So Tottenham burns!

[KayJay]

well lets see, would you like to be labelled a ''nerd''

''They typically appear either to lack confidence or to be indifferent or oblivious to the negative perceptions held of them by others, with the result that they become frequent objects of scorn, ridicule, bullying, and social isolation. Some nerds show a pronounced interest in subjects which others tend to find dull or boring, or just simply too complex and difficult to comprehend, or overly mature for their age, especially topics related to science, mathematics and technology.''
quoted from Wiki

i suggest you think before typing

WTF mate. It was meant as a self deprecating humour. I've been called much worse in my life in less than humorous situations. Since you seem to like quoting Wikipedia here is a definition of 'self deprecating' for you.

Self-deprecation is the act of belittling or undervaluing oneself. It can be used in humor and tension release.

 

[Catdaddy]

Come back to me with your exact figure and we'll discuss how good it is.

Why the heck should I give you exact figures when you can't even give a straight answer to a single question that others have asked you?

The fact that I know is because a few years ago, I was made redundant and was in exactly that position. Single parent, 2 kids, on income support. It turned out that I could claim benefits that were more-or-less the same as the amount that I was earning before my redundancy...

 

[Lindsay D]

What worries me is this vigilantism, ok I can understand the feelings behind why people are out on the street, but a couple of points concern me.

Firstly, if one of these groups catches a looter/rioter what would they do to him/her? Hand them over to the Police or give them a good kicking?

It's going to set a precedent and unless the police move in and try to quash that then it's only a short step to gangs of vigilantes on our streets every night, metering out "justice" for any small infraction that offends their sense of decency.

I think they just want to protect their property, if the police are absent, poorly equipped, unsupported, or unable to control the rioters then this is an inevitable consequence. If a rioter gets injured in the pursuit of their criminal intentions then that's their own fault, it's the risk they take if they want to create mayhem. They can't have it both ways. The infractions meted out on innocent civilians have been pretty horrific.

 

[gramps]

I think they just want to protect their property, if the police are absent, poorly equipped, unsupported, or unable to control the rioters then this is an inevitable consequence. If a rioter gets injured in the pursuit of their criminal intentions then that's their own fault, it's the risk they take if they want to create mayhem. They can't have it both ways. The infractions meted out on innocent civilians have been pretty horrific.

 

[Roadkill_6mm]

You just answered your own question. You do introduce an interesting point on tax though, look at what tax evasion costs us as a nation every year.

Not really answered my own question - at the end of the day he was a bright lad with a good degree.

My point was where is the incentive for a young person with no qualificatio, no work ethic and no great ambition. The problem seems to be that a whole generation expects things handed to them on a plate.

Neil

 

[Matt]

just watching BBC news...where do they find some of these wallys to interview!

Laudrup, your arguments are invalid as you dont seem capable of answering any simple questions.

 

[Laudrup]

Where it's going is worse.

You're happy with a break down of law and order, decent people afraid to walk the streets? Drug dealers, pimps and gangs controlling the streets and the liberal element saying they're not really bad is fine? Never mind that the guy has just had his business torched, they're just misunderstood. That's what happens when the liberal element advocate lighter sentences, approving of less accountability, recommending "engagement".

Criminals, like the looters and rioters have been severely restricted by simply putting more police on the streets. We did not need to descend into the bleak, oppressive dystopia that many on here craved.

well its been covered before, but the reason Poles are taking some of the jobs, is because they start on time, leave on time and work hard, unlike our 'i deserve more' underclass of slackers. the attitude is all wrong.

Laudrup...are you playing devils advocate, trolling, or do you really believe what you are saying, or just dont get it? I cant decide...

The knee-jerk reactions from some ranging from wanting the army shooting people on the streets to doe-eyed musing about how Saddam wouldn't have let this happen are pretty appalling. So no, I'm not trolling or playing devil's advocate, I do genuinely think shooting kids for stealing xbox games would be wrong.

 

[Laudrup]

just watching BBC news...where do they find some of these wallys to interview!

Laudrup, your arguments are invalid as you dont seem capable of answering any simple questions.

I think I've answered quite a lot with courtesy in the face of a lot of, albeit removed insults.

 

[TCR4x4]

If any good is to come of all this mess, my ebay earplug store has gone mad.

 

[neil_g]

If any good is to come of all this mess, my ebay earplug store has gone mad.

