Snow. Let's all laugh at the English. You drive a fancy 4x4 but are clueless.

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dinners

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Phil
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Before you jump on me for the title of the thread - I'm English but now live in rural Scotland.

Normally (up here) we have to deal with snow for a long time before the 'national' news tells us snow is causing a problem. In other words - it's not really an issue unless it affects England.

This (being an Englishman) annoys me in two ways.

On the one hand - I have to defend my fellow countrymen by explaining to 'some' folk up here (not all) that the volume of traffic and the lack of funds for road preparartion means bad weather impacts more on travel South of the border than it does up here.

On the other hand - I have to say, that your average car driver up here is justified in having a chuckle at those people down South. In particular those people who drive the type of car that really shouldn't struggle in the conditions they experience.

As I said - it's not a dig and I've tried to take a balanced view.

There's certainly a lack of understanding amongst some people up here about English roads and that annoys me however I think there is some truth in the view that we should all be required to be more adept at driving in winter conditions.

It all cropped up today (as it does every year) and i thought it worthy of some banter....
 
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Phil, interesting views. I'm Scottish, but live in Englandshire - mainly London way for over a decade, and now 'in the north' (notts :) )according to my Southern (softy) mates :)

England cant justify investing in gear like colder countries, as it just haven't have the frequency or volume of the white stuff. That's probably an obvious point, but what I think they'd be much better doing, from a personal responsibility POV rather than anything government funded is simply to be sensible and spend a half hour reading some basics about winter driving (this is ice and fog and other things as well).

I have noticed a marked difference in driving styles from the north of the UK to the south (i used to do 'top to bottom' trips very regularly), being much more aggressive down south (not exactly laid back in the rest of England), get people out of their car and they can be the nicest people you could meet. Very strange.

Down south, I used to dread a cm of snow on the M4 as it would mean hours going a few junctions with people spinning wheels in first gear, really clueless about the basics. Sitting 2 feet away from the car infront at 'just' 40mph as it starts snowing, but they are on a motorway where the limit is 70, so they 'must do 70'....frightening. The same people then complain they have taken 4 hours to get home due to a pileup, caused by....people sitting 2 feet away...That sort of improvement would help more than investing in snow ploughs IMVHO. Goes for fog as well, and even 'just' rain. Education, education, education....sorry wrong forum :)

I notice this less in Scotland, it's far from perfect, don't get me wrong, but I see a difference anyway. Less aggressive in general, but still not short of halfwits ;)

I hate to generalise, but sometimes you just notice trends in areas for various things.

So to summarise - personal responsibility rather than a money issue. Go a long way.

What do you reckon about that?
Cheers.
 
They are called Chelsea Taxis for a reason and although I lived in a rural area near a school half the mum's used them to drive the kids to and from but had no idea, watching them try to park was hilarious, and then you get the snow and they expect to be able to drive as normal on ordinary road tyres
My old golf was fantastic in the snow and ice, but then as you say it's down to knowing how to drive in the conditions safely
Having just moved the great thing is I am within walking distance of work
which is going to be a real bonus on frosty/snowy mornings
 
Personal responsibility or lack of willingness to accept it is a bugbear of mine, that and common sense.

I've seen the behaviour variations you speak of and I think to some degree it's down to sheer volume of traffic. Waiting politely at a junction for someone to let you out anywhere south of Watford will see you grow old sitting there, bulling your way out up here as you'd have to do down South gets you a dose of the finger, but that driving style is becoming more common here now as our traffic volumes grow. Unfortunately the tail hugger is also becoming more prevalent here which brings its' own problems, a hundred miles North of the nearest motorway and damned few dual carriageways means that there's more difficulty overtaking but that doesn't stop some folk crowding your back end and trying even in the worst of weather, I'd like to say they're all Englishmen but it wouldn't be true, some of them will be Scots who've picked up bad habits living down south :D
 
"Having just moved the great thing is I am within walking distance of work "

Me too :) I moved a couple of years back, and can walk to work in 5 mins, get shopping delivered, so we ditched the car (not literally ;) ) about a year ago, and find ourselves much more relaxed (and more rich) in general. I used to enjoy driving as well, but it turned to a task years and years ago.
Sometimes we could do with the car on a Sunday when the train or bus doesnt suit exactly with our plans, but I'm talking a 15 minute 'inconvenience', nothing that justifies all the costs that goes with a car now.

