So Tottenham burns!

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Laudrup said:
If you haven't found a job after 6 months and your benefits are stopped what happens? What happens to the 2 or 3 children, starve, on the streets, what?

I'd rather money is used for job creation and trying to find people work whilst they are on benefits or those long term benefit claimers doing charity work to earn their benefits. It is a far cheaper solution than stopping them, watching them decamp to the streets or turn to crime and housing them for £40k a year.
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What happened in years gone by, long before our benefits system evolved?
People in need had to go onto 'parish relief'. If they were fit to work then they were put to work for the benefit of the community, and prospective employers looking for workers recruited from the people doing the community work. It worked as a system, because in spite of the overseers some people would inevitably work harder than others and the prospective employers could easily see who wanted to work and who wanted to avoid work.

Those who were unfit to work through temporary illness didn't have to.

As I understand it, they didn't get any money but they were supplied with food.

Of course, that system was unfair and flawed, and a lot of the poor ended up leading miserable lives in workhouses.

I'm not suggesting a return to that kind of existence, but surely it's been proved that your own endorsement of giving people money so that they aren't tempted to commit crimes has been proved to be ineffective?

As I see it, one of the many problems associated with our generosity is that the benefits aren't enough for the people with genuine need (because we can't afford to support people properly) but that nobody seems to care that a very large number of totally undeserving people get money that isn't needed or deserved.

As an example, there's a Jobcentre round here that frequently has loads of taxis and minicabs parked outside it, while the drivers go inside to sign on. It wouldn't be difficult for the staff to pop outside once in a while to see whether their claimants drive away in a taxi, but they don't even have to do that - because I've seen drivers go in there who don't even bother to take off their badges!
 
fracster said:
Yes.

Stop sending all and sundry to University to gain a worthless degree.

Anyone of any nationality,race or religion who enters this country cannot claim any benefit of any type until they have paid into the system for five whole years.

Anybody able to work, who does not gain employment within six moths get thier benefits stopped.

Child benefit for the first child only.You want more, pay your own way, especially young "ladies" who are on the CBS and housing benefit jaunt for life.

All the other spongers,hangers on and general dossers should receive no benefit. The benefit system is a fantastic thing for those who need it, unfortunately the system is being taken advantage of.The system needs a general overhaul and update.

The majority of us have had jobs we loathe, but we do them to make a living whilst we look for something better.We do not resort to looting and robbery, arson or riot.

No matter how you prattle on, no matter how many lily livered do gooders spout off in the media, no matter how many left wing namby pamby council/social workers try to justify what these feral scumbags have done.

There is no justification for their actions, none whatsoever.
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Can't disagree with a single thing you wrote.
 
Laudrup said:
If you haven't found a job after 6 months and your benefits are stopped what happens?
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I don`t care,whilst there are jobs available, people able to work should not receive benefits.

Laudrup said:
What happens to the 2 or 3 children, starve, on the streets, what?
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I have already stated that the benefit system is good for people who need it. I then said that I had already stated that. Can you not read a simple paragraph?
 
fracster said:
I don`t care,whilst there are jobs available, people able to work should not receive benefits.
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But some people are unemployable and I'm not talking about disabilities. I'm talking about worthless lowlifes that no self respecting employer would want anywhere near them! - Shouldn't they receive more benefits than others? .. otherwise how else are they supposed to have a nice life, go on holiday, have important toys like mobile phones etc? Surely they need more from those of us who are hard working and earning a decent income - I'm sure we could all pay a bit more tax to keep them off the streets. :thinking:
 
fracster said:
Yes.

Stop sending all and sundry to University to gain a worthless degree.

Anyone of any nationality,race or religion who enters this country cannot claim any benefit of any type until they have paid into the system for five whole years.

Anybody able to work, who does not gain employment within six moths get thier benefits stopped.

Child benefit for the first child only.You want more, pay your own way, especially young "ladies" who are on the CBS and housing benefit jaunt for life.

All the other spongers,hangers on and general dossers should receive no benefit. The benefit system is a fantastic thing for those who need it, unfortunately the system is being taken advantage of.The system needs a general overhaul and update.

The majority of us have had jobs we loathe, but we do them to make a living whilst we look for something better.We do not resort to looting and robbery, arson or riot.

No matter how you prattle on, no matter how many lily livered do gooders spout off in the media, no matter how many left wing namby pamby council/social workers try to justify what these feral scumbags have done.

There is no justification for their actions, none whatsoever.
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Is that list lifted direct from the Daily Mail?