WHAT??!

 

[malo50]

I've never advocated any specific punishment for anyone of any age found guilty of any crime. I have, however, asked you a very simple question about why you vilified a person who's life choices led to her death, but won't condemn someone who's choice to carry a gun led to the situation we're seeing now. It's a ludicrously simple question but you seem loathe to answer it, as it may lead you to state an opinion rather than spout a platitude.

 

[Lindsay D]

Not really answered my own question - at the end of the day he was a bright lad with a good degree.

My point was where is the incentive for a young person with no qualificatio, no work ethic and no great ambition. The problem seems to be that a whole generation expects things handed to them on a plate.

Neil

I can remember back to when I was at school (round about the time of doing O Levels) and conversations would often turn to what we were going to to do when the exams were over. Many of us went on to do A Levels and Uni but there was a contingent of girls who had planned their future meticulously; their intention was to become pregnant and acquire a council house or flat so they wouldn't have to worry about working or having a career, or revising to pass exams. They did follow through on this, and they did get their council accommodation, it's of a very high standard in our manor. A lot of my friends as well as myself struggled when we finished our studies to get work and make ends meet, I daresay the girls I just mentioned had a better disposable income than we did at that point, though we did retain the rare commodity of self respect.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

I think they just want to protect their property, if the police are absent, poorly equipped, unsupported, or unable to control the rioters then this is an inevitable consequence. If a rioter gets injured in the pursuit of their criminal intentions then that's their own fault, it's the risk they take if they want to create mayhem. They can't have it both ways. The infractions meted out on innocent civilians have been pretty horrific.

That's fine, but from what I've seen on the news you have groups of what look like football hooligans or EDL "protecting" the streets. What is really needed is some decisive action from our, so far, poorly-organised government. Whether that is more police, troops on the streets, or something even more robust I don't know, but what we don't need is for the security of the nation's streets to become the preserve of right-wing bully boys.

 

[whiteflyer]

Come back to me with your exact figure and we'll discuss how good it is.

These DO NOT include the other benefit you would be entitled to.


Single Parent not working with 1 child
Child tax credit £59.45
Child benefit £20.30

Single Parent not working with 2 children
Child tax credit £108.45
Child benefit £33.70

Single Parent not working with 3 children
Child tax credit £157.45
Child benefit £47.10

Single Parent not working with 4 children
Child tax credit £206.45
Child benefit £60.50

If she was working minimum wage for 16 hours a week she would receive an extra £74.22 Working tax credit excluding childcare element.


So work 16 hours a week on minimum wage with 2 children and receive £334 a week in total, which is more than my 39 hours a week permanent lates getting extra shift pay.

There would be other benefits she would more than likely get too.

 

[Marc]

I think I've answered quite a lot with courtesy in the face of a lot of, albeit removed insults.

You've also ignored a lot of questions and you just seem to cherry pick the one's you feel you can answer. Not a lot of courtesy in that.

 

[Yves Geza]

I think they just want to protect their property, if the police are absent, poorly equipped, unsupported, or unable to control the rioters then this is an inevitable consequence. If a rioter gets injured in the pursuit of their criminal intentions then that's their own fault, it's the risk they take if they want to create mayhem. They can't have it both ways. The infractions meted out on innocent civilians have been pretty horrific.

So when the wrong kid chances to turn the wrong corner at the wrong time presumably they're going to deserve "horrific infractions" too.

Maybe [being pragmatic] you really mean the wrong colour kid because that is actually what is going to happen in practice.

I just hope it's not one of my kids or any of their friends.


Anyway, from this thread, I've learnt to blame that wishy-washy softie, John Stuart Mill! It turns out individual free will is the cause of rioting and state intervention the cure!

It would actually be nice if you were to answer peoples questions and join in the conversation rather than cherry pick small pieces of other peoples' posts in order to try to score points (You're losing badly by the way)

He's not losing by that much, Marc!

After all, as John Stuart Mill said, that there are " limits of the power which can be legitimately exercised by [an internet Photography forum] over the individual"

30 pages ago he got people to knee-jerk that we should shoot looters on the street- or maybe any other teenager who chanced to turn the wrong corner at the wrong time.