We are not typical though, and very fortunate we had the chance to do this, I feel for people who rely on it nowadays, timewise and costwise - just not funny is it :(
 
There are 2 problems for 4x4 drivers. #1 is their own fault, the "I'm in a 4x4, I'm invincible so can drive like a tw@!" mentality which can get them into trouble (or worse) along with others caught in the backlash. #2 isn't as much their fault, they're the "I'm in a 4x4 so can get through the snow, no problem!" brigade. Fine, but you can't see the verges any better than most other drivers so are just as likely to ditch the wagon as Mr Mondeo. You're also in a big, heavy vehicle so are likely to have more trouble when braking than Mrs Clio! You'll also end up stuck when Mr Mondeo has abandonned his car when he's got stuck and Mr Audi (behind you) can't get out of your way!
 
Even if it's not snowy, a lot of these chelsea tractor drivers are an inconsiderate pain! I drive around country lanes a lot and nearly always have to pull my little fiesta over to allow them through; no way are they going to get their precious tyres dirty -or even risk getting stuck in a tiny bit of mud :gag: !
 
THREE main problems!!!

An awful lot of 4x4s (especially of the Chelsea tractor variety) have tyres fitted that are far quieter on good, dry, warm roads than off road ones but are almost useless when the going gets a little less perfect! Chunky off road patterns may be a bit noisier on the road and may offer less grip when cornering or braking hard on tarmac but they do work better on that tarmac than the road tyres work on grass, mud, ice and snow!
 
Can I just dispel a myth about 4x4's?

Having four wheel drive does not help you one little bit on the slippery stuff. Not a jot. Its all about grip, all four wheel drive means is you have two extra powered wheels to slip when you use your right foot.

Most 4x4 vehicles are big and heavy so when there is no grip they're much more likely to skid - more momentum. What helps is having the right tyres fitted, they're the bits that are in contact with the road.

Over many years driving I am of the opinion that the best type of car for snowy conditions is something light and front wheel drive, with decent skinny tyres (skinny tyres are better able to sink/dig into the snow and find grip)

I've been offroading for over twenty years and driven all types of 4x4 and generally they're all pretty useless in snow and ice unless they have the right tyres fitted. Driving style is of course the other big factor, and I have to agree there are a lot of people out there who haven't got a clue, hardly surprising though considering that for a long time the emphasis has been on teachingpeople to pass the test and not how to actually drive properly and safely.
 
Some good points.

So a false sense of security - or at least an unrealistic expectation of a particular vehicle seems a common theme.
 
I have to agree, it's down to the type of tyre rather than the number of powered wheels. That and the soft squidgy thing that thinks it is controlling the vehicle ;)

Oh, and the reason there is far less tailgating in Scotland is that you can drive miles and miles without seeing another vehicle.
 
It isn't just Scotland of course, it's any rural location where snow and ice are normal in the winter, where roads are too narrow for a safe slide, where there is no gritting and no help when things go wrong.

In the early hours of yesterday morning my youngest son and I trailered his Landie to such a place in North Yorkshire - had to go down a 20% hill with a light covering of snow. 1st gear in low ratio and a lot of care did the job. A few hours later, in heavy snow we had to go back up, without the Landie on the back and thought that we could get up the hill - but we were wrong, and eventually managed to get the rig straight and reverse it for over a mile until we could turn round.

