So Tottenham burns!

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gingerweasel said:
How fickle we are. I see the poor police have already started to get some flak for their handling of the situation.

The British public have as much of a mob mentality as the looters due. Quite happy to jump on the bang wagon and bash the new target of the day.

SUPPORT OUR POLICE FORCES

They are doing a difficult job with little thanks from the general public. If they hold off and manage things calmly they are ripped to pieces for standing by, if they rush in and crack heads the PC brigade screem police brutality and some poor officer is handed to the press as a whipping boy to make politicians look like they are doing something.

If they had the numbers to move in and arrest the scum whilst maintaining their ability to respond to new incidents they would.

If you want to blame someone, lets blame ourselves for standing by and allowing our politicians to reduce the budgets of our police forces. What did you do to stop this? I bet most of us never even bothered to write a letter to our local MP!
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In fairness, from what I've read on here most people are supporting the police and criticism is being levelled at the government for not giving them more powers to deal with these little scrotes!
 
gingerweasel said:
How fickle we are. I see the poor police have already started to get some flak for their handling of the situation.

The British public have as much of a mob mentality as the looters due. Quite happy to jump on the bang wagon and bash the new target of the day.

SUPPORT OUR POLICE FORCES

They are doing a difficult job with little thanks from the general public. If they hold off and manage things calmly they are ripped to pieces for standing by, if they rush in and crack heads the PC brigade screem police brutality and some poor officer is handed to the press as a whipping boy to make politicians look like they are doing something.

If they had the numbers to move in and arrest the scum whilst maintaining their ability to respond to new incidents they would.

If you want to blame someone, lets blame ourselves for standing by and allowing our politicians to reduce the budgets of our police forces. What did you do to stop this? I bet most of us never even bothered to write a letter to our local MP!
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I don't think anyone is slating the police, their hands are tied, the government are to blame.

These louts are so used to being given everything, now they are just having a laugh and taking stuff because they can!
 
Russ77 said:
In fairness, from what I've read on here most people are supporting the police and criticism is being levelled at the government for not giving them more powers to deal with these little scrotes!
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In fairness I wasn't refering to this thread, I was refering to a lot of the press coverage this morning and a slew of small time politicians trying to snatch political points.

:thumbs:
 
It's almost as is the media wants more rioting etc and is stirring up trouble by constantly going on about the shooting of mark duggan.
 
The police can't be everywhere at once so people will have to gather together against criminals and make sure they get the idea the days of passive behaviour are gone and they will get battered if they take stuff.
 
Russ77 said:
In fairness, from what I've read on here most people are supporting the police and criticism is being levelled at the government for not giving them more powers to deal with these little scrotes!
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I'm not sure that the police need more powers. They have plenty already.

I think that what they actually need is more support - support from their senior officers, from HMG and from the public. They need to know that if something goes wrong when they're doing their best to do their job properly they'll get the support they need - and right now, they know that they won't.

Police are often very slow to react to situations, very slow to make decisions and it isn't difficult to see why. They have such a complex chain of command and so many arse-covering bosses that the people on the ground, who actually know what needs to be done, aren't allowed to take decisions and the people who can take decisions won't, because they know that the best way of getting to the top is to avoid controversy.

It's all very well for politicians to say that they may authorise the use of 'rubber bullets' but if they do, who can criticise the police if they don't use them?

Rubber bullets are in fact 41mm long hard plastic slugs fired from shotgun cartridges. They kill both the innocent and the guilty. Why would any police officer take the risk of killing someone without an absolute, cast iron written guarantee that his job, pension and liberty will be safe?
 
It almost sounded as though Harriet Harman was defending the rioters. I may have got the wrong impression, but it sounded to me like she was trotting out a load of excuses for their behaviour, like it's everyone else's fault. I can't stand that woman at best, but her 'they just need to be understood and we need to address the issues that have created a disenfranchised youth population' mentality which has prevailed for so long really makes me sick. The woman is responsible for a lot of nonsense, I think she's a complete airhead. If the rioters are so ungrateful for what our (civilized) country has to offer, they can just f*** off elsewhere. Liberal politicians pleading their case leaves me cold.
 
Mikesphotaes said:
You didn't look very far then Matty, did you?

Post 8 on this very thread.........

