So tell me more about TLR's please?

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Afternoon chaps & chapesses.

So, I have a yen to shoot square this year and in the next few weeks will be in a position to invest in something MF flavoured. My only previous foray into this world was one roll of film through a borrowed Mamiya C330, which was whipped back off me and sold when the owner realised he could get more than the 50-80 squids he thought it was worth when he dragged it from the loft for me to play with.

However, I loved using using it and love the TLR 'look' - yes it's a girl thing, I want something that looks properly old fashioned just for the sheer bloody pleasure of owning it. :oops: :$:D I know I can look at systems like Bronica SQ-Ai and I know they are excellent pieces of kit, but from a purely aesthetic point of view, they aren't doing it for me right now, so it is really a TLR system that I want atm. I may add such an item next year, when I am bored... just don't tell that Yves Geza fella :whistle:
Some background info - I have a Kodak Autographic that was gifted to me, together with a Box Brownie, by our aging mechanic at the garage we own [soon not to own :banana:] in return for doing some scanning/restoring/reprinting on some very old photos he was rather fond of. The BB doesn't seem to have a functioning shutter, which could explain the roll of film still in it, guessing it packed up in use [or I am failing to follow the instructions properly]. The Autographic looks gorgeous sitting in the cabinet, but I could strain my veg through the holes in the bellows. I also have a Duaflex, another camera that started life as my late Pa-in-laws and I plan on putting some film through it, just as soon as I can get hold of a spare spool for 120 spooling and an old roll of film as I suspect the light seals have gone, so it really is just to check it.

So, in some ways I am not short of MF kit of a sort, just short on properly functioning stuff.

Anyway, obviously I have been looking round and doing some reading and regardless of what you opt for in this field, there are plenty of good and bad comments across the internet about all of them. So, I thought rather then ask for 'opinions' per se in here, I would ask for information on which to base a decision on which way to jump. In nice easy words please :lol:

So, Here is the first request - I have looked at the Mamiyas, C220/C330 and the models around them - all well and good, I like them and have used one. However, they are not the only option. This will be a hobby camera, it won't get loads of use, so I don't really want to spend more than 200-300 squiddles. Can someone tell me about the Rollei models and Yashica models for example? Are there other makes I should be looking at? [before I forget, happy to budget a bit more for a CLA on anything I buy if necessary] What I need to know about is things like ease of use, common faults, general quality of available lenses [I am not expecting Leica quality lenses here btw, imperfect appeals to me], which models would fit into my budget range and so on.

More questions will probably follow, depending on the answers to this ;)
 
Yv said:
So, Here is the first request - I have looked at the Mamiyas, C220/C330 and the models around them - all well and good, I like them and have used one. However, they are not the only option. This will be a hobby camera, it won't get loads of use, so I don't really want to spend more than 200-300 squiddles. Can someone tell me about the Rollei models and Yashica models for example? Are there other makes I should be looking at? [before I forget, happy to budget a bit more for a CLA on anything I buy if necessary] What I need to know about is things like ease of use, common faults, general quality of available lenses [I am not expecting Leica quality lenses here btw, imperfect appeals to me], which models would fit into my budget range and so on.
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There's not really much between many of the TLRs out there. Condition is the most important consideration for purchasing a TLR, rather than brand. I'd be looking for a good condition Minolta Autocord, Yashicamat, Microcord, Rolleicord, etc. in the £100 range. Most of the TLR cameras have Tessar-type lenses that are more than capable performers.

I personally wouldn't pay as much as £200 for a TLR unless it came with a Planar/Xenotar lens (in which case it'd be a bit more than £200), a lot of other goodies (e.g., accessories, filters, etc.), or was in incredible condition.
 
Yv said:
Should have said the budget must include at least one lens, probably something of an 80mm kind of length.
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Well, you'll get two lenses with a Twin Lens Reflex camera usually. ;)

Seriously though, it's really only the later Mamiya TLRs that offer interchangeable lenses. TLRs usually only offer the choice of a fixed 75mm or 80mm lens, unless you want to spend a lot of money to pick up a wide or tele Rolleiflex.