Trying to get traction going forwards really needed locking diffs, which my car doesn't have. Trying to steer it, either forwards or backwards, requires limited slip diffs. The Landie would have been better going up the hill, my own car is better when it isn't going up a hill. The point is that it takes a proper 4WD with high and low ratio, proper tyres and a driver who is highly skilled (my son, not me, he has to go there nearly every day) and a bit of luck to navigate some roads with even a light covering of snow. Chelsea tractors, with their unskilled drivers, hard rubber motorway tyres and electronic control systems aren't just useless, they're worse than useless.
 
Ste Manns said:
Can I just dispel a myth about 4x4's?

Having four wheel drive does not help you one little bit on the slippery stuff. Not a jot. Its all about grip, all four wheel drive means is you have two extra powered wheels to slip when you use your right foot.
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4wd wins on traction over 2wd. Take a vehicle that has switchable drive to its front wheels and try it on a snowy hill in 2wd and 4wd and try it. A friend has a Suzuki sx4, in the snow a couple of years ago it would not move in 2wd, in 4wd it pulled away without spinning any of the wheels. Land Rovers are the same, they are really not very good on climbing slippery stuff with the front wheels disengaged from the drive (used to have a SIIA with a Ford V6 many years ago).

I tend to use my Volkswagen Caravelle in the snow. That's rear engined and four wheel drive and it has got up roads that the police were in the process of closing as impassable due to snow. I pulled out on a one in six hill from stationary behind a stuck car and made my way to the top on ordinary van tyres, much to the surprise of the young lady police officer who told me no-one could get up it so they were closing it :D

In the world of 2wd, I'll take my Imp in slippery conditions over just about any FWD car. I have made the rear of the car heavier and the front lighter for better traction though, and increased the ground clearance to almost 10" at the sills ..
 
I agree with many of the comments here. As an Englishman who spends a lot of time in Scotland (and is trying to move there) the understanding of driving in poor conditions appears, in my experience, to be much better there than in parts of England.

It is understandable - if, most years (and in some places in Scotland, every year) you have to drive when it is icy or in snow, you pretty quickly start to treat the conditions with caution. Not that this is an excuse for those who rarely see ice and snow driving like idiots - you may never driven on ice, but you know it is slippery.

I don't know if it is pure lack of understanding or if some people think they do not have to make any allowance for snow and ice because they are a 'good' driver.

Very much agree that small front wheel drive cars with thin tyres are good in snow.

Dave
 
is this not the same thread as the "This s##t country" one?

but yes i agree with some of what the OP says, ive got friends in Lossiemouth and i dont think ive ever heard them complain about weather disruption..
 
onomatopoeia said:
4wd wins on traction over 2wd. Take a vehicle that has switchable drive to its front wheels and try it on a snowy hill in 2wd and 4wd and try it. A friend has a Suzuki sx4, in the snow a couple of years ago it would not move in 2wd, in 4wd it pulled away without spinning any of the wheels. Land Rovers are the same, they are really not very good on climbing slippery stuff with the front wheels disengaged from the drive (used to have a SIIA with a Ford V6 many years ago).

I tend to use my Volkswagen Caravelle in the snow. That's rear engined and four wheel drive and it has got up roads that the police were in the process of closing as impassable due to snow. I pulled out on a one in six hill from stationary behind a stuck car and made my way to the top on ordinary van tyres, much to the surprise of the young lady police officer who told me no-one could get up it so they were closing it :D

In the world of 2wd, I'll take my Imp in slippery conditions over just about any FWD car. I have made the rear of the car heavier and the front lighter for better traction though, and increased the ground clearance to almost 10" at the sills ..
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We arent discussing setting off, we're discussing driving along. If you're driving along and you hit the slippery stuff then no amount of driven wheels will help you or provide any extra grip, that is my point. The only thing that can give extra grip are the tyres, the skill comes from reading the road conditions and driving accordingly and this is sadly a rare skill these days, new drivers simply aren't taught this.

