were to take our young daughter with us so we could check if child and dog would be OK together.

There were 4 for us to choose from all between the ages of 12 months to 18 months - all bred by them .

I was a little disturbed when told to park small child on the floor and let each dog approach her without us saying anything. All these dogs had been weaned and then brought into the breeder's house and kept with them as house dogs with a view to 1 or 2 being kept as stud dogs.

One dog approached our little one - sniffed at her and walked away - he was not interested , 2 others didn't even do that The 4th approached her - sniffed at her and sat she then patted him [ she'd never mixed with dogs before ] . The dog was called off by the breeder and daughter #1 was given a titbit and told to let the dog take it from her - she looked at this bit of meat on her hand - didn't attempt to put it to her mouth [ thankfully ] and the dog was released by the breeder - he went over and sat beside her , she held out her hand and he very very gently took the tit bit off .

It was obvious - that was our dog.

He was a lovely dog - kept watch over her, and her young sister when the time came , I could leave him in the garden with the pram + baby and know they were safe . That dog learned to obey hand signals - if out off the lead I never had to call him other than just to catch his attention if he was playing - thereafter the recall was a signal and he came straight back.

He was a thief I remember losing sirloin steaks to him - but that's another story - full of low cunning he was

 

[sphexx]

You can't redefine words to what you think they mean. A mongrel is a dog of unknown mixed breeding whereas a cross breed has a pedigree, that is a known ancestor line.
I thought the two programmes were better than the average tv dog programmes were very informative. Dogs Trust rescue dogs were also covered.

 

[Gremlin]

You can't redefine words to what you think they mean. A mongrel is a dog of unknown mixed breeding whereas a cross breed has a pedigree, that is a known ancestor line.
I thought the two programmes were better than the average tv dog programmes were very informative. Dogs Trust rescue dogs were also covered.

To my knowledge a dog of 2 known breed parents was always a first cross, never had a designer name as they do now to attract unsuspecting
owners.
I honestly thought this was a Panorama one off, was there another in the series that I have missed? Dog Trust weren't mentioned,
as far as I am aware they don't breed dogs, there policy is to stop them doing exactly that.

I agree. These vile puppy farms only exist because people continue to purchase from them to get their "ideal" dog.
I've had some lovely crossbreds in my time, and a couple of true mongrels (both the crosses and mongrels being the accidental result of two naughty pooches secretly "meeting"), but the current fashion for designer crosses is definitely getting out of hand.

They also exist for those that see a breed on TV they want now without waiting for a decent litter to be born, hence pups being bred in the conditions shown.
Yes I know buying a pedigiree registered dog is also fraught with pitfalls, but a good breed will vet the prospective new owners as they did with @camerassassin
and be there for the life of the dog should you have problems, similar to when you get a dog from rescue, this is why these places and the puppy sellers exist,
turn up with your money and walk away with a puppy, no questions asked,

 

[boyfalldown]

I honestly thought this was a Panorama one off, was there another in the series that I have missed? Dog Trust weren't mentioned,

There were two separate programs last night. The panorama one. There has also been a two parter called 'How to chose a puppy' on BBC 2 as well.

 

[viv1969]

There were two separate programs last night. The panorama one. There has also been a two parter called 'How to chose a puppy' on BBC 2 as well.

Yeah I saw the "Choose the right puppy for you" on the menu whilst flicking through last night.

 

[Gremlin]

There were two separate programs last night. The panorama one. There has also been a two parter called 'How to chose a puppy' on BBC 2 as well.

Seen that, but I was actually highlighting the puppy farming industry and the way dogs are kept for supply and demand, as per the Panorama Program

 

[srichards]

I think there was a BBC Watchdog feature on a particular scuzzy puppy farm.

 

[sphexx]

Seen that, but I was actually highlighting the puppy farming industry and the way dogs are kept for supply and demand, as per the Panorama Program

Sorry! I didn't know there was a Panorama program and leapt to the conclusion you were referring to the puppy choosing program.
I should have clicked on your link but in my defence your thread title is very similar to the other program title.

