So Tottenham burns!

[pampers]

Well it looks like it might kick off, in little old Hastings tonight.

Have been asked to try and keep the residents in tonight if poss. Police phoned the head of the S.A.T's team. Asking him to get in touch, with all sheltered accomodation. Asking staff to advise residents that staying in would be a good idea.

 

[Matt]

reading some of the stuff on twitter, it seems that the community at large is coming together to slap down these little *****. Millwall fans blocking a street in Eltham is a good one!

 

[Forbiddenbiker]

part of the problem is that every outbreak of disorder is now being described as rioting in media hype - one incidence of arson (the headington macD which is notorious for trouble) , a car on fire, and a small group of youths fighting with police is pretty standard for some parts of oxford , but today its being reported as rioting with the implication that its just like tottenham which in patently isnt

simliarly in wolverhampton sky are now reporting 'some disorder' which is a large step from the streets running with blood

likewise in Bristol there was a punch up with about 100 youths swiftly dispersed by somerset and avon, which isnt unknown either - there was a larger kick off than that on may the 8th.

i'm not saying that anyone here is making stuff up or exagerating small incidents but some people on twitter and facebook definitely are

I don't know either, I’ve been out and about through south and east London today, not seen much but I avoid the high streets so that’s not so surprising.
However most I've talked to have seen small but destructive incidents dotted throughout totally apart from the main news stuff, an impressive list of full on criminal damage I can tell you, cash machines nicked etc ... If I’m to believe all I hear every criminal in London went for it last night…sensible from their point of view I guess.

 

[The23rdman]

Explain exactly what it means. Educate me, because at the moment it says:

People are unable to think for themselves and therefore function by instinct.

If that's not making an excuse I don't know what is and I really can't work out why you'd post it otherwise.

Edit: for clarity I'm not saying you've nothing better to do, just the author, but I am wondering what bit of the brain you employed for that response.

Firstly, I apologize for calling you a retard. That was anger at being misinterpreted as a sympathizer. I am nothing of the sort and have been livid all day at people accusing me of being one.

These morons need hitting hard. Unfortunately it has come to this and I fear that tonight will see a tipping point where a new chapter in our countries history is written. Civilizationisdependant on the majority following the game rules and when a large enough number realise they massively outnumber the law enforcers you get this. The only answer is to hit them hard.

That's short term though. My initial post was intended to show that no matter how long we debate we'll never see a real civilization until we evolve further. If you doubt me then look at the world, look at all of us. We can't even agree here without resorting to emotional and heated exchanges.

We are flawed because we are young. Society generally does the best it can, but it is fundamentally flawed and nobody can solve it because we are all the problem.

We have to pull together the best we can and celebrate those who're doing their best to make things right on the streets and show those who're ****ing with their own community that this can never be tolerated.

Let us hope that one day this kind of discussion will not be necessary and we look back at how savage our ancestors were.

If not we are screwed as a species.

 

[The23rdman]

Just like to say how wonderful it is to see everyday folk of all races and back grounds coming together to help clean the streets and help the shop owners get back to business as usual.

Hats off to you all, well done.

Damn right.

 

[Lindsay D]

If a fair proportion of those held currently in the cells are charged with major offences, there won't be room for them in our already overstretched prison system.

 

[big soft moose]

If a fair proportion of those held currently in the cells are charged with major offences, there won't be room for them in our already overstretched prison system.

perhaps we should release all the non violent offenders to make room for them - for example my mate maz got 3 months for intent to supply because he was growing a few dope plants and supplying his mates (he was hardly the medelin cartel) - he's out now but the low cat prisons are jammed with people like that who really should have got community service.

 

[The23rdman]

perhaps we should release all the non violent offenders to make room for them - for example my mate maz got 3 months for intent to supply because he was growing a few dope plants and supplying his mates (he was hardly the medelin cartel) - he's out now but the low cat prisons are jammed with people like that who really should have got community service.

Agreed. If you're not a danger to the public you should be made to do proper decent CS that actually helps people. Prison should be about protecting the public from nutters because it does b****r all to rehabilitate the majority.