Usual rubbish that would deteriorate the situation in the long term.

National service blah blah blah. Remember what Reggie & Ronnie did in National service?

Did you see the Louie Theroux programme on BBC2 where they did this in America and the percentage of re offence was huge anyway. Same programme shoed the state of US prison system, not quite the amazing system all and sundry claim.

Ah yeah, but why base it on evidence, just sounds good doesn't it.
 
John Stuart Mill wrote in his great 1859 essay On Liberty: ‘The liberty of the individual must be thus far limited; he must not make himself a nuisance to other people.’
Yet every day up and down the land, this vital principle of civilised societies is breached with impunity.
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On the nail, the situation has been brewing for years as the right to 'discipline' has been taken away from parents, teachers and authorities.

One person appearing before Stockwell Magistrates Court was a 'teaching mentor' responsible for mentoring children in a Stockwell school ... the mind boggles!
 
Never thought I'd ever see a Daily Mail article hit the nail perfectly on the head.
 
ding76uk said:
Is that list lifted direct from the Daily Mail?

Usual rubbish that would deteriorate the situation in the long term.

National service blah blah blah. Remember what Reggie & Ronnie did in National service?

Did you see the Louie Theroux programme on BBC2 where they did this in America and the percentage of re offence was huge anyway. Same programme shoed the state of US prison system, not quite the amazing system all and sundry claim.

Ah yeah, but why base it on evidence, just sounds good doesn't it.
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Err,No. I don`t read the Mail nor any other daily rag. People are capable of forming opinions and ideas with out the input of are ,far from ideal,journalistic feasts.

Nowhere did I mention National service,did I?

And no, I don`t watch much TV either thanks.
 
The punishments nowadays mean nothing to them. Only one way to punish them properly is public flogging.

Realspeed
 
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Laudrup said:
At £170,000 per place in the middle of a recession don't you think there might be better and more efficient ways to use that money?
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I know I'll get in trouble but after reading pages of your crap I can take it no longer - Mod Edit: OI!.

Although I will respond by saying that this guy has the solution:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio

Build it and they will come..... give the people what they want.

Mods - I'm sorry but it was worth it.
 
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gingerweasel said:
I know I'll get in trouble but after reading pages of your crap I can take it no longer - XXXXXXXXXX.



Mods - I'm sorry but it was worth it.
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A lot more placid than my previous version............:D
 
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Garry Edwards said:
What happened in years gone by, long before our benefits system evolved?
People in need had to go onto 'parish relief'. If they were fit to work then they were put to work for the benefit of the community, and prospective employers looking for workers recruited from the people doing the community work. It worked as a system, because in spite of the overseers some people would inevitably work harder than others and the prospective employers could easily see who wanted to work and who wanted to avoid work.

Those who were unfit to work through temporary illness didn't have to.

As I understand it, they didn't get any money but they were supplied with food.

Of course, that system was unfair and flawed, and a lot of the poor ended up leading miserable lives in workhouses.

I'm not suggesting a return to that kind of existence, but surely it's been proved that your own endorsement of giving people money so that they aren't tempted to commit crimes has been proved to be ineffective?

As I see it, one of the many problems associated with our generosity is that the benefits aren't enough for the people with genuine need (because we can't afford to support people properly) but that nobody seems to care that a very large number of totally undeserving people get money that isn't needed or deserved.

As an example, there's a Jobcentre round here that frequently has loads of taxis and minicabs parked outside it, while the drivers go inside to sign on. It wouldn't be difficult for the staff to pop outside once in a while to see whether their claimants drive away in a taxi, but they don't even have to do that - because I've seen drivers go in there who don't even bother to take off their badges!
Click to expand...

If you take away that safety net it is going to send us back to those days. We've moved on from workhouses, capital and corporal punishment. You'll always get people abusing the system, but like your taxi driver example you can always report these people anonymously.
 
Just seen the Crime & Security Minister on ITV's 'Tonight' programme ... James Brokenshire ... bit ironic I thought.
 
to be honest, i don't really have a solution.

Personal thoughts are bang up 20 to a cell on a remote island and let them fight it out.....

In reality, we are bound by laws and human rights, but then the poor people of many places who have been affected by this also have rights.

Personal opinion is in the last 25 years we have gone too liberal........ I remember the days when a copper could clip your ear and drag you home, and to be honest that never happened to me, but had it of done, I'd have been more worried about what would have happened once the cops left!

Serous disregard for authority, not helped by schools, teachers, parents, media a dn now online social networks.
 
fracster said:
Yes.