 

[Cobra]

I have less of a problem with those type of crosses. While they are mongrels, atleast they're honestly and openly sold as such.

I have no problem with X-breeds either, its when they are given designer names and a huge price hike.
Not so long ago, one of these "accidents" would fetch half the price of either parent, now they seem to fetch double.

A mongrel is a dog of unknown mixed breeding whereas a cross breed has a pedigree, that is a known ancestor line.

Indeed in the true meaning of the words, but "pedigree" these days seems to mean a dog of higher standing, and another excuse for a price hike.
An F1 x is hardly pedigree, ( in today's meaning) as it won't breed true.
ie two Cocker-poo's will not throw more cocker poo's.

 

[Mr Bump]

yeah "pets" have realy descended into consumables all round now adays.

 

[sphexx]

>< snipped

Indeed in the true meaning of the words, but "pedigree" these days seems to mean a dog of higher standing, and another excuse for a price hike.
An F1 x is hardly pedigree, ( in today's meaning) as it won't breed true.
ie two Cocker-poo's will not throw more cocker poo's.

There are several things mixed up here. When people refer to Pedigree dogs I know they usually mean breeds recognised by the Kennel Club and similar. But the pedigree after all is a list of known ancestors and relatives so I would claim a cross breed has as much of a pedigree as any single breed. I would go further and say that many working terriers, for instance, are pedigree dogs - as distinct from mongrels or cross breeds - as I know that in many cases they have been careful line bred and their breeders are well aware of their pedigree.
As for breeding true I agree except just to mention that all dogs breed true as they are of the same species ;-)

 

[LongLensPhotography]

A mongrel dog is probably likely to be healthier and require less vet bills due to better / less in-bred genetics and they can be just as cute and friendly. You make your pick.

 

[Cobra]

But the pedigree after all is a list of known ancestors and relatives

Assuming that the parents had a "pedigree" to start with,
If its just a couple of pets thrown together for a quick buck then all that is known is the parents.
Hardly pedigree, just "known parents"

As for breeding true I agree except just to mention that all dogs breed true as they are of the same species ;-)

Yes but the point I was making was that 2 cockapoo's ( for example) won't breed a litter of cockerpoo's
The vast majority will throw back to look like either grand parent. although they will be carrying the hybrid genes as well.

 

[CaveDweller]

Just watched http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36302556

For anyone thinking of getting a puppy it really is worth watching on catch up.
I already knew this happened but not how big some of the puppy farms are.

Supply and demand is the problem, people decide they want a puppy of a certain breed and just aren't prepared
to wait for a well bred healthy puppy that could actually cost less then those from the puppy farms.
To actually charge and get £600 for a designer cross breed (puggle) is appalling, these are mongrels and should be
sold as such.

Even though I knew about this I still found it upsetting and the last couple of minutes just so sad

I've just got a new puppy a few weeks ago. didn't get him from a breeder as such, but from a family friends farm who breed purely to keep the blood lines going of their hard working and healthy dogs. There's nothing I can't stand more than puppy farms and even got one busted myself, although they never found the people running it

Also another pet hate (no pun intended lol) is the way people name mongrels now, like labradoodle for example, then they feel the urge to charge triple the amount of a pure breed. I have nothing against mongrels, it's just the way people make them seem like fashion accessories by charging obscure amounts for a fancy name. "hello, I'm interested in your Colliepood, how much?", "well, your average collie pup goes for about 500 and a poodle 700, that will be 1200 please" lol

 

[Gremlin]

There are several things mixed up here. When people refer to Pedigree dogs I know they usually mean breeds recognised by the Kennel Club and similar. But the pedigree after all is a list of known ancestors and relatives so I would claim a cross breed has as much of a pedigree as any single breed.

