Snow Leopard killed

SFTPhotography said:
Couldn't they use a tranquilliser instead. Obviously the safety of people has to come before anything else but surely tranquillising the big cat does the same and still keeps people totally safe.
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Apparently it was getting dark, and the tranquilliser, would have taken to long to work, which reads, I'm finishing my shift and I want to go home to watch I'm a celeb.
 
Geoff Moore said:
Apparently it was getting dark, and the tranquilliser, would have taken to long to work, which reads, I'm finishing my shift and I want to go home to watch I'm a celeb.
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That is the most stupid comment I have seen, they had already spent a long time trying to get him back into his enclosure.
The zoo was closed, a tranquiliser would take a while to work I doubt anyone wanted him shot but they had to make a decision.
I have no idea how enclosed the zoo is, but if there was a risk of him escaping into the surrounding countryside can
you imagine the public uproar.
My heartfelt sympathy goes to the keepers who looked after him, they must be devastated
 
Maybe I am being thick but if they are willing to shoot the thing dead, surely they could risk a higher dose/fast acting tranquilliser to deal with it more humanely in the off chance it may survive that.

Or maybe if they tranq'd it earlier.

I totally get they had to do something, and am grateful they did if it meant the public were at no risk, but surely there are other fast ways to neutralise an dangerous animal without having to exterminate it.
 
SFTPhotography said:
Maybe I am being thick but if they are willing to shoot the thing dead, surely they could risk a higher dose/fast acting tranquilliser to deal with it more humanely in the off chance it may survive that.

Or maybe if they tranq'd it earlier.

I totally get they had to do something, and am grateful they did if it meant the public were at no risk, but surely there are other fast ways to neutralise an dangerous animal without having to exterminate it.
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A quote from someone else where, more knowledgeable

Firing a tranquiliser would have caused the animal to run. Even if the dart had missed or if the animal hadn't received the full dose it would have caused it to run. Just down the bank behind the snow leopard enclosure, right outside the zoo, there is a large college, just past that there are family homes, and beyond that is the busy town centre. Even if the tranquiliser dart had hit its target and the animal had received the full dose, as the vet said, it would have taken too much time for the drug to take effect. It is almost certain that Margaash, an adult male snow leopard, would have encountered people. Just imagine the backlash if someone had been severely injured or a child had been killed and it was discovered that the zoo hadn't made that responsible decision to euthanize.
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The last 2 animals that have escaped from zoos have been shot by marksmen a female wolf at CWP and a lynx from Borth
The owners had no say in the matter it was an outside decision in these cases, so if he had escaped the outcome would have been the same
 
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SFTPhotography said:
Couldn't they use a tranquilliser instead. Obviously the safety of people has to come before anything else but surely tranquillising the big cat does the same and still keeps people totally safe.
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pity the 7 billion people on the planet come before the 3999 snow leopards left

Geoff Moore said:
Apparently it was getting dark, and the tranquilliser, would have taken to long to work, which reads, I'm finishing my shift and I want to go home to watch I'm a celeb.
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Theres more dangerous things lurking around the Dudley area than a snow leopard
 
Gremlin said:
A quote from someone else where, more knowledgeable



The last 2 animals that have escaped from zoos have been shot by marksmen a female wolf at CWP and a Cheetah from Borth
The owners had no say in the matter it was an outside decision in these cases, so if he had escaped the outcome would have been the same
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Sounds like the correct action was taken.
 
jamesev said:
pity the 7 billion people on the planet come before the 3999 snow leopards left
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Most of which are either in captivity or in remote sparsely populated areas
 
Gremlin said:
Everyone makes mistakes, one zoo keeper paid with her life
Be great if everyone was perfect and got it right all the time
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Sorry Ingrid but some things are the basics!
 
I read the article and the animal was rightly shot in my opinion there was to much risk of it attacking some one. The fault and guilt lies with the zoo and the stupid keeper.
 
Mr Bump said:
The fault and guilt lies with the zoo and the stupid keeper.
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You know the keeper then? Mistakes happen. In some people’s jobs other people (human or non-human) suffer or die. A little thought would tell you there are some circumstances where it is possible the keeper was not at fault.

