SNP in Scotland

[Dale_tem]

Obviously the Conservatives don't know that and it will hit them like a plank when it all happens.

Or do they fully understand this? Hmmm I wonder.

 

[Llamaman]

Obviously the Conservatives don't know that and it will hit them like a plank when it all happens.
Or do they fully understand this? Hmmm I wonder.

I think they've let UKIP back them into a corner and are floundering around like a goldfish out of its bowl.
Or are you suggesting that they know we're leaving the EU anyway because of this and so have offered a referendum safe in the knowledge that it's an utterly pointless exercise, promised purely to deceive the gullible in an act of electoral dishonesty?

 

[Dale_tem]

I think it is more like a machine that one thing happens, something else will happen and so on.

You say we will have to leave and we will get kicked out? Yet the EU doesn't want us to leave and is trying to prevent us leaving.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/ad2cc7a2-f599-11e4-bc6d-00144feab7de.html#axzz3Zq6Z0u6z

The EU needs are money, Cameron is pushing for a better deal and has gotten all the big guns out. I don't know how the relationship with the EU will go, we will either get into a better position or we will leave. I believe we will stay with a better deal for everyone in the UK.

 

[Llamaman]

Yes, there's a negotiation to be had. But I very much doubt that giving the UK an opt-out of the ECJ will be on the table.

 

[big soft moose]

. They're in Westminster on a false ticket.

A bit like farrage being an MEP

 

[big soft moose]

The EU needs are money, Cameron is pushing for a better deal and has gotten all the big guns out. .

Excellent , its about time we invaded france again - they still owe us a shed load of cash for the pas de calais and half of normandy

 

[StewartR]

I'm not saying spurging money on the welfare state is a necessarilly a good idea, but large-scale infrastructure investment is a proven way of building economic recovery, yet the Tories refused to even countenance it - despite the fact that there are glaring gaps in Britain's infrastructure that desperately need investment.

Agree totally. And yet, ironically, an awful lot of people seems to be objecting to investments such as HS2, nuclear power stations, airport expansion, tidal power scheme, etc etc.

The trouble with "large-scale infrastructure" is that you have to build it in somebody's back yard.

 

[chrism_scotland]

Agree totally. And yet, ironically, an awful lot of people seems to be objecting to investments such as HS2, nuclear power stations, airport expansion, tidal power scheme, etc etc.

The trouble with "large-scale infrastructure" is that you have to build it in somebody's back yard.

Agreed there does seem to be a general reluctance these days to anything, I can understand some of the criticism of HS2 due to cost but its only implementing a rail network the likes of which Europe has had for decades!

 

[Llamaman]

Agree totally. And yet, ironically, an awful lot of people seems to be objecting to investments such as HS2, nuclear power stations, airport expansion, tidal power scheme, etc etc.

The trouble with "large-scale infrastructure" is that you have to build it in somebody's back yard.

I'm not totally convinced by HS2 in particular (I think there are perhaps better projects for rail improvement) but agree in principle to the rest of what you say.

It's hard to overcome NIMBYs with the small majority the Tories now have. The coalition had a majority of ~40 and could have got a lot done.
I fear another 5 years of no spending will leave a huge task for whoever wins in 2020.

 

[Steep]

Agree totally. And yet, ironically, an awful lot of people seems to be objecting to investments such as HS2, nuclear power stations, airport expansion, tidal power scheme, etc etc.

The trouble with "large-scale infrastructure" is that you have to build it in somebody's back yard.

The trouble with back yards is it's always yours and not theirs it gets built in. Propose a nuclear power station in Battersea and watch the storm erupt. Want Nuclear subs? only if you park them outside Westminster.

HS2 is the exception that proves the rule. HS2 has the potential to bring North and South together like never before but it's only going to Birmingham (and later Leeds), places that are only a few hours away even by normal speed trains and it's going to cost billions.

 

[jakeblu]

Liberty are against it, but highlighted the points raised by the Conservatives.

Racpscallion & llamaman - Either way, I'm happy with the new bill and the removal of the human rights bill.

They wont get the removal of the human rights bill through parliment even with a three line whip and really such a bill ought to be a free vote anyway. So whilst you may be happy with the proposal, I've a feeling you going to be disappointed in the futre

 

[Llamaman]

They wont get the removal of the human rights bill through parliment even with a three line whip and really such a bill ought to be a free vote anyway. So whilst you may be happy with the proposal, I've a feeling you going to be disappointed in the futre

They might get it through the commons with the DUP and UKIP, but they need to be quick before the backbenchers get too confident.
The problem will be getting it past the Lords.

 

[Llamaman]

How have we ended up discussing this in a 'SNP in Scotland' thread? This bill doesn't affect Scotland!

 

[jakeblu]

They might get it through the commons with the DUP and UKIP, but they need to be quick before the backbenchers get too confident.
The problem will be getting it past the Lords.

I would think it unlikely but of course not impossible. There are too many pro european/echr tories to get it through even with dup and ukip support. Would the DUP even support a withdrawal from the echr? i know their stance on the eu but not the echr

 

[jakeblu]

How have we ended up discussing this in a 'SNP in Scotland' thread? This bill doesn't affect Scotland!

