So Tottenham burns!

[ding76uk]

Thing is, Laudrup, these idiots that have been rioting KNOW the difference between right and wrong. Why should it be up to others to have to 'engage' them?

Because someone has to be the bigger and better man.

We go out there and we mend and we build, because we are better than those who were brutal to us. THAT is how this works.

 

[Catdaddy]

You had a see-saw? You were lucky ( in 4 Yorkshireman voice)

Aye, lad!

 

[Chris Primadona]

You had a see-saw? You were lucky ( in 4 Yorkshireman voice)

Lucky indeed, we just stood opposite each other jumping at different times to make it look like we had a see-saw...

 

[ding76uk]

No generalisation - The very reason I said "people" and not young people. I'm taking about the people who are blatantly rioting/looting, the ones we are seeing/have seen before our very eyes.

What would you call them?

What you should recognise them as, a minority.

 

[malo50]

Lucky indeed, we just stood opposite each other jumping at different times to make it look like we had a see-saw...

LMFAO

 

[daizylindsay]

What you should recognise them as, a minority.

Don't tell me what I should think! I'm just giving an opinion!

They are obviously a pretty big minority to have caused this much bl**dy trouble!

 

[Defiance]

Jeez, I go away for a while...come back and not only is the country rioting, so is TP from the looks for it !!

 

[Lindsay D]

For every child you see looting there are hundreds in the same areas at home afraid to go out.

That's one of the saddening aspects of this - the scum who are looting and assaulting are harming their own communites, the law-abiding innocents who want no part in it.

 

[malo50]

What you should recognise them as, a minority.

A minority whose actions have caused a hell of a lot of damage, financially and culturally to their communities.

 

[ding76uk]

Don't tell me what I should think! I'm just giving an opinion!

They are obviously a pretty big minority to have caused this much bl**dy trouble!

Really are you kidding? Count the number of rioters verses the people who live in the areas where the riots have taken place. It is not telling you what to think it is a mathematical fact!

 

[Matt]

Based on what calculations?

based on the fact that when i earned 25k i didnt get any rent or rates rebate with 2 kids :shrug:

if you were better off working, then why are the government trying to change the system to reward working?

 

[ding76uk]

A minority whose actions have caused a hell of a lot of damage, financially and culturally to their communities.

Agreed and they should be dealt with. But we must be careful to not tar everyone with the same brush!

There are many more young youths, who possibly wear hoods, living in that area, who have been safe at home not rioting looked after by their parents (even some on benefits) who could easily become tarred as being Ferral scum, when in reality they are decent moral human beings.

 

[Catdaddy]

Because someone has to be the bigger and better man.

We go out there and we mend and we build, because we are better than those who were brutal to us. THAT is how this works.

Sorry, but I agree with Matty.

Some of my own teachers when I was at school were so damn strict... I might not have liked it at the time, but they never took any crap from anyone. And God help you if you played them up...

But as we mature and grow up, it's so easy to see what they were doing. And, unlike the manner of their more liberal colleagues, I respect everything that they did. Because not only did you pay attention to what they were teaching, they helped to instill in me a decent set of morals and values. And what's more, they would have had the back up of my parents too.

 

[daizylindsay]

Agreed and they should be dealt with. But we must be careful to not tar everyone with the same brush!

There are many more young youths, who wear hoods living in that area, who have been safe at home not rioting looked after by their parents (even some on benefits) who could easily become tarred as being Ferral scum, when in reality they are decent moral human beings.

I'm only saying the ones who are ACTUALLY rioting are the problem. Not tarring anybody with any brush!

 

[ding76uk]

based on the fact that when i earned 25k i didnt get any rent or rates rebate with 2 kids :shrug:

if you were better off working, then why are the government trying to change the system to reward working?

To save money. You didn't get rent or rates rebate, but you earned 25K. If you don't earn a wage you get these things. As some on here have found also, you can soon find yourself on the dole with no warning. I am sure those on this forum who have been (or currently are) on benefits will paint a different picture to that of people earning a handsome living from benefits.

 

[ding76uk]

I'm only saying the ones who are ACTUALLY rioting are the problem. Not tarring anybody with any brush!

Sorry that wasn't aimed at you, but a more general comment.