Edit: typo.
 
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sphexx said:
You know the keeper then? Mistakes happen. In some people’s jobs other people (human or non-human) suffer or die. A little thought would tell you there are some circumstances where it is possible the keeper was not at fault.

Edit: typo.
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What has knowing the keeper got to do with anything?
If keeper leaves the enclosure open, in what circumstances would it be possible that the keeper was not at fault?
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
What has knowing the keeper got to do with anything?
If keeper leaves the enclosure open, in what circumstances would it be possible that the keeper was not at fault?
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Well, off the top of my head, he/she may have had a stroke/epileptic fit/diabetic faint at the time of passing through the door. All I am saying is that it easy to rush to judgement without knowing the circumstances. Ideally there would be some fail safe system here (maybe involving “air-lock” type door system) but that would be the responsibility of the employers/authorities not the keeper’s.

Of course we are relying on the press report that ”the keeper left the door open” and the press is always accurate, right? :)
 
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If they had to shoot it, would it not have made more sense to shoot it in the leg/s which would severely impede its mobility and then possibly tranquilize it ?
 
I live within a mile of the Zoo which is next to a endless housing and the Town centre so I guess it would have been pretty bad if it had got out ! It would have most likely got mugged and shot anyway. It's still a real shame though, on a plus point the local scum have been shooting each other as well for sometime !
 
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Professor1991 said:
If they had to shoot it, would it not have made more sense to shoot it in the leg/s which would severely impede its mobility and then possibly tranquilize it ?
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I highly recommend you read the books of Jim Corbett (eg Maneaters of Kumaon etc) to see how active big cats can be when wounded :( .
 
Tranquilliser can take a supprising amount of time to work, always assuming they hit the animal in the first place and that the dart gives the full dose (they often dont) In any case the cat will run. At this point you now have a dangerous animal running away like the clappers and you dont know if it's had the dose or not, around the corner might be children playing.
You just cant take the risk with peoples lives. Yes it's sad it had to die, but if it's your children nearbye would you take the risk? I wouldn't.
 
Guys this s incredibly sad,I've been to dudley a few times, adored seeing the snow leopards amazing to be close to one while having all those emotions of it shouldn't be here it needs to be running about a mountain The zoo, as above, is pretty much surrounded by 'erm dudley and urban areas.

I'm completely torn here, part of me feels as with James we are doing ok us humans,part of me would be appalled by the loss of a human life maybe a child and the devastation caused to a family. I'm very unsure if I can separate the grief I'd feel from the loss of this cat to a human llfe. unknown to me The human life is more tangible the cat was jaw droppingly beatutiful, This exact cat,is/ was one of the most stunning animals I have ever seen if not the most stunning. Brad's almost humorous post above says much,cat would be shot or mugged by the locals kids heel bent on doing each other no good,man it's all so sad

Is there a case recorded of snow leopard ever attacking man?? i've not researched but think I've read somewhere they haven't. It is a big cat and sure has potential to be dangerous and obviously we are dealing with a very unique situation with all manner of stressors to provoke the animal to attack I've got half a hunch this might also be the case for the european Linx shot a while back as well. A surmised danger but no base to kill,yet it is to be done. I might be wrong here,someone will put me straight....the linx was real hard for me it should actually be here it has as much right as any of us to live on this island

I don't have any answers here,my gut instinct is that every course of action. before killing was probably taken and on every level I wish it hadn't happened. It's hard though when an individual of very rare species is sacrificed on the premise it might hurt an individual/s of another species,which is systematically breeding out of control,devastating whole ecosystems and wiping out other species like we have a bottomless pit to extinguish.It's also hard because the species doing the killing ie us is solely responsible for a snow leopard being in a cage in dudley. The cat has done nothing wrong ,but paid with it's life

I def have no answers. I can't blame the keeper even if they did leave the door open if a keeper is to blame he or she will be beyond devastated, let's face it guys whom work with animals almost invariably adore them( there are always morons). Again, I also feel keeper not to blame as the fault is with the enclosure,It should be utterly impossible to leave said door open by design no rocket science here.