I think this bill is central to scotland and the continuation of the union

 

[big soft moose]

Agree totally. And yet, ironically, an awful lot of people seems to be objecting to investments such as HS2, nuclear power stations, airport expansion, tidal power scheme, etc etc.

The trouble with "large-scale infrastructure" is that you have to build it in somebody's back yard.

The trouble with HS2 is its is an unecessary waste of cash that benefits only london - that money would be better spent upgrading rail infrastructure in general, and building new cross country links so that it is easier to travel east to west (or vice versa) without having to go miles out of your way to change.

I'm not opposed to theothers you mention so long as they are sited intelligently (ie not slap bank in the moiddle of an internationally important SSSI )

 

[Llamaman]

I would think it unlikely but of course not impossible. There are too many pro european/echr tories to get it through even with dup and ukip support. Would the DUP even support a withdrawal from the echr? i know their stance on the eu but not the echr

That's a good point - if repealing the HRA does lead to us leaving the ECHR (not a given, but quite possible), then that would break the Good Friday Agreement - not somewhere the DUP will want to go, so they would need to have the ECHR's acquiescence before passing the bill.

Gove's got his work cut out.

 

[kendo1]

Seems like a complete waste of time, money and resources for us up in Civilisation, a couple of hundred miles from the action.
As for those in the North...
I mean Aberdeen, Inverness, Kirkwall and Stornoway for instance.

 

[dejongj]

Are

The trouble with HS2 is its is an unecessary waste of cash that benefits only london - that money would be better spent upgrading rail infrastructure in general, and building new cross country links so that it is easier to travel east to west (or vice versa) without having to go miles out of your way to change.

I'm not opposed to theothers you mention so long as they are sited intelligently (ie not slap bank in the moiddle of an internationally important SSSI )

??? Surely the trains go in both directions. How will it only benefit London?

 

[StewartR]

The trouble with HS2 is its is an unecessary waste of cash that benefits only london - that money would be better spent upgrading rail infrastructure in general, and building new cross country links so that it is easier to travel east to west (or vice versa) without having to go miles out of your way to change.

No, it wouldn't be better spent that way. What most people don't understand is that railways are only really good at three things:
(1) moving people at high speed between the centres of large cities;
(2) moving very large numbers of people into the centres of large cities;
(3) moving large quantities of freight.

HS2 is designed to do (1) and to free up space on the existing railway for (2) and (3). East to west links don't really do any of those things. That doesn't mean I think the case for HS2 is solid - I really haven't looked into it too closely - but I'm very confident that east-west or cross-country links wouldn't be any better as investments.

I'm not opposed to the others you mention so long as they are sited intelligently (ie not slap bank in the moiddle of an internationally important SSSI)

Most people would agree. But they'd also add, so long as it's not slap bang in the middle of their back yard.

 

[big soft moose]

because theres no earthly reason for anyone in london to go shopping in birmingham, and no one is going to choose to commute from london to birmingham (as relative house price would make that a ridiculous idea)... all its doing is making it easier for people from birmingham to spend their money in london instead of locally (and also encouraging london centric commuterdom)

 

[big soft moose]

No, it wouldn't be better spent that way. What most people don't understand is that railways are only really good at three things:
(1) moving people at high speed between the centres of large cities;
(2) moving very large numbers of people into the centres of large cities;
(3) moving large quantities of freight.

HS2 is designed to do (1) and to free up space on the existing railway for (2) and (3). East to west links don't really do any of those things. That doesn't mean I think the case for HS2 is solid - I really haven't looked into it too closely - but I'm very confident that east-west or cross-country links wouldn't be any better as investments.
.

So if you want to move freight from say Harwich (where lots comes in from europort) to say Bristol , its more economic to ship it into london, arround london and then out of london again rather than having an east west link ? (in actuall fact it would probably go be road via the A14 and the M6/5)

equally if you are in say Exeter ,,and want to go to Norwich (or vice versa) , its better that you go into london and change, than to go direct (and take some insanely long time and get charged the earth._ Again I'd probably drive (or possibly fly)

 

[StewartR]

So if you want to move freight from say Harwich (where lots comes in from europort) to say Bristol , its more economic to ship it into london, arround london and then out of london again rather than having an east west link ? (in actuall fact it would probably go be road via the A14 and the M6/5)

Yes, absolutely. There is a very good railway from Harwich to London, there is a very good railway from London to Bristol, and there is a very good railway linking the two across London (the North London Line) which was substantially upgraded during the 90s an 00s in order to increase freight capacity.

equally if you are in say Exeter ,,and want to go to Norwich (or vice versa) , its better that you go into london and change, than to go direct (and take some insanely long time and get charged the earth._ Again I'd probably drive (or possibly fly)

Again, yes, absolutely. Exeter and Norwich are small towns that simply don't generate enough traffic to support a regular service linking them directly. And if you can't justify a regular service, it's not really worth bothering with. This is the kind of journey which railways simply don't do very well. But London is big enough that there's enough traffic to support good services from London to both Norwich and Exeter, and so - if you insist on going by train - the best way is via London.