 

[malo50]

Agreed and they should be dealt with. But we must be careful to not tar everyone with the same brush!

There are many more young youths, who possibly wear hoods, living in that area, who have been safe at home not rioting looked after by their parents (even some on benefits) who could easily become tarred as being Ferral scum, when in reality they are decent moral human beings.

Couldn't agree more. Look at the images in the newspapers and there's a wide range of ages, races and occupations been to court. Generalisation is the last refuge of the terminally bigoted.

 

[daizylindsay]

Sorry that wasn't aimed at you, but a more general comment.

Ok. And I'm sorry if I came across as a bit defensive, I'm finding all this very frightening/upsetting!

 

[Splog]

I'm too tired to follow this debate.

Me and my colleagues have worked every hour possible, and are barely able to catch up with a minimum amount of sleep. Even the CID are out patrolling the streets, and I've now picked up my fair share of abuse, knocks and scrapes after trying to restore some order. The support we have received from the public has been fantastic.

This is the mentality of the people we're facing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

Or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuqeQaEatiI&feature=player_embedded

And, even once we've got order back, this mentality will remain. Until people accept that there is a large, feral underclass - with no hope, aspiration or desire to be part of a civilised society - so this will continue.

I really can't understand why those police officers stood there and took the abuse and threats from the black guy in the second video? .... They were ridiculed and abused - Never should anyone have to put up with that!

 

[ding76uk]

Ok. And I'm sorry if I came across as a bit defensive, I'm finding all this very frightening/upsetting!

It's cool, I only have friend living in the affected areas, let alone living their myself.

I also think the police have done an amazing job on the whole. They were undermanned & under resourced and still gave their all.

 

[ding76uk]

They were ridiculed and abused - Never should anyone have to put up with that!

Obviously you've never worked in the education system then

 

[fracster]

And now, apparently, no one should be permitted to get pregnant without the state's permission because it might be "deliberate"

Don`t be so asinine.

 

[Catdaddy]

Obviously you've never worked in the education system then

So the kids need more discipline, perhaps?

Those videos - that second one... I think under any normal circumstances, the police would have had him in the back of a car. But he obviously had the support of the crowd... I hate to think what would have happened if they'd done what they probably wanted to at the time...

But the fact that a firework got let off speaks volumes about the mentality of some people. I think the police have done an outstanding job, in the face of unbelievably tough conditions. I take my hat of to you all

 

[Yves Geza]

“Maybe [being pragmatic] you really mean the wrong colour kid because that is actually what is going to happen in practice.”

You've misunderstood or twisted what I said and I cannot believe nor fathom how I have invited your remark about race/colour in your response - but I find your suggestion well out of order. If kids are roaming the riot-strewn streets then they (and you as a parent if that's the case) will have to accept that they may end up in danger.

Don’t affect outrage, Lindsay. Although you chose to bold the wrong bit of my post, the pragmatic reality is that last night’s rolling news showed an item whereby the police had to rescue three black teenagers from the top deck of a bus where they were being besieged by vigilantes.

Were they rioters and looters? I don't know and neither do you but I'm not calling for gung-ho live ammunition, hang them high, paratroopers or vigilantes with sticks - all of which seem quite popular with Talk Photography members.



Thanks for the warning about my kids though. My 17 year old daughter went to Covent Garden on Monday evening and then came home by public transport. Maybe you knew where the next disturbance was going to occur but I don’t think anyone else did.

Tomorrow evening she intends to go to Enfield with a friend. Should I let them go or should I keep them off the streets?

 

[Laudrup]

So work 16 hours a week on minimum wage with 2 children and receive £334 a week in total, which is more than my 39 hours a week permanent lates getting extra shift pay.

There would be other benefits she would more than likely get too.

If we are dealing with someone who is working and contributing tax to the economy isn't this what we want? Even if it isn't and we take the single mother of two who doesn't work I doubt any, but the most cynical Daily Mail aficionado, see their children as some crude money making device. I have read something like 97% of people with children claim child benefit too, quite a lot of people who don't need it I'd guess.

 

[Urban Grimshaw]

Couldn't agree more. Look at the images in the newspapers and there's a wide range of ages, races and occupations been to court. Generalisation is the last refuge of the terminally bigoted.