It's interesting we all give our various views,not only on how much we value the animal kingdom against humanity but how the folks involved might have done better. Yet in a situation like this once the cat is out,it's likely everyone involved had no experience to draw upon what so ever. i or you might have as much experience,sure this happens now and then always will,but it's so infrequent, who has that knowldge to make the right moves at the right time to catch a big cat and return it safely to it's enclosure??

I've made an assumption here,we probably don't and never will have a crack big cat swat team on standby in the UK ready to jump into action with their incredible depth of knoweldge and skill set. ,so next time we'll probably see the exact same result

This one is just plain sad,tare ya guts out sad,as with the others. and all but worse is it'll happen again,:(:(:(.

ERE's a question for ya guys............;)
If we lived with apex predators, had bears lynx etc here, and had not extinguished them from our island.........................would we be so quick to kill.???????????? We'd be in bloody uproar if the guys over in the Hymalayers killed all the snow leopards,that are a threat to their children huh????? What makes us so bloody important?????????? Where does this assumed "right" to live here without apex predators come from????

Every snow leopard in the Himalayers doesn't eat man,( I'll stand corrected if there is a case!!) Every lion in Africa doesn't eat man,every linx in europe doesnt eat man, every tiger in india does not prey on man Simply,every apex predator that occurs with man in an ecosystem isn't utterly hell bent on preying on man !!! . Yet something conceivably dangerous here is virtually under a death sentence if it gets a sniff of freedom
Sure I know dudley zoo it's urban I visited as a kid when they had cuddles have been back as an adult it's not an ideal place to have a snowleopard loose . But bigger than this incident is really what i'm asking you to reply to

There is this attitude here in blightly that no apex predator can co exist with us, it's terrible really, . shockingly so. Folks live with bears tigers leopards all over the world,they don't kill em all if they aren't in a cage

There will always be conflict sure, and casualties on both sides,but it is not just OUR island...........(. ok my island :p LMAO )......... or our planet...................... we have to have animals too and some will see us as their prey some capable of eating us won't

but we have to have them, for better or worse

Sorry for going on........................ man that was an amazing animal to be in the presense of
gutted!!

stu
 
jamesev said:
pity the 7 billion people on the planet come before the 3999 snow leopards left
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Reducing that ratio by a couple of billion or so would do the planet an awful lot of good.

What a terribly sad story.

Although I must admit when I saw the title yesterday, I thought that Apple had shut off one of their old OS's.
 
Maybe it's possible that professionals within this sector are more able to make a decision as to the safest way of dealing with this unfortunate situation. Bt having said that, maybe we should just put a message out to random internet forums when we need to make a decision, what could possibly go wrong... I mean how bad did it go the last time we had a referendum of the nation as a whole :D
 
Professor1991 said:
If they had to shoot it, would it not have made more sense to shoot it in the leg/s which would severely impede its mobility and then possibly tranquilize it ?
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Really? Shoot it in the leg?? Oh dear, I love these animals, in fact I sponsor one somewhere for a monthly fee, but you do not mess with them in the vicinity of humans. I assume you are a marksman who can hit a moving target the size of a snow leopard leg at distance with 100% accuracy. I assume you aren't a professor in animal disablement? :)
 
Stuart Philpott said:
Guys this s incredibly sad,I've been to dudley a few times, adored seeing the snow leopards amazing to be close to one while having all those emotions of it shouldn't be here it needs to be running about a mountain The zoo, as above, is pretty much surrounded by 'erm dudley and urban areas.