When I was learning to drive I had my own little car and I went out with my dad who had over fifty years experience. I drove in fog, heavy rain, snow and everything in between. All my instructor did was teach me how to parallel park etc, and that seems to be the way with new drivers these days they just learn how to pass the test, which I believe is a big part of the problem. My dad taught me skid control (off the road of course) and how to drive in different conditions. If you've never skidded in a car how are you supposed to know what to do when it happens for real?
 
Nod said:
There are 2 problems for 4x4 drivers. #1 is their own fault, the "I'm in a 4x4, I'm invincible so can drive like a tw@!" mentality which can get them into trouble (or worse) along with others caught in the backlash. #2 isn't as much their fault, they're the "I'm in a 4x4 so can get through the snow, no problem!" brigade. Fine, but you can't see the verges any better than most other drivers so are just as likely to ditch the wagon as Mr Mondeo. You're also in a big, heavy vehicle so are likely to have more trouble when braking than Mrs Clio! You'll also end up stuck when Mr Mondeo has abandonned his car when he's got stuck and Mr Audi (behind you) can't get out of your way!
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As a teenager I taught myself all about driving in snow in empty car parks on fresh snow fall. My eldest son has done the same.
 
Ste Manns said:
Over many years driving I am of the opinion that the best type of car for snowy conditions is something light and front wheel drive, with decent skinny tyres (skinny tyres are better able to sink/dig into the snow and find grip)
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:plusone: Even easier if it's a front wheel drive automatic [like an old 1980s Renault 5] where left foot braking not only helps you change direction but can give you a limited slip differential effect ;)

onomatopoeia said:
In the world of 2wd, I'll take my Imp in slippery conditions over just about any FWD car.
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I think I still prefer my current Issigonis Mini on snow and ice - downhill as well as uphill! :p

Steep said:
Personal responsibility or lack of willingness to accept it is a bugbear of mine, that and common sense.
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You'd love London in a bit of snow! Using the Mini a couple of years ago I rejoiced at its small size because the latest depths of pathetic failure seems to be that one just abandons one's Audi/BMW/Mercedes where it stops! If that's diagonally across the carriageway on a main road hill, so be it! Reverse out the way? Park safely? Roll a few yards backwards? That's for the Untermenschen - you know, the sort of chavs who drive their Minis up the curb, along the pavement, past the obstructions ... :bang:

BTW, you can ignore Nod's contributions to this thread! :exit: He owns an otherwise lovely MX5 ... which I owned before he did! In the same cold snap two years ago, I sat on a frozen one in forty incline - effectively a flat road - trying every Production Car Trial trick I knew and going nowhere - until I turned round and drove round the block! :lol:
 
I learnt to drive in the worse winter we had for a long time in a ford fiesta. It was a week long intensive course and that week happened to have 3 foot of snow on every road

I now also own a 4x4 with all terrain tyres, which handles very well in the snow.

However this isn't all down to the vehicle. I know how to drive properly!

I still love watching all the people in thier range rovers and new discoveries sat spinning four wheels with the revs going through the roof.

My rear wheel drive 3.5t LDV Luton van also copes very well, even with road tyres... Again, because I can drive, not because of the vehicle.

I think skid pan/snow simulation driving should be compulsory in the process of learning to drive. As should night and motorway driving, but that's a whole new thread
 
Two things wind me up here,

Firstly, when people say they own a 4x4 and its a Range Rover sport or Porsche Cayenne, it just annoys me. Quite simply they don't, and their cars are more suited to cruising around in London.

Secondly, We get green peace complaining about proper 4x4 owners nearly all year and guess who wants digging out when it gets a bit snowy? The hippies in their stupid electric things, thats who.

If you want to tax them feel free, don't come crying when you cant get out of your driveway!
 
I had a series 3 landrover which was fine in snow but the best car I ever had for winter conditions was an old fiat panda 4x4 followed by a subaru justy, both small and light, I now have a 14 year old nissan micra which is ok as long as the snow is not too deep, good tyres are the key, if the weather is bad I stay at home.
 
joebh123 said:
Two things wind me up here,

Firstly, when people say they own a 4x4 and its a Range Rover sport or Porsche Cayenne, it just annoys me. Quite simply they don't, and their cars are more suited to cruising around in London.