If you want to be able to change lenses, the Mamiyas are basically your only option, except for some very obscure, hard-to-find cameras. Mamiyas are much bigger than most other TLRs though, which is why I wouldn't personally consider it as my main TLR.
 
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Well I was in your position once upon a time in wanting to go MF, and spent weeks deciding what to get and my final choice would have been the C220\C330 because of interchangeable lenses, and then I saw a SL66 going for a cheap price and got that instead, also bought a tele Rollei just for portraiture...horrible camera and swop it for a RB67 and then bought the Etri and after a while as the SL66 wasn't being used I sold it (and MF was dying then and it took a few months to sell through Jessops on commission)...... now it's a collectors item.
 
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skysh4rk said:
Well, you'll get two lenses with a Twin Lens Reflex camera usually. ;)

Seriously though, it's really only the later Mamiya TLRs that offer interchangeable lenses. TLRs usually only offer the choice of a fixed 75mm or 80mm lens, unless you want to spend a lot of money to pick up a wide or tele Rolleiflex.

If you want to be able to change lenses, the Mamiyas are basically your only option, except for some very obscure, hard-to-find cameras. Mamiyas are much bigger than most other TLRs though, which is why I wouldn't personally consider it as my main TLR.
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:lol: yeah I get that, not bothered about interchangeable per-se, but that does appeal about the Mamiyas in fairness. I didn't find the one I used that big, was happy to hand hold, but then I am coming down from effing great big gripped DSLR's with F2.8 zooms bolted to the front, so most stuff feels 'small' after that I guess. As long as I can chuck it in a girly rucksack, thats small enough ;)
 
Yv said:
:LOL: yeah I get that, not bothered about interchangeable per-se, but that does appeal about the Mamiyas in fairness. I didn't find the one I used that big, was happy to hand hold, but then I am coming down from effing great big gripped DSLR's with F2.8 zooms bolted to the front, so most stuff feels 'small' after that I guess. As long as I can chuck it in a girly rucksack, thats small enough ;)
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Mamiya TLRs are very big and heavy as TLRs go, but they also offer a lot of options that other TLRs don't (e.g., swappable viewfinders, bellows focusing, interchangeable lenses, 120 and 220 film, etc.). You'll have to decide whether their advantages are worth the increase in size and weight for you.

The Mamiyas have a great cost/performance ratio, I think.
 
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Good move Yv, in my opinion tlrs are the best bet for medium format shooting as you get a lot for your money and they don't have the weight and bulk of some of the other options.
I've had a 3 Yashicas, a D an original Mat and a 124g, all good with lovely sharp lenses. The Mat was my fave, it was a lovely, well made camera and the lens was awesome.
I have a Mamiya C220 and a C330 with a selection of lenses and they are a joy to use, the lenses are superb and the 55mm will focus to 6 inches.
I've also had a Rolleicord Vb which was small, light and brilliant and I currently have a Rolleiflex Automat which is superb but needs a service.

I believe the Minolta Autocord is very good but I haven't used one.

Personally I would suggest a Rolleicord. They are stunning little cameras and can be picked up for about a ton in good condition and if you are lucky for a bit more you can get a fully serviced one.

Just my thoughts, I'm sure others will suggest alternatives.

Andy
 
If you just want to dip your toe into the water start with a Yashicamat. Reliable and simple. Go for the four element Yashinon lenses (tessar type). Metering can be unreliable and shutters can run slowly as with all cameras of this age so check it out before buying. The earlier unmetered Yashicamat is regarded as better built than the later and more common Yashicamat G by some commentators. Otherwise it should be plain sailing.

Expect some interest when you are using it, I generally get a couple of togs come up to chat about the camera.
 
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seagull could be an option, though I don't know much about them personally. Only ever played with my dad's mamyia's, but quite a while back, I also enjoyed using a bronica etrs, lovely camera.
 
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Nice as the C220 and C330 are, they are big, compared to the Rolleiflex and YashicaMat. Of which I have the 124G which is a pleasure to use. Even on long days out.

Not having interchangeable lenses is also fine. I do have 2 macro lens pairs as well as filters and a hood. All with a neat mini bayonet mount.
 