I'm completely torn here, part of me feels as with James we are doing ok us humans,part of me would be appalled by the loss of a human life maybe a child and the devastation caused to a family. I'm very unsure if I can separate the grief I'd feel from the loss of this cat to a human llfe. unknown to me The human life is more tangible the cat was jaw droppingly beatutiful, This exact cat,is/ was one of the most stunning animals I have ever seen if not the most stunning. Brad's almost humorous post above says much,cat would be shot or mugged by the locals kids heel bent on doing each other no good,man it's all so sad

Is there a case recorded of snow leopard ever attacking man?? i've not researched but think I've read somewhere they haven't. It is a big cat and sure has potential to be dangerous and obviously we are dealing with a very unique situation with all manner of stressors to provoke the animal to attack I've got half a hunch this might also be the case for the european Linx shot a while back as well. A surmised danger but no base to kill,yet it is to be done. I might be wrong here,someone will put me straight....the linx was real hard for me it should actually be here it has as much right as any of us to live on this island

I don't have any answers here,my gut instinct is that every course of action. before killing was probably taken and on every level I wish it hadn't happened. It's hard though when an individual of very rare species is sacrificed on the premise it might hurt an individual/s of another species,which is systematically breeding out of control,devastating whole ecosystems and wiping out other species like we have a bottomless pit to extinguish.It's also hard because the species doing the killing ie us is solely responsible for a snow leopard being in a cage in dudley. The cat has done nothing wrong ,but paid with it's life

I def have no answers. I can't blame the keeper even if they did leave the door open if a keeper is to blame he or she will be beyond devastated, let's face it guys whom work with animals almost invariably adore them( there are always morons). Again, I also feel keeper not to blame as the fault is with the enclosure,It should be utterly impossible to leave said door open by design no rocket science here.

It's interesting we all give our various views,not only on how much we value the animal kingdom against humanity but how the folks involved might have done better. Yet in a situation like this once the cat is out,it's likely everyone involved had no experience to draw upon what so ever. i or you might have as much experience,sure this happens now and then always will,but it's so infrequent, who has that knowldge to make the right moves at the right time to catch a big cat and return it safely to it's enclosure??

I've made an assumption here,we probably don't and never will have a crack big cat swat team on standby in the UK ready to jump into action with their incredible depth of knoweldge and skill set. ,so next time we'll probably see the exact same result

This one is just plain sad,tare ya guts out sad,as with the others. and all but worse is it'll happen again,:(:(:(.

ERE's a question for ya guys............;)
If we lived with apex predators, had bears lynx etc here, and had not extinguished them from our island.........................would we be so quick to kill.???????????? We'd be in bloody uproar if the guys over in the Hymalayers killed all the snow leopards,that are a threat to their children huh????? What makes us so bloody important?????????? Where does this assumed "right" to live here without apex predators come from????

Every snow leopard in the Himalayers doesn't eat man,( I'll stand corrected if there is a case!!) Every lion in Africa doesn't eat man,every linx in europe doesnt eat man, every tiger in india does not prey on man Simply,every apex predator that occurs with man in an ecosystem isn't utterly hell bent on preying on man !!! . Yet something conceivably dangerous here is virtually under a death sentence if it gets a sniff of freedom
Sure I know dudley zoo it's urban I visited as a kid when they had cuddles have been back as an adult it's not an ideal place to have a snowleopard loose . But bigger than this incident is really what i'm asking you to reply to

There is this attitude here in blightly that no apex predator can co exist with us, it's terrible really, . shockingly so. Folks live with bears tigers leopards all over the world,they don't kill em all if they aren't in a cage

There will always be conflict sure, and casualties on both sides,but it is not just OUR island...........(. ok my island :p LMAO )......... or our planet...................... we have to have animals too and some will see us as their prey some capable of eating us won't

but we have to have them, for better or worse

Sorry for going on........................ man that was an amazing animal to be in the presense of
gutted!!

stu
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There’s a lot there Stu! I’m in favour of the re-introduction of wolf, lynx and bear to UK. I expect snow leopards do kill people if the circumstances are right (or wrong :)) but when they were numerous there probably weren’t a lot of news outlets reporting on it.

Jim Corbett, who I referenced about, found in almost all cases the man-eating tigers and leopards he shot had been previously shot or wounded themselves attacking porcupines and assumed the festering wounds had made it difficult for them to kill deer etc for some period. From memory, the exceptions were a tiger born to a man-eating tigress and a leopard that killed hundreds of people during/after an epidemic (maybe the 1918 flu) when there were many partially cremated human bodies available.
(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Corbett but you’d have to read his books, still in print in India I think)

Lions in Africa are a different case for various reasons.
 
