So so disheartened with my studio shots. Cannot seem to eliminate blur. Please help.

how long have you been doing photography? what do you think would be a good duration to stop action on a childs moving hand?
 
Phil Young said:
So if one were to want something with a fast flash duration, what kind of speed would one look for?
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Easiest way to think is that your shutter speed only controls the amount of ambient light you aperture controls your flash exposure. Speedlite and some studio flash durations can be in the 10000th of a second range (or even faster) so no matter what shutter speed you use the full flash duration will be put out.

The reason for HSS in most cases is to kill ambient light so you can shoot flash at small apertures on a bright day (due to power output of flashgun) if you get your shutter speed fast enough.
 
ding76uk said:
Easiest way to think is that your shutter speed only controls the amount of ambient light you aperture controls your flash exposure. Speedlite and some studio flash durations can be in the 10000th of a second range (or even faster) so no matter what shutter speed you use the full flash duration will be put out.

The reason for HSS in most cases is to kill ambient light so you can shoot flash at small apertures on a bright day (due to power output of flashgun) if you get your shutter speed fast enough.
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Hope that makes sense, but I have been Xmas shopping this morning, so who knows. As is demonstrated by my quoting my post rather than editing it.:runaway:
 
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ding76uk said:
Get off your high horse! He asked a technical question not an opinion on his technique!
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Get off your own high horse. He also wondered why his shots were dull and lifeless.

-

Now, I'm not really a kids person. But I can't help feeling, with all this techno speak for someone who is a new studio photographer, my approach when I have photographed kids in the past has been to wait until they have calmed down a little? And snap them when they're not running about manically? I know it's a little outside the technical box (and photographers LOVE technical boxes, I know), but if you're working within the limitations of kit, this might be an easier approach than investing more money in stuff.

All else fails, bribe them with something? Tell them if they sit still and do as you tell them for half an hour then they'll get to play on the playstation or something? I dunno. I'm the bad auntie who gives her friends kids E numbers before handing them back over, so I might not be the best role model.
 
ding76uk said:
Easiest way to think is that your shutter speed only controls the amount of ambient light you aperture controls your flash exposure. Speedlite and some studio flash durations can be in the 10000th of a second range (or even faster) so no matter what shutter speed you use the full flash duration will be put out.

The reason for HSS in most cases is to kill ambient light so you can shoot flash at small apertures on a bright day (due to power output of flashgun) if you get your shutter speed fast enough.
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Thanks for the explanation. I always thought the shutter controls all light coming through to the sensor.
 
Phil Young said:
Thanks for the explanation. I always thought the shutter controls all light coming through to the sensor.
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If we're being simplistic* about flash, typically x sync speed is the fastest point where your shutter exposes the whole frame in one go. Normally your shutter exposes your sensor through a moving slit as one shutter curtain follows the other, at the point the gap is so big all of the sensor is exposed, we can fire a very fast burst of light (x sync).

The problem with some cheaper studio flash is that the burst of light is not as short as it could be, so as in the OP's case, rather than 1/250 (the x sync) they need 1/160 in order to allow the flash to burn enough for the exposure. The other downside of that for the OP is that the flash burns long enough to show movement.

*There's more complex stuff than this, done by measuring when the brightest part of the burn is and timing the flash to make faster sync's available, or using the speedlight trick of actually burning (actually flashing) the flash for longer so that it'll burn throughout the shutter movement.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Sure. Why not?
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Of course that relies on the ambient not being bright enough to record that movement.

Or put another way, lots of high speed photography (bullets going through apples etc) are shot on Bulb in completely dark rooms.
 
[Post crossed with @Phil V 's]

No.

The blur is caused by the ambient light.

Turn all the lights off and you'll be sorted.
 
Phil Young said:
So here's a scenario...

I regularly shoot indoor kickboxing. My speeds are never high enough to freeze the action really...even at ISO 12800.

If I got an sb910, could I use this to freeze a kick that would usually require about 1/1000th with 1/15th and use a low aperture & reasonable iso?
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Of course, photographically it gets more complicated than that.

Once you've removed all the ambient light, your flash is your only light source, using it close enough so the power is turned right down gives you a small pool of hard light. Is that what you want to show?