Secondly, We get green peace complaining about proper 4x4 owners nearly all year and guess who wants digging out when it gets a bit snowy? The hippies in their stupid electric things, thats who.

If you want to tax them feel free, don't come crying when you cant get out of your driveway!
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Except they are not, not in any weather conditions, they are almost totally useless in reality, they create congestion [because their drivers cannot get them through gaps], and cause mayhem most of the time. Then, come that snowy weather and they are dumped where ever the idiot behind the wheel can't move it from :bang:

You might get the impression from this that I don't like these monster so called 4x4's with sportspack that get used for the school run and doing lunch at Harrods ;)
 
Yv said:
Except they are not, not in any weather conditions, they are almost totally useless in reality, they create congestion [because their drivers cannot get them through gaps], and cause mayhem most of the time. Then, come that snowy weather and they are dumped where ever the idiot behind the wheel can't move it from :bang:

You might get the impression from this that I don't like these monster so called 4x4's with sportspack that get used for the school run and doing lunch at Harrods ;)
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I agree with you there on some levels. If you want a 4x4, get a proper one.
 
I've got a proper one, great off road, and on road is like **** of a shovel, tree huggers will not like the 12-15 to the gallon though :)

Also great protection for the little one, dicked boy racer in his corsa will get mangled by it.

Range Rover Sport 4.2L Supercharged..... Ummmmmmm lovely
 
well my RWD 3ltr auto toyota granvia with general grabber tyres all round is absolutely useless in snow
as soon as you put it in drive ( without touching the throttle ) the wheels spin and there's nothing you can do about it
on the odd occasion we do get snow it stays at home
on the other hand my 1.8 sport honda accord goes really well in snow with no issues at all

another point is we have a generation of drivers up until the last couple of years who have never had to drive in bad / snowy weather conditions because from the mid 90's or so up until the last couple of years there hasn't really been any in england worth talking about, my wife being one of them and when the snow comes she won't drive until it clears up
 
Studi0488 said:
I've got a proper one, great off road, and on road is like **** of a shovel, tree huggers will not like the 12-15 to the gallon though :)

Also great protection for the little one, dicked boy racer in his corsa will get mangled by it.

Range Rover Sport 4.2L Supercharged..... Ummmmmmm lovely
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Thats not a proper off road car, you know.
 
I live on a single track road, never gets gritted and my 4WD A3 with winter tyres is more than capable. A few neighbours have Chelsea Tractors (X5, RR Vogues etc) yet it always seems to be me reversing for them. I still hate snow though, we've had ice and snow since Saturday. I can drive in snow but it's just a complete pain.
 
joebh123 said:
Two things wind me up here,

Firstly, when people say they own a 4x4 and its a Range Rover sport or Porsche Cayenne, it just annoys me. Quite simply they don't, and their cars are more suited to cruising around in London.

Secondly, We get green peace complaining about proper 4x4 owners nearly all year and guess who wants digging out when it gets a bit snowy? The hippies in their stupid electric things, thats who.

If you want to tax them feel free, don't come crying when you cant get out of your driveway!
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I take it you've never been to Goodwood Festival of Speed. I don't like the Cayenne as they are just plain fugly, but Porsche have given passeneger rides on their stand year in year out since the vehicle was launched aand not really the best of conditions for Lord March's grass neither.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhhIzVshm-I
Been 6 times in the last 9 years half of which have been subject to heavy rain aand never seen one get stuck yet.
 
nilagin said:
I take it you've never been to Goodwood Festival of Speed. I don't like the Cayenne as they are just plain fugly, but Porsche have given passeneger rides on their stand year in year out since the vehicle was launched aand not really the best of conditions for Lord March's grass neither.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhhIzVshm-I
Been 6 times in the last 9 years half of which have been subject to heavy rain aand never seen one get stuck yet.
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Wow a muddy field, how inspiring. A fiat panda 4x4 could get through that :lol:
 
joebh123 said:
Wow a muddy field, how inspiring. A fiat panda 4x4 could get through that :lol:
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Not as fast and not carrying as many people, though. In fact after the heavy rainfall I've seen at Goodwood, I doubt a Fiat Panda could manage it, the wheels would be totally sunk.
 