Stop sending all and sundry to University to gain a worthless degree.

Anyone of any nationality,race or religion who enters this country cannot claim any benefit of any type until they have paid into the system for five whole years.

Anybody able to work, who does not gain employment within six moths get thier benefits stopped.

Child benefit for the first child only.You want more, pay your own way, especially young "ladies" who are on the CBS and housing benefit jaunt for life.

All the other spongers,hangers on and general dossers should receive no benefit. The benefit system is a fantastic thing for those who need it, unfortunately the system is being taken advantage of.The system needs a general overhaul and update.

The majority of us have had jobs we loathe, but we do them to make a living whilst we look for something better.We do not resort to looting and robbery, arson or riot.

No matter how you prattle on, no matter how many lily livered do gooders spout off in the media, no matter how many left wing namby pamby council/social workers try to justify what these feral scumbags have done.

There is no justification for their actions, none whatsoever.
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I've stayed out of this til now, Frac I know I've called some of your posts arrogant and uncalled for in the past but how bloody true, great post and am sure how a he'll of a lot of people are thinking now but don't have the balls to say :thumbs:
 
gramps said:
On the nail, the situation has been brewing for years as the right to 'discipline' has been taken away from parents, teachers and authorities.

One person appearing before Stockwell Magistrates Court was a 'teaching mentor' responsible for mentoring children in a Stockwell school ... the mind boggles!
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Do you agree with the rest of Mill's philosophies?
 
MartynK said:
Do you agree with the rest of Mill's philosophies?
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I don't know him or his philosophies, the words I quoted are on the nail but in reality the opposite is the case today, everyone goes on about rights ... but nobody considers responsibilities!
 
TheNissanMan said:
Frac I know I've called some of your posts arrogant and uncalled for in the past but how bloody true, great post and am sure how a he'll of a lot of people are thinking now but don't have the balls to say :thumbs:
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And there was me thinking that someone hacked his account :D
 
BBC News now switched from their stance 'why aren't the police doing something, they just seem to be standing around' to 'we have seen youtube footage of police in Manchester using their batons on a young boy, is this acceptable?'.

Get off their back and let them do their job for christ sake!
 
Lynton said:
to be honest, i don't really have a solution.

Personal thoughts are bang up 20 to a cell on a remote island and let them fight it out.....

In reality, we are bound by laws and human rights, but then the poor people of many places who have been affected by this also have rights.

Personal opinion is in the last 25 years we have gone too liberal........ I remember the days when a copper could clip your ear and drag you home, and to be honest that never happened to me, but had it of done, I'd have been more worried about what would have happened once the cops left!

Serous disregard for authority, not helped by schools, teachers, parents, media a dn now online social networks.
Click to expand...

oh so true, remember getting caught by the local bobby scrawling my name on a road sign, thought i'd got away with a telling off, when my mum came round the corner in the car, and flew across the road to see what i'd done,,,,, she made me go back up at 5pm the next night to scrub it off (main road) and grounded for a month, i never did anything like that again.

i don't have the answer to whats going on, i agree that respect for authority just isn't there anymore, and that a lot of the young feel they have a god given right to have the latest must have gadget, i know the country is in a state but i find it both scary and sad that its come to this.

Personally i'd put a load of bunks in these empty warehouses kicking around, stick a fence round with a look out on each corner, then chuck em all in to get on with it.

I
 
fracster said:
I don`t care,whilst there are jobs available, people able to work should not receive benefits.
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Which is why it won't work, and has little to no foresight.

I have already stated that the benefit system is good for people who need it. I then said that I had already stated that. Can you not read a simple paragraph?
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You said:

Child benefit for the first child only.You want more, pay your own way, especially young "ladies" who are on the CBS and housing benefit jaunt for life.
Click to expand...

So I'll try again. What happens to the second and third child if they receive no added benefit for them? Wanton penalisation of some of the poorest in society might be high on your agenda, not on mine.
 
fracster said:
Err,No. I don`t read the Mail nor any other daily rag. People are capable of forming opinions and ideas with out the input of are ,far from ideal,journalistic feasts.

Nowhere did I mention National service,did I?

And no, I don`t watch much TV either thanks.
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It is a list of practices that grab attention but are useless in real terms. Do you think that if you stop people from having money via benefits then crime will reduce?

Surely you must be able to see that that will lead to crime to fund food. What about the children? Put them on the street too? Anything like that will increase crime figures.