 

[ziggy©]

my mate maz got 3 months for intent to supply because he was growing a few dope plants and supplying his mates (he was hardly the medelin cartel) - he's out now but the low cat prisons are jammed with people like that who really should have got community service.

 

[ding76uk]

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet is that there are only 170 places left in the UK prison system. There is no way they can prosecute and imprison those who will be arrested. They have also closed prisons, cut masses of staff and privatisation is happening in several prisons which is causing unrest within the prison population. I would not be surprised if the prisons kick off in the next few days too, adding to the problem.

Water cannons are not available and useless. Granted they are good for dealing with large groups, but there are several small groups in a built up urban environment which basically renders the thing useless.

Also to those saying go out and take pot shots. What about those on the same streets who have been chased from there house, out of their business etc. who will also be on the streets, ah well shouldn't have been there?

The question should be why did it take til today to mobilise 16000, ah yeah, Cameron didn't think it necessary to come back from his holidays. His speech was a simple exercise in spin, not discounting anything but not actually saying anything either. Anyways thats a bit too political.

The threats from authority have certainly have seemingly fallen on deaf ears
.

 

[ziggy©]

Agreed. If you're not a danger to the public you should be made to do proper decent CS that actually helps people. Prison should be about protecting the public from nutters because it does b****r all to rehabilitate the majority.

Growing drugs to supply to others is not a danger to the public?

 

[Hacker]

Another problem with this is that the police (i.e. the officers on the ground) have little if no experience of dealing with situations like we have seen over the last few days. It has been 25+ years since major riots across London and the most they have dealt with is student demos etc.

I was chatting to some old colleagues today and we were all saying how we would pitch in and help if required as we all have extensive experience in dealing with major public disorder (I used to be a riot training instructor) and would be able to pass on our experience to assist. Funnily enough I then saw this link about the Met calling for retired officers to help and the e-mails have been flying back and for.

 

[ding76uk]

perhaps we should release all the non violent offenders to make room for them - for example my mate maz got 3 months for intent to supply because he was growing a few dope plants and supplying his mates (he was hardly the medelin cartel) - he's out now but the low cat prisons are jammed with people like that who really should have got community service.

Sorry but he is drug dealing like the rest. That could cause more damage than nicking a pair of shoes. But hey he's your mate, of course he is "alright" not like the rest.

Sorry you cannot have your cake and eat it.

 

[Hacker]

Sorry but he is drug dealing like the rest. That could cause more damage than nicking a pair of shoes. But hey he's your mate, of course he is "alright" not like the rest.

Sorry you cannot have your cake and eat it.

It's not very often I agree with you ding but on this one.

 

[gingerweasel]

perhaps we should release all the non violent offenders to make room for them - for example my mate maz got 3 months for intent to supply because he was growing a few dope plants and supplying his mates (he was hardly the medelin cartel) - he's out now but the low cat prisons are jammed with people like that who really should have got community service.

Really... because I feel the exact opposite. Three months is a joke and sentences like this are a sign of how soft we've gotten. What's the point in sending anyone to prison for less than six months?

He knew it was illegal, he did it, he was banged up.

 

[Hacker]

The other point that seems to have been forgotten in the shooting that this guy was the subject of an obviously on-going investigation linked to Operation Trident that investigates black-on-black gun crime. For them to approach him with armed officers means they must have had credible intelligence that something was about to go down or that he was carrying.

 

[maddog.mark]

Sat up here in Norfolk I can't really offer comment on how such a level of disaffection can result in such terrible violence, I freely admit to being isolated from such deprivation. I sit shocked and saddened by the whole situation. :shake:

But don't worry apparently the ftse100 has gone up! Which for me speaks volumes. :bang:

I make no excuses for these mindless idiots they deserve the full force of the law as for me they have chosen to abandon policing by consent. Stay safe everyone who is too close for comfort to these terrible events.

 

[srichards]

If there is no room in our prisons perhaps we should ship them off abroad to foreign prisons?? We've got loads of people banged up here from abroad so some kind of exchange scheme seems sensible....

I'm sure we could pay the chinese to take our prisoners on the cheap. Their labour rates are much lower than ours. Would save us a fortune. They take a lot of our trash already...