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Yv said:
Afternoon chaps & chapesses.

general quality of available lenses [I am not expecting Leica quality lenses here btw, imperfect appeals to me], which models would fit into my budget range and so on.
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Umm, I think you're gonna struggle to buy something less than flippin good tbh...lol, unless its a lomo type Lubitel plastic lens job most TLR tackle is excellent optically.

You can rule a few systems out just buy deciding whether you can manage with a standard lens or not.

I had a c220 for a while, it wasn't my thing, I found the bellows focussing to be a bit cumbersome, handheld and at extension it was a bit unbalanced, front heavy.

If I was to try another it'd be a standard lens Yashica or an Autocord or something.
 
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I love my Rolleicord Va dearly. Has all the aesthetic charm and classic status you're after, and quality by the bucketload. And in Brian Mickleboro the perfect person to get it in tip top condition for a reasonable price. Any of the Rolleicord V series are a good choice as not too old either compared to previous models. Of the others of similar standing, I've always been impressed by images from the Minolta Autocord.
 
Yv said:
I know I can look at systems like Bronica SQ-Ai and I know they are excellent pieces of kit, but from a purely aesthetic point of view, they aren't doing it for me right now
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Then you would probably like my Bronica S2:

11860090876_229dae6b5d_z.jpg


TheGreatSoprendo said:
Any of the Rolleicord V series are a good choice
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I love my Rolleicord V. I have often stated that it's the camera I would keep if I could only have one. I would even choose it over my Rolleiflex. I think its Schneider lens is the sharpest lens I own.


Steve.
 
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As @skysh4rk suggests, the condition of the actual camera for sale varies more than the qaulity possible from different models; so I'd recommend buying from a dealer that'll give a few months warranty. Dealers I have experienced personally are www.ffordes.co.uk and http://www.collectablecameras.com/

For what it's worth my TLR is a Yashicamat 124G and results can be seen here https://www.flickr.com/search/?q=yashicamat&ss=0&ct=0&mt=all&w=33186310@N03&adv=1

I think the only advantage I would get from changing to another model (apart from the interchangeable lens Mamiyas) would be, possibly, a brighter screen - but again this seems to differ from one example to another of the same camera. I handled a Rolleicord recently with a very bright screen but have also seen others with very dim screens.
 
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Given how much weight you're putting on aesthetics (something I heartily agree with) I think I'd rule out the Mamiyas. They're not nearly as pretty as a Rolleicord/flex style TLR, I don't think.
 
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Some fascinating reading here guys, huge thanks so far.

I do agree, the Rolliecord/flex is by far the prettiest of the options, but none of them are far behind purely on looks alone. The Mamiyas certainly have practicality on their side, albeit at a weight/size premium. Yashica looks like good value for money.

One thing I will probably do is buy from a shop, I have been using ebay for research on prices and to just look at pretty pikchures, but would prefer to buy from a shop, or perhaps someone here if something is being sold at the time that fits the bill.

@Steve Smith Thats a very pretty camera, but not quite pretty enough for me right now :D
 
I have a Mamiya C220, it's smaller and lighter than the C330, and unlike the C330 you have to cock the shutter after winding on. Also you don't have interchangeable focusing screens, no big deal. I have 55mm, 80mm and 105mm lenses. The 55mm is my favourite.

I used to own a Yashicamat 124G, but it had an accident, its front caved in when a gust of wind blew over the tripod it was mounted on. Years later I looked for a replacement, but the camera's I looked at all had spidery fungus in the lenses, perhaps I was just unlucky. I much prefer the C220. It's main use now is shooting Rollei IR400 during the summer. Also I'd never again want to be restricted to one fixed lens.
 
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Rolleiflex all the way. Light and lovely to use. The yashica feels agricultural and clanky but the viewfinder is much better.

I found a hazy automat for 99 so I'd reckon you could get a decent one for your £200.

You can get replacement viewfinder screen and mirrors for the automats so they're easy to get up to the viewfinder quality of the yashicas.
 
A size comparison.