I'm surprised by the amount of generalisations and in some instances blatant racism that is arising from the riots. It's a subject that I've been thinking about lately.

Living up north, up until more recent years, I thought racism was almost all but eradicated in the UK. 911 stirred up some tensions with the Asian communities, undoubtedly. And I think many people find some significant cultural differences there too. But aside from that just a few years ago, I was genuinely surprised that racism and segregation existed on such a large scale over here.

And I don't live in London, so I can't comment too much. But I can't help but feel it is fuelled by those who claim to be the victims. Whatever the reason, it's sad. It does appear to be a growing problem rather than a declining one. I do hope we're not heading for the American style of living, where the blacks live on one side of the street, and the whites on the other.

It's quite concerning.

 

[Samphire]

Well as a qualified nurse I DO know about contraception and I also know about vasectomies and steralisation. Now go and get your facts straight.

Then you should know that HE is as responsible as HER.

 

[Splog]

Obviously you've never worked in the education system then

Nope! But if teachers are suffering anything even close to that? then the education system has obviously not done it's job very well! ..... Yes I did see the winky thing at the end of your post

 

[malo50]

If we are dealing with someone who is working and contributing tax to the economy isn't this what we want? Even if it isn't and we take the single mother of two who doesn't work I doubt any, but the most cynical Daily Mail aficionado, see their children as some crude money making device. I have read something like 97% of people with children claim child benefit too, quite a lot of people who don't need it I'd guess.

Could you please answer my question?

 

[Splog]

<snip> Even if it isn't and we take the single mother of two who doesn't work I doubt any, but the most cynical Daily Mail aficionado, see their children as some crude money making device. <snip>.

Are you actually serious? .... Of course people see having kids in the UK as a money making device! What about all those who just arrive here to have their kid and then go back to wherever? All babies born here are entitled to child allowance wherever they live. How much money do you think is sent to Asia and the rest of the world in benefits? ...... Certainly doesn't help anyone here in the UK and what about the points system for added benefits such as getting housing etc? :shake:

 

[fracster]

Obviously you've never worked in the education system then

Thank God no, that is your domain and we are seeing the results of your hard working endevours.

 

[Garry Edwards]

I'm surprised by the amount of generalisations and in some instances blatant racism that is arising from the riots. It's a subject that I've been thinking about lately.

Living up north, up until more recent years, I thought racism was almost all but eradicated in the UK. 911 stirred up some tensions with the Asian communities, undoubtedly. And I think many people find some significant cultural differences there too. But aside from that just a few years ago, I was genuinely surprised that racism and segregation existed on such a large scale over here.

And I don't live in London, so I can't comment too much. But I can't help but feel it is fuelled by those who claim to be the victims. Whatever the reason, it's sad. It does appear to be a growing problem rather than a declining one. I do hope we're not heading for the American style of living, where the blacks live on one side of the street, and the whites on the other.

It's quite concerning.

It seems to me that the media are doing their bit to skew things here
The footage shown on TV seems to show mostly the very young thieves and rioters, and most of them are black or asian. But the reality is that the thieves and rioters are mainly teenagers and young adults, with a fair few that are older, and that they come from all races and a wide range of backgrounds. In fact, the only thing that most of them seem to have in common is their greed and criminal intent.

I hope I've got it wrong, but it seems to me that the media have their own, false agenda here, condemning racism with one hand and promoting it with the other

 

[Lindsay D]

Don&#8217;t affect outrage, Lindsay. Although you chose to bold the wrong bit of my post, the pragmatic reality is that last night&#8217;s rolling news showed an item whereby the police had to rescue three black teenagers from the top deck of a bus where they were being besieged by vigilantes.

Were they rioters and looters? I don't know and neither do you but I'm not calling for gung-ho live ammunition, hang them high, paratroopers or vigilantes with sticks - all of which seem quite popular with Talk Photography members.



Thanks for the warning about my kids though. My 17 year old daughter went to Covent Garden on Monday evening and then came home by public transport. Maybe you knew where the next disturbance was going to occur but I don&#8217;t think anyone else did.

Tomorrow evening she intends to go to Enfield with a friend. Should I let them go or should I keep them off the streets?