 

[big soft moose]

Really... because I feel the exact opposite. Three months is a joke and sentences like this are a sign of how soft we've gotten. What's the point in sending anyone to prison for less than six months?

He knew it was illegal, he did it, he was banged up.

and he did his time , came out a reformed character and used the skills learnt working in the prison garden to help start a legit landscaping buisness.

I'm not saying he shouldnt have been banged up - what i'm saying is that someone with 30 canabis plants in his bathroom is less of a hazard to society than someone who think a good night out involves firebombing a sofa shop. Therefore if we are short of prison space we could release the former and put them on community service instead to make space to lock up the latter.

But maybe thats a bad example - we've got people in Cat C prisons for failure to pay council tax FFS, or for example take the white collar crimes like fraud - rather than sending them to a nice cushy cat C complete with games rooms and internet access why not give them 6 months walking arround in an orange boiler suit picking up dogpoop by hand (latex gloves conditional on good behaviour ) - its just as much of a punishment , and gives us the prison space to lock up the gangbangers.

 

[Splog]

If there is no room in our prisons perhaps we should ship them off abroad to foreign prisons?? We've got loads of people banged up here from abroad so some kind of exchange scheme seems sensible....

I'm sure we could pay the chinese to take our prisoners on the cheap. Their labour rates are much lower than ours. Would save us a fortune. They take a lot of our trash already...

I like this idea

 

[The23rdman]

Growing drugs to supply to others is not a danger to the public?

Someone growing a few plants for friends is no danger to anyone. If you think that makes them a 'dealer' then you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

community service doesn't have to be fun, you know. There are plenty of ****** jobs nobody wants to do and plenty of jobs nobody even thinks need doing. The reality is our prison system is overflowing and this would be a solution to actually doing some good.

By the way, I'm not suggesting just because you got convicted of a non-violent or public disorder crime you should immediately get CS over custodial. Not a chance. If you're a toerag with an attitude you get banged up and you can rot with the rapists and murders.

 

[The23rdman]

and he did his time , came out a reformed character and used the skills learnt working in the prison garden to help start a legit landscaping buisness.

I'm not saying he shouldnt have been banged up - what i'm saying is that someone with 30 canabis plants in his bathroom is less of a hazard to society than someone who think a good night out involves firebombing a sofa shop. Therefore if we are short of prison space we could release the former and put them on community service instead to make space to lock up the latter.

But maybe thats a bad example - we've got people in Cat C prisons for failure to pay council tax FFS, or for example take the white collar crimes like fraud - rather than sending them to a nice cushy cat C complete with games rooms and internet access why not give them 6 months walking arround in an orange boiler suit picking up dogpoop by hand (latex gloves conditional on good behaviour ) - its just as much of a punishment , and gives us the prison space to lock up the gangbangers.

Bang on agree.

 

[ding76uk]

It's not very often I agree with you ding but on this one.

You feeling OK mate?

 

[big soft moose]

Sorry but he is drug dealing like the rest. That could cause more damage than nicking a pair of shoes. But hey he's your mate, of course he is "alright" not like the rest.

Sorry you cannot have your cake and eat it.

If you cant see the difference between growing a bit of wacky backy for your mates and pushing crack on street corners then you should've gone to specsavers.

that aside the fact that he's my mate is irelevant because he isnt currently in jail - he did his time and came out 'reformed' (though he could have been equally reformed by community service)

my point is that people like him are less of a threat to society than the scum currently rioting on the streets - so if you dont have room to lock everyone up you have to prioritise

 

[neil_g]

are people just plain retarded (if legit)...

http://london.craigslist.co.uk/mob/2536072357.html

 

[TCR4x4]

are people just plain retarded (if legit)...

http://london.craigslist.co.uk/mob/2536072357.html

haha, Ill take 2.....


2 vans full of riot cops when I come to collect me phone.

 

[PsiFox]

You carry a loaded illegal gun, prepare to be shot by the police. I don't see that as a problem.