And now, apparently, no one should be permitted to get pregnant without the state's permission because it might be "deliberate"

 

[Matt]

The knee-jerk reactions from some ranging from wanting the army shooting people on the streets to doe-eyed musing about how Saddam wouldn't have let this happen are pretty appalling. So no, I'm not trolling or playing devil's advocate, I do genuinely think shooting kids for stealing xbox games would be wrong.

nicely sidestepped. take 1 comment out of many pages but ignore all the valid points youve been avoiding

I think I've answered quite a lot with courtesy in the face of a lot of, albeit removed insults.

youve also not answered a lot. on a more diplomatic note, report any posts you feel are offensive.

 

[Splog]

just watching BBC news...where do they find some of these wallys to interview!

Don't know! .. but they just reported the Police don't want more power.... Just for Cameron to halt the cuts they are facing ..... If true? the police authorities have just gone way down in my opinion.

 

[Marc]

He's not losing by that much, Marc!

After all, as John Stuart Mill said, that there are " limits of the power which can be legitimately exercised by [an internet Photography forum] over the individual"

30 pages ago he got people to knee-jerk that we should shoot looters on the street- or maybe any other teenager who chanced to turn the wrong corner at the wrong time.

And now, apparently, no one should be permitted to get pregnant without the state's permission because it might be "deliberate"

Don't think anyone has advocated that Jonathan.

 

[Laudrup]

Not really answered my own question - at the end of the day he was a bright lad with a good degree.

My point was where is the incentive for a young person with no qualificatio, no work ethic and no great ambition. The problem seems to be that a whole generation expects things handed to them on a plate.

Neil

He could have sat on benefits though, but he wanted a better life and had the skills at his disposal.

This is why we need to make sure we aren't letting people leave with no qualifications or placements. We aren't going to churn out a whole generation of William Sidis', but maybe instead of enshrining higher education as the supreme aim we should look at apprenticeships or something practical that would engage these pupils more than academia.

 

[Lindsay D]

Criminals, like the looters and rioters have been severely restricted by simply putting more police on the streets. We did not need to descend into the bleak, oppressive dystopia that many on here craved.



The knee-jerk reactions from some ranging from wanting the army shooting people on the streets to doe-eyed musing about how Saddam wouldn't have let this happen are pretty appalling. So no, I'm not trolling or playing devil's advocate, I do genuinely think shooting kids for stealing xbox games would be wrong.

Laudrup, nobody is advocating that people are indiscriminately shot, come on now. A desire for firmer and more decisive police action is more than reasonable and if a police officer or member of the public is placed under serious and direct threat of injury or death then they should be allowed to defend themselves accordingly. It's not unreasonable to expect or demand that a hard line is taken with anyone who wantonly destroys the property and liberty of others.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

but maybe instead of enshrining higher education as the supreme aim we should look at apprenticeships or something practical that would engage these pupils more than academia.

Apprenticeships in what? We have almost no industry left. We had become the oft quoted "nation of shopkeepers", but now all the shops have been looted.....

 

[malo50]

Any chance of answering my question please? I haven't insulted you, and I hope I've been courteous, so would appreciate the courtesy of a reply.

 

[Lindsay D]

what we don't need is for the security of the nation's streets to become the preserve of right-wing bully boys.

I fully agree and it would be dreadful if it came to that, but if it does it's down to, as you say, the failure of the higher authorities to take the right course of action sooner rather than later.

 

[Photo Plod]

I'm too tired to follow this debate.

Me and my colleagues have worked every hour possible, and are barely able to catch up with a minimum amount of sleep. Even the CID are out patrolling the streets, and I've now picked up my fair share of abuse, knocks and scrapes after trying to restore some order. The support we have received from the public has been fantastic.

This is the mentality of the people we're facing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

Or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuqeQaEatiI&feature=player_embedded

And, even once we've got order back, this mentality will remain. Until people accept that there is a large, feral underclass - with no hope, aspiration or desire to be part of a civilised society - so this will continue.

 

[ding76uk]

These DO NOT include the other benefit you would be entitled to.


Single Parent not working with 1 child
Child tax credit £59.45
Child benefit £20.30

Single Parent not working with 2 children
Child tax credit £108.45
Child benefit £33.70

Single Parent not working with 3 children
Child tax credit £157.45
Child benefit £47.10

Single Parent not working with 4 children
Child tax credit £206.45
Child benefit £60.50

If she was working minimum wage for 16 hours a week she would receive an extra £74.22 Working tax credit excluding childcare element.