Johnathan, I don't understand how I've provoked this from you. Never have I (pragmatically or otherwise) given any impression, anywhere, that I am speaking of black youths, and frankly I am shocked if you're suggesting I (or others here) would condone vigilante attacks on innocent people, of any age or colour. The point that was being made is that if anybody is attacked by rioters or looters then it's understandable that they should want to defend themselves and their property if seriously threatened. Would you not feel the same? Please stop twisting what's being said. Edit: the reality is that a great many people have have their property destroyed by a range of looters and thieves, it's understandable the victims are feeling aggrieved, particularly as the police thus far have not been effective enough. The consequences for the communities where the criminal groups hail from will be unpleasant too, given they're mostly law-abiding folk who don't need this ***** either, and who'll no doubt have a new level of mistrust to contend with thanks to the thugs who've caused this and who have now obviated whatever community relations previously existed. I think that exemplifies the treatment of the girls you mention - vigilante behaviour like that is completely unacceptable.

How can I answer your last question. I hope you and your daughters stay safe.

 

[Laudrup]

and here is one of the problems, they dont WANT to work. they go and stare at boards full of jobs at the job center and then say there are no jobs. if you wanted to work, you would find something, you get into work, you look for something better, or get training to get new skills, but they dont, they wait for it all to be given to them(or to loot) and blame everyone but themselves.

If you asked them you'd probably find the majority do want to work. Why would they be any different to the rest of the population who want a better standard of living?

 

[Splog]

It seems to me that the media are doing their bit to skew things here
The footage shown on TV seems to show mostly the very young thieves and rioters, and most of them are black or asian. But the reality is that the thieves and rioters are mainly teenagers and young adults, with a fair few that are older, and that they come from all races and a wide range of backgrounds. In fact, the only thing that most of them seem to have in common is their greed and criminal intent.

I hope I've got it wrong, but it seems to me that the media have their own, false agenda here, condemning racism with one hand and promoting it with the other

I just watched a bit of the BBC about those arriving for the court hearings, they showed three people arriving and all were white! ...... Yup! The beeb are trying to make a point and definitely a very skewed perspective :shrug:

 

[malo50]

If you asked them you'd probably find the majority do want to work. Why would they be any different to the rest of the population who want a better standard of living?

Would you please answer my question?

 

[Matt]

To save money. You didn't get rent or rates rebate, but you earned 25K. If you don't earn a wage you get these things. As some on here have found also, you can soon find yourself on the dole with no warning. I am sure those on this forum who have been (or currently are) on benefits will paint a different picture to that of people earning a handsome living from benefits.

So if I support 2 kids and earn 25k, but pay £6600k on rent and £1800 on council tax,(estimAtes) meanwhile 16 hour week girl gets that paid and rent so her 330 a week nets her 17500 all in, so my 42 hour week with much stress and hard work is easily equalled by going part time...where is the incentive to work in that? I'm not sayin that genuine cases shouldn't get help, but it's too easy to get a lot of money if you play the system, which a lot of people do.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

If you asked them you'd probably find the majority do want to work. Why would they be any different to the rest of the population who want a better standard of living?

That has to be the stupidest statement you've come out with so far and believe me it's up against some stiff opposition....

 

[Matt]

If you asked them you'd probably find the majority do want to work. Why would they be any different to the rest of the population who want a better standard of living?

You know you've just typed that and posted it, right? If they wanted to work, they would, but they don't, that's why there are lots of migrant workers doing the jobs they 'can't find'

And on that note, g'nite folks. Interesting debating, thanks to all for mostly keeping it on the right tracks

 

[Laudrup]

I've never advocated any specific punishment for anyone of any age found guilty of any crime. I have, however, asked you a very simple question about why you vilified a person who's life choices led to her death, but won't condemn someone who's choice to carry a gun led to the situation we're seeing now. It's a ludicrously simple question but you seem loathe to answer it, as it may lead you to state an opinion rather than spout a platitude.

It seems as if the illegal gun wasn't discharged. We know that simply carrying it doesn't justify being shot dead, but we don't know what the cab driver has said or what the officer involved said. At a guess the officer said he felt his life was in danger as Duggan was reaching for his gun. We'll probably never know unless CCTV caught it.

Amy Winehouse's demise can be summed up somewhat laconically.