Or this:

Patrol1resized.jpg



Grabber AT2`s on, diff locks all round.


bling now gone, superb off road. It won`t defy physics, but I welcome anyone to tell me that their wifes Micra will go where this goes, they won`t,end of.

Most 4x4 drivers have no idea how to drive on anything other than city streets, don`t tar us all with the same brush please.
 
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If you haven't got locking diffs and/or Stig-like driving skills you could always sling a set of snow-socks in your boot to get you out of the white stuff.

Not used them myself, but they come recommended by work colleagues (and Auto Express like them too):thumbs:
 
Yves Geza said:
BTW, you can ignore Nod's contributions to this thread! :exit: He owns an otherwise lovely MX5 ... which I owned before he did! In the same cold snap two years ago, I sat on a frozen one in forty incline - effectively a flat road - trying every Production Car Trial trick I knew and going nowhere - until I turned round and drove round the block! :lol:
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Your bouncer needed to bounce more, or go and sit in the boot :naughty:. I take it the rear tyres were down to 5psi already (I worry about them coming off the rims below that).

On my road car letting air out of the tyres makes no difference, they are very low profile (265/35R18) and the sidewalls are so stiff that they don't deform and you can actually drive it on "flat" tyres. Absolutely no traction on snow, even letting the clutch up gently with the engine idling and no throttle can spin the wheels in some conditions. Consequently I don't use it in snow.

I take your point about going downhill, that is a problem. With no weight at the front, use of the brakes on an Imp is not advised in anything other than a straight line in snow. I tend to go down hills slowly, using the handbrake.
 
onomatopoeia said:
Your bouncer needed to bounce more, or go and sit in the boot :naughty:.
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When I arrived at work, having driven round the block, we had to do that to get the b*****d across the dropped curb and the pavement into the car park!

It took a bit of explaining to two workmates of what was needed! :cuckoo::lol:

onomatopoeia said:
I take your point about going downhill, that is a problem. With no weight at the front, use of the brakes on an Imp is not advised in anything other than a straight line in snow. I tend to go down hills slowly, using the handbrake.
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In a different world, I found a real advantage to front wheel drive.

When all else fails, and you're having one, you can spin or handbrake the car, and go in backwards. Unlike an Imp, all the expensive stuff is at one end ... there's a cheap end you can smash up!! :lol::lol:
 
I own a Discovery td5 II my second in 15 years.

Some of the comments I've read here are laughable, they really are.
They are an automobile that is very very popular with drivers all over towns /country and a bit of both (include myself here)

As for 4*4 causing road holdups that is the drivers fault not the bloody car.

My only road into town was blocked by "towney cars" that had been abandoned in the flood not too long ago. I smile at them sympathetically as I drive around their marooned flooded cars while they phone home on their mobiles to get a tow. Possibly someone with a Chelsea tractor.:lol:

Indeed I have helped one or two including a lad who bogged his car down near Hay Bluff a few weeks back driving off the narrow road into the soft verge. He came over to where I was taking some shots of the semi wild ponies and asked for a tow. I enquired if he had a tow rope, "no" was his reply, that's ok I have one in my Discovery I replied. Pulled him out in less than two ticks , he was very relieved and thankfull as it can be a very desolate area in winter.

Not to mention when driving on roads or motorway I can see well up the road for any likely problems, I can see over the hedge, (for possible photographic opportunities) people in "towny cars" tend not to pull out in front of me, and it's very comfy on long journeys and very quiet.



Land Rover the best 4*4 by far......pretty much bang on statement.






Getting_some_dirt_under_the_wheel_arches_near_Loch_Awe.jpg
 
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