"...This was unchecked thieving and violence, pure and simple - piggybacked onto a police firearms incident to provide some loose "justification". An incident in which a supposedly "innocent" (to use the words of his family) man has fired a loaded handgun at a police officer, who has been lucky to escape with his life...."

No wonder the Channel 4 reporter was rather angry at being lied to by the police, last night!
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i actually meant the press, not the forum. And its still not proven he DIDNT fire, there is also no proof that he did, other than eye witness report.
 
Lindsay D said:
It almost sounded as though Harriet Harman was defending the rioters. I may have got the wrong impression, but it sounded to me like she was trotting out a load of excuses for their behaviour, like it's everyone else's fault. I can't stand that woman at best, but her 'they just need to be understood and we need to address the issues that have created a disenfranchised youth population' mentality which has prevailed for so long really makes me sick. The woman is responsible for a lot of nonsense, I think she's a complete airhead. If the rioters are so ungrateful for what our (civilized) country has to offer, they can just f*** off elsewhere. Liberal politicians pleading their case leaves me cold.
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Once it has settled down I'm sure a lot of these underlying issues will be looked at more closely to try and stop it happening again.
 
Whether Mr Duggan fired the gun or not doesn't really change anything. Apparently he had in his possession a loaded firearm. Why would he carry such a thing if there was no intent to use it at some point? If he showed his weapon then it's hardly surprising he was fired upon - would you wait to be shot before responding to an immediate threat to your life?
 
If the cause was loss of the EMA why weren't they looting bookshops??? Why weren't they protesting outside of university libraries that they won't be able to afford to now attend?? Cobblers, pure and simple.

Too many of them have been watching vapid nobodies going out and spending lots of money all seemingly without working or having any talent whatsoever.
 
Laudrup said:
Once it has settled down I'm sure a lot of these underlying issues will be looked at more closely to try and stop it happening again.
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Yes, the basis being a populace who no longer believes they are accountable for their actions, and there is certainly little deterrent with respect to punishment, and no sense of personal responsibility. All thanks to the soft approach to crime peddled by a previously long-standing government and the absurd 'rights' that criminals and offenders can now hide behind. Given that teachers can no longer (are not allowed to) maintain enough discipline in schools and many parents have given up instilling basic values in their offspring, it's little wonder that our culture is what it is.

I remember the days when we as children genuinely feared the consequences of anti-social behaviour, and I remember when it was OK to remove such offenders from your property if they were being a nuisance. If you did that now - look what might happen to you.
 
I was chatting to my Fianceé about this last night and whilst what I said was not that profound, it wasn't something I'd considered before........

Local "yoofs" have a habit of scrawling graffiti everywhere, snapping sapling trees and other "minor", some would call petty damage.

Then you have those that go around knocking down people's garden walls, smashing wing mirrors off cars etc.

Again, not crimes of the century but unacceptable behaviour that generally goes unchecked but what message does this send?

Well pretty much the message we've been hearing from these feral-hoodrats over the last few days "we'll do what we want, when we want and you wont stop us"......

This decline has been going on for years, I don't believe any individual political party is to blame. The cane was abolished under a Tory government, the softly softly approach to young offenders became more apparent under Labour.

Squabling over politics now isn't going to gain us much ground.

What we can do learn from what's happened by coming down hard on "anti-sociable behaviour". To be honest I don't like that term much, it's sound like a faddy way of saying "people behaving badly" which almost trivialises their actions and the effects it has on the victims of their actions.

The time has come to properly punish young offenders AND their parents!

It's not just down to the police, as members of the community we all need to report these minor incidents, instead of (as most do) treating them with apathy and the attitude "what's the point, nothing will happen". OK not much might happen but there's more chance of something happening if they are reported!

If the police, local authorities and government aren't made aware of the extent of these problems they never have a chance of sorting them out. If they are aware then choose to do nothing then we have every right to complain and try and get things to change.
 
PM - "Picture by picture" these criminals are being arrested, and they will not let "phoney" concerns about publishing CCTV images breaching human rights get in the way, he says. (BBC NEWS)

damn right, these scum forfeited their human rights when they started this.
 