All-3 by andysnapper1, on Flickr

The Rolleicord is a little smaller than the 'flex and the YashicaMat is exactly the same as the 'Flex.
 
Yv, some very good advice above. For my 2p worth, the Rollei/Minolta/Yashica TLRs although getting on, all offer a very compact and relatively light weight carry anywhere camera. The Mamiya's have great flexibility but that comes at a price in terms of size and weight. That said, all are great TLRs and choice comes down to personal preference.

In summary you can't go wrong with any of them, just get a TLR, you won't regret it, they offer a fantastic shooting experience in my view.
 
Andysnap said:
A size comparison.
....

The Rolleicord is a little smaller than the 'flex and the YashicaMat is exactly the same as the 'Flex.
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Have you been raiding my camera cabinet?!!

Do you use the Mamiyaflex much? I have one but I haven't used it. I also have a C3, a C33 and a C330. The C330 gets most use. I also have a Rolleicord, a Rolleiflex, a Yashhica TLR and a Russian Lubitel - so I am well catered for in the TLR department!


Steve.
 
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I've only used the Mamiyaflex once so far, but I did only get it a couple of months ago. There may be a problem with the spacing when you wind on, I need to do more tests first though. I like it, its simple, quite light but well made.
 
I started with a Yashica Mat, and it was an utterly wonderful camera. The build quality was so-so, but the screen was bright, the handling was good, and the images were fantastic. It gave me the TLR bug and I've had several Rolleiflex's and a Rolleicord since, and they are my go-to choice of medium format camera.

I've posted this a couple of times in the last year, and I still think it's true - I think so many people have suggested Yashica's as starter cameras, that the second hand market for them is so much stronger, and has been inflated as a result. My bet would be on a £125-175 Rolleicord IV or V/Va/Vb, that will be far better built, have a better lens, although it'll probably have a darker screen than the Yashica (although this can be improved with cleaning, and 3rd party screens).

There's a clean Rolleicord Vb for £175 on the MWClassic website, and there seems to be a lot of <£150 Rolleicords on eBay. If you pick one up for ~£110 on eBay, factor in another £50 for a CLA from Brian Mickleboro if it needs one, and you'd have a very tidy camera for an outlay of £160 (and it will hold on to its value). It's a bizarre situation when some Yashicas (especially the 124/124G models, which are newer but have the same lens as the bog standard Yashica Mat) are going for more money than Rolleicords.

EDIT:
A tidy looking Va for £169: http://vintageclassiccamera.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15&products_id=5583

A Vb type 2 for £149 with a few cleaning marks: http://www.ffordes.com/product/15021711103431
 
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It's a bargain really. I bought my YashicaMat 124G brand new in 1982 for £79. Which works out as £4400 in today's money. I also bought my pocket calculator at the same time. Which might account for any inaccuracies in my calculations.
 
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Got my first TLR last week - Yashica 124 G - on this very forum - £65.

LOVE IT!
 
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I am being REALLY good - looking round some of the camera shop websites and not buying. Just out of curiosity because they haven't been mentioned, because its cheap and cheerful by shop standards, and because a forum search can only find a single mention of such a camera - what in the bloody blue blazers is a Beautyflex? I mean I found a website dedicated to the umpteen very similar models they seemed to have produced, but that doesn't say much. Worthwhile camera or expensive cabinet filler? [must also STOP looking at really cheap, £10-£30 oddities that I don't want to use, just want to fill a display case with in my new office :lol:]

http://vintageclassiccamera.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=5585
 
@Yv, if you want to borrow a camera or two to try before you buy I have both a Mamiya C220 and C330 and also a Yashica 124G you can have a go with.
 
ianp5a said:
It's a bargain really. I bought my YashicaMat 124G brand new in 1982 for £79. Which works out as £4400 in today's money. I also bought my pocket calculator at the same time. Which might account for any inaccuracies in my calculations.
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£79 in 82 works out at £264.56
 
RaglanSurf said:
@Yv, if you want to borrow a camera or two to try before you buy I have both a Mamiya C220 and C330 and also a Yashica 124G you can have a go with.
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I might take you up on that Nick once we are into April, March is a killer month. Thankyou :D

medwaygreen said:
@Yv, This is close to you and could be obtained for circa £70. The camera looks in good condition,but,close enough for you to go and see.(y)


http://www.gumtree.com/p/non-digital-cameras/yashica-mat-tlr-vintage-camera./1104321663
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:lol: Geographically close, but I could probably get up to see @Andysnap in the same sort of time it takes to get down East London some days. Good idea though, thanks Richard, much appreciated.