Ok so taking this at face value you are saying that those that breed the so called designer dogs of known ancestry would be ok advertising them as pedigree cockapoos etc. thus
making them even more valuable ?

would go further and say that many working terriers, for instance, are pedigree dogs - as distinct from mongrels or cross breeds - as I know that in many cases they have been careful line bred and their breeders are well aware of their pedigree.
As for breeding true I agree except just to mention that all dogs breed true as they are of the same species ;-)

I do understand what you are saying and trust me I am no great lover of the KC and what they are doing. Border Collies no longer exist unless they are registered with the
KC they are now Working Sheep dogs . :banghead: Jack Russells are mongrels according to some, even though they have been about for years, the only true ones are those
awful leggy Parson Russell things :banghead: I could go on but I upset enough people already
You have lurchers and longdogs bred for work and of course the wonderful pack hounds with lineage going back hundreds of years, all bred for health.

I also have little time for people that breed to win shows with little thought for the health etc of the dog

I did have a quick look at the other programme earlier, I think they missed a great chance with that litter of pups to point out that the breeder was saying she only bred the bitchonce a year WTF it certainly showed with the way she her teats hung so low, poor dog was a money making machine

One tip I always pass on to people buying pups from adverts, just say you are interested in buying one of the pups, don't mention the breed, if they ask which ones
hang up and run, you are talking to a puppy seller not the breeder

 

[Cobra]

trust me I am no great lover of the KC and what they are doing.

So many points raised, and so much agreement, I'd better go lay down for a bit

 

[Gremlin]

So many points raised, and so much agreement, I'd better go lay down for a bit

I broke the snake at last
Warned you not to keep agreeing with me

 

[sphexx]

I did have a quick look at the other programme earlier, I think they missed a great chance with that litter of pups to point out that the breeder was saying she only bred the bitchonce a year WTF it certainly showed with the way she her teats hung so low, poor dog was a money making machin

Yes, but all that was shown in the programme and if they had said anything more on that example the lawyers would have been on them you just can't get everything in two programmes and anyone can think of other things they could have put in but I still think they were a useful and informative pair of programmes and I felt I learned something about dogs+people which I don't find happens very often these days.
Anyway I think we are on the same page - hounds (tick), terriers (tick), lurchers (tick) and don't get me started on The Kennel Club ;-(

 

[Gremlin]

A mongrel dog is probably likely to be healthier and require less vet bills due to better / less in-bred genetics and they can be just as cute and friendly. You make your pick.

Actually they aren't, they are just as likely to inherit any genetic problems the parents have

 

[simon ess]

Actually they aren't, they are just as likely to inherit any genetic problems the parents have

Ah, that's interesting. I also thought they were less likely to have genetic problems.

I've known a few pedigree dogs with problems but never a scruffy mongrel.

That's not to say I think you're wrong or anything. It just challenges my preconceptions.

 

[Gremlin]

Ah, that's interesting. I also thought they were less likely to have genetic problems.
I've known a few pedigree dogs with problems but never a scruffy mongrel.
That's not to say I think you're wrong or anything. It just challenges my preconceptions.

Possibly not so common with the now rarer indiscriminate mongrels, but yes in the designer crosses sometime with more then 2 breeds listed
they can and do inherit the genetic problems of any lineage.
This can also be true of a scruffy mongrel that has it's way with a purebred, any pups would inherit problems in the pure breed.
In nondescript mongrels there are hopefully less of the inbred problems but as with every living thing, if both parents
are carriers it will surface regardless.
I'm sure @Cobra is better qualified them me to expain it
The great thing is, puppy farmers aren't yet mass breeding mongrels, well lets face it there wouldn't be much profit it them
That said I don't believe in giving puppies or kittens away free, it makes them even more disposable to people who get them on a whim

 

[simon ess]

Thanks for that.

The only thing I know for sure is that when I retire I shall go round local rescue centres looking for a very scruffy, bright eyed mongrel.

His name is Harry.

 

[Nostromo]

We bought our black lab from a family that had bred their female (pedigree) with a friends (non pedigree) male. This means that our dog is a non pedigree (but still a pure breed), which is fine by me, it also meant she didn't cost anything like some I'd see whilst looking. I think she was £250, 7yrs ago.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

Actually they aren't, they are just as likely to inherit any genetic problems the parents have

I meant a true mongrel... I could see how 1st gen x-breed could be about same as the "pure breed".