So work 16 hours a week on minimum wage with 2 children and receive £334 a week, which is more than my 39 hours a week permanent lates getting extra shift pay.

There would be other benefits she would more than likely get too.

People on an income of £40'000 to claim £545 per year for Child Tax Credit?

If you ear £25'000 you get £2705 (can go to £13, 625) for 2 children. Just quoting facts for those unemployed does in no way show the whole picture

 

[Matt]

He could have sat on benefits though, but he wanted a better life and had the skills at his disposal.

This is why we need to make sure we aren't letting people leave with no qualifications or placements. We aren't going to churn out a whole generation of William Sidis', but maybe instead of enshrining higher education as the supreme aim we should look at apprenticeships or something practical that would engage these pupils more than academia.

and here is one of the problems, they dont WANT to work. they go and stare at boards full of jobs at the job center and then say there are no jobs. if you wanted to work, you would find something, you get into work, you look for something better, or get training to get new skills, but they dont, they wait for it all to be given to them(or to loot) and blame everyone but themselves.

 

[daizylindsay]

Unfortunately though, this isn't just a case of "kids stealing an xbox game" is it??

Laudrup, you are obviously not a shop/home owner in the midst of this chaos. If you were, you would not be advocating giving them apprenticeships etc.

These people are scum. The dregs of society. They don't WANT jobs etc, they want more stuff giving to them!

They are quite frankly taking the p***.

 

[Lindsay D]

So when the wrong kid chances to turn the wrong corner at the wrong time presumably they're going to deserve "horrific infractions" too.

Maybe [being pragmatic] you really mean the wrong colour kid because that is actually what is going to happen in practice.

You've misunderstood or twisted what I said and I cannot believe nor fathom how I have invited your remark about race/colour in your response - but I find your suggestion well out of order. If kids are roaming the riot-strewn streets then they (and you as a parent if that's the case) will have to accept that they may end up in danger.

 

[ding76uk]

Until people accept that there is a large, feral underclass - with no hope, aspiration or desire to be part of a civilised society - so this will continue.

It will only remain until that underclass are shown an alternative and encouraged. Cutting services will not was this number.

I am sure I will get called bleeding heart liberal, but using the most basic educational term of "Mokey see, monkey do" If people are show better than the lifestyle their influences and peers push onto them, then we would begin to see a change. Punishment and marginalisation only breed distrust & hatred, which has lead to youths who fear no one, respect nothing and simply do not care.

 

[Matt]

People on an income of £40'000 to claim £545 per year for Child Tax Credit?

If you ear £25'000 you get £2705 (can go to £13, 625) for 2 children. Just quoting facts for those unemployed does in no way show the whole picture

but you dont get rent paid or big council tax reductions. as it stands, you are better off unemployed than working

 

[Flash In The Pan]

I'm too tired to follow this debate.

Me and my colleagues have worked every hour possible, and are barely able to catch up with a minimum amount of sleep. Even the CID are out patrolling the streets, and I've now picked up my fair share of abuse, knocks and scrapes after trying to restore some order. The support we have received from the public has been fantastic.

This is the mentality of the people we're facing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

Or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuqeQaEatiI&feature=player_embedded

And, even once we've got order back, this mentality will remain. Until people accept that there is a large, feral underclass - with no hope, aspiration or desire to be part of a civilised society - so this will continue.

I don't think any right-thinking person has anything but gratitude and support for the work you and your colleagues are undertaking in these trying times, Chris

 

[Lindsay D]

I don't think any right-thinking person has anything but gratitude and support for the work you and your colleagues are undertaking in these trying times, Chris

 

[digitalfailure]

I don't think any right-thinking person has anything but gratitude and support for the work you and your colleagues are undertaking in these trying times, Chris

Here Here

 

[ding76uk]

Unfortunately though, this isn't just a case of "kids stealing an xbox game" is it??

Laudrup, you are obviously not a shop/home owner in the midst of this chaos. If you were, you would not be advocating giving them apprenticeships etc.

So instead we tar the youth of a whole area based on the actions of a minority?

These people are scum. The dregs of society. They don't WANT jobs etc, they want more stuff giving to them!

They are quite frankly taking the p***.

Generalisation, what do you base this on?

For every child you see looting there are hundreds in the same areas at home afraid to go out.

 

[Catdaddy]

He could have sat on benefits though, but he wanted a better life and had the skills at his disposal.