Does anyone that lives down this neck of the woods know if the old camera shop in St Albans still exists? Pretty sure the one in Hampstead does old stuff too [no not the George Michael snappy snaps :lol: ], so as I am down that way most days this month, I might pop in and see if they have anything to look at/play with.
 
Dunno about St Albans but the camera shop in Watford high st has some film gear....plenty of lenses (not sure about plenty of MF cameras) but although I look in there occasionally over the the last 6 years....... to me they are all over priced.
 
excalibur2 said:
Dunno about St Albans but the camera shop in Watford high st has some film gear....plenty of lenses (not sure about plenty of MF cameras) but although I look in there occasionally over the the last 6 years....... to me they are all over priced.
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Cant help but feel anything in Hampstead will be the same, but still worth a look I guess ;)
 
I brought a Yashica Mat 124G a few years ago after asking a similar question; the meter doesn't work properly (at all!), but it is a brilliant camera. The quality of the shots is beyond anything else I own. It only cost about £90 on eBay too :D
 
I had a 124g and there was something about it I didn't like, not sure what it was but I much preferred the original Yash Mat. Probably just me as it took really good images and was well made, it just didn't have the 'look' ....
 
Does anyone that lives down this neck of the woods know if the old camera shop in St Albans still exists? Pretty sure the one in Hampstead does old stuff too [no not the George Michael snappy snaps :LOL: ], so as I am down that way most days this month, I might pop in and see if they have anything to look at/play with.
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I don't live in that neck of the woods but get to St SAlbans a couple of times a year and usually go have a look at what Clarkes Camera Centre has in they only really do seconhand film gear and servicers and the prices were mostly pretty reasonable I've brought a few odds and ends there TLR's is the sought of thing you might expect to find there. It is Photocraft in Hampstead looked in the window when I've been working in Hampstead lots of film gear so worth a look at least.
I would treat those links as info and actually go there and have a rumage.

Couple of weeks ago CKO in Dorking had a C220 in the window there prices are usually pretty good.
Teddington Photographic have a C330 for £135 that looked good when I was there a couple of weeks ago its still on their list as well as several of the lenses circa £125 and Guildfords LCE has a late looking 135mm for the Mamiya cameras at £80 which is a good price.
 
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I have used most of the varieties of Rollie. Early Hasselblad, Yashicamat and Minolta Autocord.
the sharpest lens of the lot was the planar on a 3.5F Rolleiflex , closely followed by by the minolta autocord. The bottom of the list were the various Yashicamats. Though all were extremely capable.
For me Hasselblads were the exception...I could not hold them steady, my natural reflex coincided with the complex mirror and shutter flips.
The minoltas had two other distinct advantages and one disadvantage. The advantages were that the entire lens panel moves on a giant helical focus ring so is alwas exactly parallel to the film plane. (None of the others do this) The second advantage is that the film feeds differently so that it passes over the bend at the base after the shot is taken. On the others the film on the second shot after the camera has not been used for an hour or two takes on a kink, which can spoil the focus. On critical work professionals wound through the second shot and let it waste. Rollei brought out a glass plate that could be placed in the focal plane, so that the film could be held flat between it and the pressure plate, on some of their cameras. It was especially recommended for aerial photography as film suck could cause the film to bulge.
The only disadvantage of the Minolta is that over time the grease in the helical threads could thicken requiring a service to free them. Some are absolutely still fine in this regard but it is worth checking.

Value wise for its quality the Minolta is a winner.
It was the last medium format that I kept after selling my last three rolleis, I eventually sold it to a photographic student at college. Complete with a set of rollei filters and closeup lenses etc.
 
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