I see that as the solution to a problem

 

[gingerweasel]

If you cant see the difference between growing a bit of wacky backy for your mates and pushing crack on street corners then you should've gone to specsavers.

that aside the fact that he's my mate is irelevant because he isnt currently in jail - he did his time and came out 'reformed' (though he could have been equally reformed by community service)

my point is that people like him are less of a threat to society than the scum currently rioting on the streets - so if you dont have room to lock everyone up you have to prioritise

Of course there is a difference, in my mind the difference would be about two years. However each act is a crime and deserves punishment.

I'm not against community service but the reality is your friend had 30 plants and the judge had to make a call as to whether or not community service would be a significant deterrent for someone who in their eyes was dealing and making money from this. Do you think three months would stop dope dealers?

It's great that he is doing something more productive now by the way.

 

[Lynton]

and he did his time , came out a reformed character and used the skills learnt working in the prison garden to help start a legit landscaping buisness.

I'm not saying he shouldnt have been banged up - what i'm saying is that someone with 30 canabis plants in his bathroom is less of a hazard to society than someone who think a good night out involves firebombing a sofa shop. Therefore if we are short of prison space we could release the former and put them on community service instead to make space to lock up the latter.

But maybe thats a bad example - we've got people in Cat C prisons for failure to pay council tax FFS, or for example take the white collar crimes like fraud - rather than sending them to a nice cushy cat C complete with games rooms and internet access why not give them 6 months walking arround in an orange boiler suit picking up dogpoop by hand (latex gloves conditional on good behaviour ) - its just as much of a punishment , and gives us the prison space to lock up the gangbangers.

Maybe less of a hazard if you look at the immediate consequences........ and what follows is a generalisation and not aimed at you or your friend........

However the 30 cannabis plants he sells and makes some £, which gets invested in more cannabis plants.... before long he could have a couple of Vietnamese up in the loft tending to the cannabis farm (and I say vietnamese, because often it is illegal cheap labour that does the illegal work) and the dope junies, then don't get enough of a kick out of dope so diversify out into harder cat B and Cat A drugs and these come at a price, so how do they fund it????????? :shrug:

 

[The23rdman]

Maybe less of a hazard if you look at the immediate consequences........ and what follows is a generalisation and not aimed at you or your friend........

However the 30 cannabis plants he sells and makes some £, which gets invested in more cannabis plants.... before long he could have a couple of Vietnamese up in the loft tending to the cannabis farm (and I say vietnamese, because often it is illegal cheap labour that does the illegal work) and the dope junies, then don't get enough of a kick out of dope so diversify out into harder cat B and Cat A drugs and these come at a price, so how do they fund it????????? :shrug:

Again, you're talking from what experience?

 

[big soft moose]

Maybe less of a hazard if you look at the immediate consequences........ and what follows is a generalisation and not aimed at you or your friend........

However the 30 cannabis plants he sells and makes some £, which gets invested in more cannabis plants.... before long he could have a couple of Vietnamese up in the loft tending to the cannabis farm (and I say vietnamese, because often it is illegal cheap labour that does the illegal work) and the dope junies, then don't get enough of a kick out of dope so diversify out into harder cat B and Cat A drugs and these come at a price, so how do they fund it????????? :shrug:

fair enough in some cases - but i'm not talking about those cases when it comes to emptying the prisons - as i said we've got 100s of people locked up for stuff like tax evasion, shop lifting, benefits fraud, insurance fraud etc - and while they all deserve punishment they dont need to be locked up to be punished - as i said orange boiler suits and 6 month , 12th months whatever hard labour cleaning the streets, picking up dogs***, scraping chewing gum off pavements, scrubbing grafiti off brickwork, digging slime out of ditches, picking up condoms off beaches etc would be just as much of a punishment and deterent to reoffence.

 

[Lynton]

Again, you're talking from what experience?

:shrug:

Do I really need to provide links to all sorts of studies / evidence that shows that those who try "soft" drugs at an early age are generally more likely to progress to stronger drugs, which generally have a higher street price?

And generally, as they have spent their money on obtaining lower class drugs, they are left to "other resources" to fund the habit..........