I was listening to BBC Radio London this morning and some bloke, a reformed character who had seen the error of his ways was spouting on about these poor disenchanted deprived youths and how politictians don't live in the real world to see the poverty these poor kids live in.
These poor kids have the same chance of basic education as everyone else, it's what they choose to do with it as it is provided to them is their problem and no one elses. They just want everything handed to them on a plate or as we have seen they will just take it without earning it like the rest of us do. It's these kids who need to wake up and live in the real world, take responsibility for your actions. It was good to see the clean up campaigners and the people out in numbers to protect their neighbourhoods. This should give the rioters/looters the message that their actions are unacceptable and not to be tolerated and it's not just the police/government that have a problem with them.
I hope everyone of them is caught and sentenced. They ought to bring back the stocks so we can all chuck rotten vegetation at them and ridicule them for the idiots they are. Then sentence them to hard labour and force them to clear up their own mess.
 
Russ77 said:
I was chatting to my Fianceé about this last night and whilst what I said was not that profound, it wasn't something I'd considered before........

Local "yoofs" have a habit of scrawling graffiti everywhere, snapping sapling trees and other "minor", some would call petty damage.

Then you have those that go around knocking down people's garden walls, smashing wing mirrors off cars etc.

Again, not crimes of the century but unacceptable behaviour that generally goes unchecked but what message does this send?

Well pretty much the message we've been hearing from these feral-hoodrats over the last few days "we'll do what we want, when we want and you wont stop us"......

This decline has been going on for years, I don't believe any individual political party is to blame. The cane was abolished under a Tory government, the softly softly approach to young offenders became more apparent under Labour.

Squabling over politics now isn't going to gain us much ground.

What we can do learn from what's happened by coming down hard on "anti-sociable behaviour". To be honest I don't like that term much, it's sound like a faddy way of saying "people behaving badly" which almost trivialises their actions and the effects it has on the victims of their actions.

The time has come to properly punish young offenders AND their parents!

It's not just down to the police, as members of the community we all need to report these minor incidents, instead of (as most do) treating them with apathy and the attitude "what's the point, nothing will happen". OK not much might happen but there's more chance of something happening if they are reported!

If the police, local authorities and government aren't made aware of the extent of these problems they never have a chance of sorting them out. If they are aware then choose to do nothing then we have every right to complain and try and get things to change.
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I do agree with everything you say Russ, but I think it could be an impossible task. There is so much apathy in this country it's unbelievable, people just don't or don't want to stand up for themselves anymore, though they are happy to complain privately. We had a spate of what would be described as "petty crime" in our neighbourhood, I had theft and damage to some of my property and a neighbour had his car broken into. What completely amazed me was the accepting view and the statements from some victims that "oh they're just kids being kids" and "sending the law after them won't help". I am constantly amazed by how passive and accepting some of our population is. There was another incident where some young children were swinging on the branches of a tree by the road at the front of my property, aside from the constant screaming and unacceptable noise levels, it seemed clear to me that if the branch broke one of the juveniles would sustain an injury. With that approach, I went out and quietly raised it with them (because it appeared that everybody else in my street was too nervous to do so). I had a pleasant chat with the children and I went back indoors, moments later the father of one of the girls was hammering on my front door and he threatened to rearrange my skeleton if I ever spoke to his offspring again - and he meant it. This is what many of us have two content with. There is a level of "parenting" which frankly makes me sick and a view amongst some that their offspring should be allowed to do anything they want.
 
neil_g said:
PM - "Picture by picture" these criminals are being arrested, and they will not let "phoney" concerns about publishing CCTV images breaching human rights get in the way, he says. (BBC NEWS)
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Isn't that the whole point of CCTV anyway?
 
Nilagin....... I have to agree!

These disenchanted, deprived youths that all seem to have iPhone/Blackberries to help them coordinate these acts.

Most of them are only "poor" in their own eyes as there are others that struggle to get basic shelter, food or clothing.

It's a poor excuse for their behaviour :shake:
 
There seems to be an unpleasant minority in every generation. How do you stamp them out?

If you want to do something it could mean making and paying for thousands of extra prison places as keeping them off the streets, permanently, is the only way to stop them committing crimes. There are only expensive solutions.

Education hasn't been a solution as the hoodrats have had every opportunity that everyone else has that turned out ok. Seems to me that the very rich 'that do what they want' and the hoodrats have more in common with each other than the moral middle classes that seem to be paying for anti social behaviour from the very rich and the very poor.
 
Russ77 said:
Nilagin....... I have to agree!

These disenchanted, deprived youths that all seem to have iPhone/Blackberries to help them coordinate these acts.

Most of them are only "poor" in their own eyes as there are others that struggle to get basic shelter, food or clothing.