If not (presumably) you'll be using slightly brighter (so slower with a speedlight) exposures and modifiers. To do this well (properly) can get expensive quickly.
 
Phil Young said:
So the answer to my situation would be to use HSS (bouncee) instead in conjunction with ambient light to get my 1/1000th???
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Dunno. Never watched indoor kickboxing.

It's likely that 1/250s would freeze it as long as the ambient were making no contribution to the exposure.

Turn your ISO down and see what happens. Yes, down.
 
Ok so...take all ambient away with iso (down) and shutter speed (up) and then use flash at my fastest sync (to cut out the ambient, not freeze movement) to light subject?

I could probably do this with 2 bounced jessops on full power...
 
Phil Young said:
Thanks for the explanation. I always thought the shutter controls all light coming through to the sensor.
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Me too. I've learnt something today!
 
Phil Young said:
Ok so...take all ambient away with iso (down) and shutter speed (up) and then use flash at my fastest sync (to cut out the ambient, not freeze movement) to light subject?

I could probably do this with 2 bounced jessops on full power...
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You don't have to cut all ambient just underexposed by 1.5-2 stops works well.

Here is an example. I shot at 1/200th but due to underexposed background the actions is frozen.

http://500px.com/photo/49559704
 
dinorock said:
surely you can't "high speed sync" studio flash? only strobes (flashguns) or am i missing something here?
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With studio strobes it's called "hyper sync" or "tail sync." It's a bit of a different animal than HSS but it allows the use of faster SS's.
You're relying on the longer flash duration being there the entire time the shutter opening is traveling. Usually have to be well above x-sync and it also reduces effective flash power similar to HSS.
 
ding76uk said:
You don't have to cut all ambient just underexposed by 1.5-2 stops works well.

Here is an example. I shot at 1/200th but due to underexposed background the actions is frozen.

http://500px.com/photo/49559704
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Not quite due to underexposing the BG...
The frozen motion is due to a fast flash duration, which probably means the flash wasn't on full power, which also means you didn't need a lot of light. The higher SS prevented more blur being recorded during the ambient exposure... Also, timing the shot for the peak of the jump means all of the motion/speed slows down during the direction change.

Usually flash doesn't freeze motion...not much above ~1/250 equivalent. That's because to use lower flash power you have to need less flash, which means there is more of an ambient exposure being recorded.

This is all for IGBT type strobes/speedlights. Most (capacitor discharge) studio heads max out ~1/300-1/500 effective.
 
Ok just done a test - this is going to change my life as I know it, I'm sure!

Here is a shot taken with 3 Jessops flashes on full power, in an almost dark room. I had the flashes fire on 1st curtain sync and then moved the lens away from the target immediately after the flashes fired.

Exif:
4s / f8 / ISO100.

1479537_10153665548670305_1622589691_n.jpg


1524668_10153665548660305_242179810_n.jpg


I would never have gone below my normal speeds before - but there we go, with enough flash power I've frozen the subject in a 4s exposure. Amazed :)
 
Phil Young said:
Ok just done a test - this is going to change my life as I know it, I'm sure!

Here is a shot taken with 3 Jessops flashes on full power, in an almost dark room. I had the flashes fire on 1st curtain sync and then moved the lens away from the target immediately after the flashes fired.

Exif:
4s / f8 / ISO100.

1479537_10153665548670305_1622589691_n.jpg


1524668_10153665548660305_242179810_n.jpg


I would never have gone below my normal speeds before - but there we go, with enough flash power I've frozen the subject in a 4s exposure. Amazed :)
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by jove i think he's got it well done :-)
 
sk66 said:
Not quite due to underexposing the BG...
The frozen motion is due to a fast flash duration, which probably means the flash wasn't on full power, which also means you didn't need a lot of light. The higher SS prevented more blur being recorded during the ambient exposure... Also, timing the shot for the peak of the jump means all of the motion/speed slows down during the direction change.

Usually flash doesn't freeze motion...not much above ~1/250 equivalent. That's because to use lower flash power you have to need less flash, which means there is more of an ambient exposure being recorded.