Personally Dean, I don't really see where this is going, it's pretty much incontrovertible that in general junkies get hooked on more "sociably tolerated drugs" at first, and yes I will concede that not every dopehead becomes a heroin addict, however I am yet to meet a heroin addict (and I've seen a few) whose first experience of drugs was "the hard stuff"....

 

[theboss]

found this today

 

[Lynton]

fair enough in some cases - but i'm not talking about those cases when it comes to emptying the prisons - as i said we've got 100s of people locked up for stuff like tax evasion, shop lifting, benefits fraud, insurance fraud etc - and while they all deserve punishment they dont need to be locked up to be punished - as i said orange boiler suits and 6 month , 12th months whatever hard labour cleaning the streets, picking up dogs***, scraping chewing gum off pavements, scrubbing grafiti off brickwork, digging slime out of ditches, picking up condoms off beaches etc would be just as much of a punishment and deterent to reoffence.

Oh don't get me started on restorative justice........... Snow? What snow? Get the prisoners / community service to do it. I would be so rash as to step out and say get the unemployed yet employable to help out as well. (Sadly though when I was unemployed, I did offer to help out the local council with such mundane things as cutting hedges, verges, playing fields etc, however the cost of H&S training needed for me to ensure I would not touch fast moving metal bits, outweighed my usefullness)

 

[big soft moose]

I'm not against community service but the reality is your friend had 30 plants and the judge had to make a call as to whether or not community service would be a significant deterrent for someone who in their eyes was dealing and making money from this. Do you think three months would stop dope dealers?

I think 3 months (or for that matter a disgusting CS task) would make someone who's growing a bit of dope for personal consumption and for his mates think twice

in my mates case he was seriously unlucky to get ItS bcause although the figure 30 plants was bandied about in court it was more like 24 seedlings and 6 harvest plants - and he was supplying like two people once a month and not taking cash for it (he got caught because an ex grassed him up) and his breif did a ****poor job of defending him.

that said I know, and he knows, that what he was doing was illegal and it was a fair cop - and the boot in the ass that he needed to turn his life arround (more in terms of doing something with it than in terms of the dope)

so in cases like that i do think it works and CS would work equally well.

In the case of some scrote whos cooking up classic into rocks and then fleecing addicts and forcing young girls into prostitution to pay him , then no of course its a completely inadequate sentence - people like that need locking up for a long time , but often arent because the prisons are overcrowded which bring us back to my central point about the wrong people being locked up

(of course another option would be to take the iredeemable scum like huntley and bellfeild and shoot them in the head and dump their corpses in the sea , and make room in the Cat A prisons that way, but this would of course cause the liberal fraternity to have an absolute cow)

 

[big soft moose]

however the cost of H&S training needed for me to ensure I would not touch fast moving metal bits, outweighed my usefullness)

at the risk of going further off topic that sounds like an excuse from them - I do that kind of work with volunteers and the training required costs about £80 per person. If you find yourself unemployed again get your ass down to devon and give me a shout.

 

[Chris Primadona]

This one cracked me up!

 

[srichards]

There's a whole difference between weed and many other drugs. Most dope users don't rob, mug or get violent . Most serious thing that would happen is that they might raid your fridge or nick your crisps. It's how the drug makes people behave that is the problem. Alcohol is far worse for turning normal people into thugs and violent idiots.

I think home cultivation on a small scale should be legal. It would keep organised crime out of dope more and cut off one route to harder drugs. If you don't need to visit a dealer with access to harder drugs then there is less potential for experimentation or temptation.

 

[Treesie]

But don't worry apparently the ftse100 has gone up! Which for me speaks volumes. :bang:

Yep 96pts! Im a ftse follower

 

[Damian Brown]

My mate was working up a telecoms pole today and a large crowd came along and nicked his ladder leaving him stranded. This was in Walsall. I saw a larger than usual chav presence and more police too. I went past Birmingham centre today but had to avoid it, so all I saw was the Mailbox lined with vans and riot police and also vans all over the city.

Also in another area I drove through the muslim crowd and come out in force on the street to stop any potential looters. This was Witton, by the Villa ground in Birmingham.

It feels less safe than the threat of terrorism has us feeling.