It's a poor excuse for their behaviour :shake:
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I've been to some "disaffected and deprived" areas in my lifetime and in some instances I was struck by the number of flash cars and gold watches. Once or twice I was given the impression that they had some contempt for people who had to work for what they had. What chance do the honest inhabitants of poor areas have when they're faced with that?
 
nilagin said:
politictians don't live in the real world .
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hes right about that bit though - if politician did live in real world they wouldnt be talking about cutting the police by 20% , and they'd give them the freedom to act to put a lid on the rioting scum

its easy for davey ad nick nick to blame commanders for not 'exercising the option of using baton rounds' which were 'available to them on the first night' but they overlook the fact that a commander who did would then be hung out to dry when the liberal press started bleating about brutality

Davey boy needs to man up and state categorically that no police officer will be prosecuted for such in putting down the riots - then if theres political heat he should take it like a man rather than passing it off on to police comanders like a weasel

(and this isnt a party political post - none of our so called leaders of any political hue have the cojones for the job - the last one that did was thatcher (which is ironic), I detested many of her policies but you couldnt accuse her of cowardice or fear of consequences)
 
"BBC reporter at Highbury Magistrates Courttells BBC 5 live the first person who appeared in the dock this morning was a 31-year-old teacher called Alexis Bailey. She pleaded guilty to being part of the looting of the Richer Sounds store in Croydon."

a teacher.. wonderful.
 
Lindsay D said:
I've been to some "disaffected and deprived" areas in my lifetime and in some instances I was struck by the number of flash cars and gold watches.
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yeah theres a certain irrony that these "poor deprived teenangers who were never given a chance by society" were organising their riotious activities by blackberry messenger - they can't be that deprived if they can afford smart phones.
 
For some strange reason Cameron doesn't seem so keen to extol the virtues of hugging a hoodie any more.......
 
I think the problem is that for far too long those that shout loudest, ie some minority groups have had their words taken as gospel.
So those that shout and rant about poverty and prospects, irrespective of the fact that they really are not in poverty, and have ruined their own prospects have been pandered too.
For example, after the 1981 riots in Brixton, I worked in Lambeth, and there were plenty of jobs going. The local yooof, didn't want to do them. Ok, maybe they were not the best paid, or the most interesting of jobs, but they were a start. The other reason was, why work for a wage, when you can steal, and make twice as much in a fraction of the time? Yes, there was the possibility of being caught, but the sentences handed out were not that high even then. Besides, as mitigation, they could always claim poverty and lack of opportunity.
In recent years, its a sad fact that both politicians and more worryingly, senior police officers have come to believe that those loud shouts are the real communities.
The one good thing that may come out of these disturbances and was obvious yesterday, that the silent majority have started to speak. I would hope that those same politians and Senior Police officers would listen, and realise the real community isn't the big mouths. Then again, I really should learn not to be so optimistic!
 
nilagin said:
I hope everyone of them is caught and sentenced. They ought to bring back the stocks so we can all chuck rotten vegetation at them and ridicule them for the idiots they are. Then sentence them to hard labour and force them to clear up their own mess.
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Perhaps put them in the stocks as you say but allow the shop owneres to through back the rocks, chairs, tables, scaffold poles, fire bombs etc. that the yobs used.
 
Lindsay D said:
Whether Mr Duggan fired the gun or not doesn't really change anything. Apparently he had in his possession a loaded firearm. Why would he carry such a thing if there was no intent to use it at some point? If he showed his weapon then it's hardly surprising he was fired upon - would you wait to be shot before responding to an immediate threat to your life?
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Couldn't agree more however am glad you said "apparently" because the most recent reports just said a gun found nearby.
 
Lindsay D said:
Yes, the basis being a populace who no longer believes they are accountable for their actions, and there is certainly little deterrent with respect to punishment, and no sense of personal responsibility. All thanks to the soft approach to crime peddled by a previously long-standing government and the absurd 'rights' that criminals and offenders can now hide behind. Given that teachers can no longer (are not allowed to) maintain enough discipline in schools and many parents have given up instilling basic values in their offspring, it's little wonder that our culture is what it is.

I remember the days when we as children genuinely feared the consequences of anti-social behaviour, and I remember when it was OK to remove such offenders from your property if they were being a nuisance. If you did that now - look what might happen to you.
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Yep, far too many Goody-goodies over the years and the end of family values.
 
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