The issue that should be looked into is the fact the when any work is done benefits are cut to a level that make it financially unviable. If someone works part time, her benefits should be used to allow a small increase in living standards, you would still pay less, but cutting benefits for part time work to a level where it actually leads to a lower standard of living will give no motivation to work.

If a system was looked at that if you took on part time work you saw the benefit, more would be encouraged into working part and then full time reducing the benefits being paid out.

Threats and making it worse for someone to work 20 hours a week are ludicrous and although there are a few exceptions, the rule is that it is not a lush life these people lead. Positive motivation is a powerful factor that many overlook. Bullying and threats are never a motivator that works long term as has been proven. For example the Short Sharp Shock tactic that the Tories were voted in on '79 did nothing as crime increased throughout the decade of the 80's where these idealogical principles proved that they did not work in practice.
 
tumblr_lpnxr20qdM1r1qajlo1_r1_500.png


Just love this pic!

tumblr_lpo0y3Qzi61r1qajlo1_500.png
 
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AFC said:
So if a group of 'Black' guys break into a shop and loot it then WTF do you want the Police to do arrest all white males....OI!......Removed. There's no need for that.

You have made your point, you hate the Police.
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gingerweasel said:
I know I'll get in trouble but after reading pages of your crap I can take it no longer - Mod Edit: OI!.

Although I will respond by saying that this guy has the solution:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio

Build it and they will come..... give the people what they want.

Mods - I'm sorry but it was worth it.
Click to expand...

Looks like he wound both of us up.......
 
ding76uk said:
It is a list of practices that grab attention but are useless in real terms. Do you think that if you stop people from having money via benefits then crime will reduce?

Surely you must be able to see that that will lead to crime to fund food. What about the children? Put them on the street too? Anything like that will increase crime figures.

The issue that should be looked into is the fact the when any work is done benefits are cut to a level that make it financially unviable. If someone works part time, her benefits should be used to allow a small increase in living standards, you would still pay less, but cutting benefits for part time work to a level where it actually leads to a lower standard of living will give no motivation to work.

If a system was looked at that if you took on part time work you saw the benefit, more would be encouraged into working part and then full time reducing the benefits being paid out.

Threats and making it worse for someone to work 20 hours a week are ludicrous and although there are a few exceptions, the rule is that it is not a lush life these people lead. Positive motivation is a powerful factor that many overlook. Bullying and threats are never a motivator that works long term as has been proven. For example the Short Sharp Shock tactic that the Tories were voted in on '79 did nothing as crime increased throughout the decade of the 80's where these idealogical principles proved that they did not work in practice.
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People already work and continue to claim benefits, the argument fails.
 
Laudrup said:
So I'll try again. What happens to the second and third child if they receive no added benefit for them? Wanton penalisation of some of the poorest in society might be high on your agenda, not on mine.
Click to expand...

fracster said:
The benefit system is a fantastic thing for those who need it, unfortunately the system is being taken advantage of.The system needs a general overhaul and update.
Click to expand...

Read , read again and digest. Or at least try.
 
ding76uk said:
It is a list of practices that grab attention but are useless in real terms. Do you think that if you stop people from having money via benefits then crime will reduce?

Surely you must be able to see that that will lead to crime to fund food. What about the children? Put them on the street too? Anything like that will increase crime figures.

The issue that should be looked into is the fact the when any work is done benefits are cut to a level that make it financially unviable. If someone works part time, her benefits should be used to allow a small increase in living standards, you would still pay less, but cutting benefits for part time work to a level where it actually leads to a lower standard of living will give no motivation to work.

If a system was looked at that if you took on part time work you saw the benefit, more would be encouraged into working part and then full time reducing the benefits being paid out.

Threats and making it worse for someone to work 20 hours a week are ludicrous and although there are a few exceptions, the rule is that it is not a lush life these people lead. Positive motivation is a powerful factor that many overlook. Bullying and threats are never a motivator that works long term as has been proven. For example the Short Sharp Shock tactic that the Tories were voted in on '79 did nothing as crime increased throughout the decade of the 80's where these idealogical principles proved that they did not work in practice.
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Useless in your opinion. Not to many others who have to make a living in this screwed up country. A country that seems to award laziness, lawlessness and general thuggery.
 
ding76uk said:
The issue that should be looked into is the fact the when any work is done benefits are cut to a level that make it financially unviable. If someone works part time, her benefits should be used to allow a small increase in living standards, you would still pay less, but cutting benefits for part time work to a level where it actually leads to a lower standard of living will give no motivation to work.
Click to expand...

That's essentially the way the Newstart Programme works in Australia

http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/payments/newstart_iat.htm
 
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