This is all for IGBT type strobes/speedlights. Most (capacitor discharge) studio heads max out ~1/300-1/500 effective.
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But the same shot without the under exposure would have motion blur. The under exposure allows the flash duration to do its job
 
Phil Young said:
I guess you haven't ever been taught anything before...or maybe you just aren't used to owning up to something you didn't know ;)

Anyway - for those that did explain it, thanks.
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i was trying to help just this thread started as a studio thread and got mish mashed into a speedlight thread which caused bundles of confusion sorry if my comment sounded harsh maybe i should have put a smiley after it glad you have it now . have an absolutely fab xmas cheers mike. :):):)
 
dinorock said:
i was trying to help just this thread started as a studio thread and got mish mashed into a speedlight thread which caused bundles of confusion sorry if my comment sounded harsh maybe i should have put a smiley after it glad you have it now . have an absolutely fab xmas cheers mike. :):):)
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The OP was answered and then went more detail which is great and this place is about, it's helped at least 3 people, including the op so don't be a scrooooge :):):)
 
Phil Young said:
Looks to me like your speed is too slow and her hand moved faster than your shutter could freeze... I wouldn't shoot kids slower than 1/250th
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Shutter speed has ZERO influence on a shot like this.
 
Phil Young said:
The best solution is to usea faster speed. Try syncing your flashes with the pop up at 1/250th. If they sync, get better triggers. If they don't, think about some lights that will perhaps?
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No it's not - In the studio Shutter speed matters not a jot. See Gary Edward's post
 
wonderer said:
Thanks to all who have replied so far, I genuinely apreciate the advice. I will be trying all suggestions tomorrow to see if I can achieve better results. I have never been able to get a faster SS than 1/160 on my Nikon D7100, does anyone know if this is the fastest it can be used with studio strobes? I cannot seem to find an absolute answer.
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As suggested above if you take a shot without flash at the subject exposure, you should just have a black frame. That shows the only thing lighting your subject is the pop of flash. Flash fires at a much faster rate than your shutter speed so even although the shutter speed is 1/125th you'll find as noted above the flash duration is much faster - so the only speed that matters is the flash duration (not the shutter speed).

My Elinchrom BxRi 500w lights won't freeze action despite a reported duration around 1/1500th sec! (Gary Edwards is good at explaining this stuff)
The Elinchrom Quadras will though and have durations as short as 1/60000th (and are expensive).

Small strobes have very short flash durations but lack the power and control of a studio head.

Regards the SS you are getting (1/160th) its probably due to the triggers you own. I have had the same issue.

Do a lighting course and you'll learn more.
 
Just realised I'm late to this party lol
 
Wowzer that was a long thread to get through. Hope the thread starter as got some help from this.

:)

Gaz
 
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EOS_JD said:
As suggested above if you take a shot without flash at the subject exposure, you should just have a black frame. That shows the only thing lighting your subject is the pop of flash. Flash fires at a much faster rate than your shutter speed so even although the shutter speed is 1/125th you'll find as noted above the flash duration is much faster - so the only speed that matters is the flash duration (not the shutter speed).

My Elinchrom BxRi 500w lights won't freeze action despite a reported duration around 1/1500th sec! (Gary Edwards is good at explaining this stuff)
The Elinchrom Quadras will though and have durations as short as 1/60000th (and are expensive).

Small strobes have very short flash durations but lack the power and control of a studio head.

Regards the SS you are getting (1/160th) its probably due to the triggers you own. I have had the same issue.

Do a lighting course and you'll learn more.
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The Flash duration is shown in T5 times. This is a higher number than the actual usable flash duration, known as T1 time. To get the proper flash speed in use take the T5 time and as a rough calculation, divide by 3. This means that the Bxri has a full flash duration (shutter speed) of around 1/500th of a second. This is where things take another turn.

With studio flash heads, the flash duration is generally fastest at full power. As you decrease power the flash duration gets slower. So by 1/8 power the duration has become substantially longer, hence why you say the Brxi is not freezing action.

Speedlites on the other hand are the opposite. The flash duration gets faster as the power goes down, so it adds another layer of confusion. When using speedlites they tend to have fast durations anyway, but the less power, the faster the duration.
 
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