This is why we need to make sure we aren't letting people leave with no qualifications or placements. We aren't going to churn out a whole generation of William Sidis', but maybe instead of enshrining higher education as the supreme aim we should look at apprenticeships or something practical that would engage these pupils more than academia.

Thing is, Laudrup, these idiots that have been rioting KNOW the difference between right and wrong. Why should it be up to others to have to 'engage' them?

When I was a kid, we made our own fun up. We didn't go around harming or robbing off anyone. We didn't carry guns or blades. We had a green area with a see-saw. That was it. A see-saw...

We found other things to occupy ourselves, but certainly never went around doing any of the kind of crap that's been going on. And if I HAD done anything like that, I hate to think of the punishment that would have been meted out to me. Not only by the law, but by my parents as well. And quite bloody right too.

These idiots seem to think it's their God-given right to have as much as they can get - by fair means or, more typically, foul. And I'm sorry, but that's a whole world apart from how things were when I was younger - when we were disciplined appropriately and were taught the meaning of the word 'respect'. Not only for other people's property, but for other people, full stop. Someone mentioned earlier getting a clip around the ear from a policeman. They can't do that these days for fear of accusations of brutality... It's ridiculous.

These idiots are banging on about being bored, or how they want material goods... well go and find something constructive to do then. Like we had to. Something which doesn't involve damaging other people and their property. And the people that think a softly-softly approach is the way forward? I'm sorry, but these rioters don't seem to be too willing to use that approach when robbing other people blind, do they? People have died at their hands, for God's sake...

and here is one of the problems, they dont WANT to work. they go and stare at boards full of jobs at the job center and then say there are no jobs. if you wanted to work, you would find something, you get into work, you look for something better, or get training to get new skills, but they dont, they wait for it all to be given to them(or to loot) and blame everyone but themselves.

Very true...

 

[ding76uk]

but you dont get rent paid or big council tax reductions. as it stands, you are better off unemployed than working

Based on what calculations?

 

[Matt]

It will only remain until that underclass are shown an alternative and encouraged.

agreed

Cutting services will not was this number.

different discussion. too political to go down this road

I am sure I will get called bleeding heart liberal, but using the most basic educational term of "Mokey see, monkey do" If people are show better than the lifestyle their influences and peers push onto them, then we would begin to see a change.

i agree with this, but its family and friends that need to show them - do they have the right moral compass? Schools are too lax with discipline and direction

Punishment and marginalisation only breed distrust & hatred, which has lead to youths who fear no one, respect nothing and simply do not care.

no, i think that having no moral compass causes this, they are not punished and that is part of the problem. They have been allowed to fester for way too long

 

[daizylindsay]

So instead we tar the youth of a whole area based on the actions of a minority?

Generalisation, what do you base this on?

For every child you see looting there are hundreds in the same areas at home afraid to go out.

No generalisation - The very reason I said "people" and not young people. I'm taking about the people who are blatantly rioting/looting, the ones we are seeing/have seen before our very eyes.

What would you call them?

 

[malo50]

Thing is, Laudrup, these idiots that have been rioting KNOW the difference between right and wrong. Why should it be up to others to have to 'engage' them?

When I was a kid, we made our own fun up. We didn't go around harming or robbing off anyone. We didn't carry guns or blades. We had a green area with a see-saw. That was it. A see-saw...

We found other things to occupy ourselves, but certainly never went around doing any of the kind of crap that's been going on. And if I HAD done anything like that, I hate to think of the punishment that would have been meted out to me. Not only by the law, but by my parents as well. And quite bloody right too.

These idiots seem to think it's their God-given right to have as much as they can get - by fair means or, more typically, foul. And I'm sorry, but that's a whole world apart from how things were when I was younger - when we were disciplined appropriately and were taught the meaning of the word 'respect'. Not only for other people's property, but for other people, full stop. Someone mentioned earlier getting a clip around the ear from a policeman. They can't do that these days for fear of accusations of brutality... It's ridiculous.

These idiots are banging on about being bored, or how they want material goods... well go and find something constructive to do then. Like we had to. Something which doesn't involve damaging other people and their property. And the people that think a softly-softly approach is the way forward? I'm sorry, but these rioters don't seem to be too willing to use that approach when robbing other people blind, do they? People have died at their hands, for God's sake...

Very true...

You had a see-saw? You were lucky ( in 4 Yorkshireman voice)