 

[Gremlin]

I meant a true mongrel... I could see how 1st gen x-breed could be about same as the "pure breed".

Thankfully in this area outright mongrels seem to be fairly rare, most of the crosses are distinguishable as to type of parent.
I suppose it's down the fact that there are less dogs wandering the streets and people do tend to have them neutured, not
forgetting as I said outright mongrels are of no value to the puppy farmers

 

[Cobra]

I'm sure @Cobra is better qualified them me to expain it

Without going into the pro's and cons of recessive / dominate genes / hybrid vigour and inbreeding / ( and even line breeding, father x daughter or mother x son, depression),
You pretty much covered it, in a nut shell. .

 

[Garry Edwards]

Dogs should be chosen based on their temperament and fitness for purpose, never on their appearance.
For example, if you need to work sheep then you need a Border Collie/Working Sheepdog, if you need a gundog then you need a gundog breed, etc.
Sled dogs such as Huskies, highly active dogs such as Border Collies, Springer Spaniels or any other dog with strong working instincts is very unlikely to make a good pet - but our great public never seem to give a moment's thought to these things, they tend to buy purely on appearance, price and other factors that don't matter.

Unfortunately I no longer have a dog, but when I did, I used to see people in the local parks all the time, with so-called thoroughbred dogs that looked and behaved nothing like the Golden Retrievers, Labradors etc that they were supposed to be. And every now and again a new person would turn up with a Siberian Husky or similar, they weren't capable of managing them and didn't know that their dogs weren't interested in forming relationships with them, and after a while they all either dumped their problem onto a rescue centre or found another mug to sell their dog to.

Both temperament problems and genetic defects are almost entirely due to the Kennel Club, which is concerned only with making money. Whilst puppy farmers may be scum, IMO the KC are just as bad. In reality, every so-called thoroughbred dog is a crossbreed, because AFAIK all breeds have been created by outcrossing.
Whilst there are some first class breeders around who really care about their dogs, many are little better than the puppy farmers, they will happily unload any dog that they can't win with onto the public, even if it's a terrible example of the breed that has multiple problems.

 

[viv1969]

Sled dogs such as Huskies, highly active dogs such as Border Collies, Springer Spaniels or any other dog with strong working instincts is very unlikely to make a good pet .

Oddly then, I can think of folk (different households), who have each of those breeds, and they are fantastic pets, even the Malamutes. (OK, not Huskies)
I myself have had Border Collies (2) and they were brilliant pets. great house / garden dogs. Just had to make sure they were exercised and mentally stimulated sufficiently that's all.
I'll grant that some breeds require more input to form a bond, but I don't believe those breeds mentioned don't make goods pets.

 

[Garry Edwards]

Oddly then, I can think of folk (different households), who have each of those breeds, and they are fantastic pets, even the Malamutes. (OK, not Huskies)
I myself have had Border Collies (2) and they were brilliant pets. great house / garden dogs. Just had to make sure they were exercised and mentally stimulated sufficiently that's all.
I'll grant that some breeds require more input to form a bond, but I don't believe those breeds mentioned don't make goods pets.

Possibly, there are always exceptions to every rule.
But a lot of the problems arise when people don't understand the exercise/motivation needs of specific breeds, and either can't or won't give them what they need.
Also, a lot of the poor breeding that goes on results in dogs that don't have the typical characteristics of their breed, and these dogs are therefore less unsuitable as pets.

 

[boyfalldown]

Possibly, there are always exceptions to every rule.

Ruth @viv1969 is absolutely right. I can think of no end of people keeping working dogs which are fantastic pets.To suggest that simply because a dog has a strong working instinct it won't make a good pet is simply wrong. And for every dog owner who has made a bad decision based on the factors you mention I can show you several who've made the right decision based on good solid research of their chosen breed