This is sad and an unfortunate circumstance that lead to the destruction of IMO the most enigmatic of the big cats.

AFAIK their habitat is almost the entirely mountainous region in northern India/Tibet ......as such their interactions with man are limited and hopefully there are no historical reports of any becoming a man-eater!

Some good few years ago I went on a photography session here http://www.catsurvivaltrust.org/default.aspx it was great to have the opportunity and priveleged access where at the time I was given to understand they were involved in the world wide captive breeding program .......and indeed saw one cub.

The access we were allowed under strict supervision etc meant that many of the photos were taken within 10ft of these beautiful creatures and the open mesh of the enclosures was beneficial in getting some frame fillers.

They have a quiet dignity that you cannot but respect and feel for them........so the loss of this one is tragic in many ways :(
 
Professor1991 said:
If they had to shoot it, would it not have made more sense to shoot it in the leg/s which would severely impede its mobility and then possibly tranquilize it ?
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Are you seriously suggesting that crippling a beautiful creature is the best course of action ?
It would no doubt be euthanised later if it was, and that would cause pain and suffering
in the meantime, I really can't believe you posted that:(
 
sphexx said:
There’s a lot there Stu! I’m in favour of the re-introduction of wolf, lynx and bear to UK. .
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Why? What actual good would come of that?

In a relatively densely populated small country the risk to human life is very real never mind livestock.

Our forebears rid of of these things for a good reason. I don’t foresee any good of re-introducing them.
 
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Zoos are nothing like prisons for animals but man has to feed his WANTS....In this case to be able to view these creatures at close quarters in a so called safe environment.

Then when the animal escapes ( who can blame it!), man then finds that his 'toy' has become a wild savage beast that's going to seek revenge by attacking several dozen people….Perhaps it would but only because it's not in its own environment where kids schools etc aren't on its doorstep!

This event is not just saddening, it's also a sick reminder of the selfishness of man.

I wonder how we would feel if the tables were turned and these creatures chose to murder those of us who fall out of pubs/clubs and kick off brawls like 'dangerous' animals on a saturday night.
 
Asha said:
Zoos are nothing like prisons for animals but man has to feed his WANTS....In this case to be able to view these creatures at close quarters in a so called safe environment.

Then when the animal escapes ( who can blame it!), man then finds that his 'toy' has become a wild savage beast that's going to seek revenge by attacking several dozen people….Perhaps it would but only because it's not in its own environment where kids schools etc aren't on its doorstep!

This event is not just saddening, it's also a sick reminder of the selfishness of man.

I wonder how we would feel if the tables were turned and these creatures chose to murder those of us who fall out of pubs/clubs and kick off brawls like 'dangerous' animals on a saturday night.
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An interesting perspective. I am not one of these "animal love" types but this does strike a chord - it's in a jail through no fault of it's own. Zoo's are great to see them but is it a good and right thing to have zoo's and perhaps these creatures are best not to be seen by people so zoo's don't exist? We have the ability to keep them at arms lengths from us so why harm these animals any more by keeping them in captivity.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
How do you know this though?
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OK so I'm not the animal contained behind bars. in a cage etc but I do know what it is to have "freedom" in so far as being able to wander about in my own environment, to interact with whomever / whatever I wish, to search food of my choice and eat when and where I please…...The list goes on!

It is not natural to confine any living creature, including ourselves and indeed it can have a detrimental effect psychologically.
Do we REALLY have a right to inflict suffarance on any animal? Is it not enough that we are often quite "happy" to inflict hurt ( physical and psychological) on each other which in itself is quite sad and sick.

I don't expect people to agree with me, nor am I attempting to start a debate.
I have simply voiced my personal opinion and perhaps ( like other folks opinions) it may give food for thought to some who have never considered that these places of "entertainment" ( ie zoos / animal parks ) are not necessarily in the best interests of the animals that reside in them regrdless of our attempt to make them as "comfortable" as possible.
Nature knows best, not us!
 
Granted, there are zoos and then there are "zoos" the better zoos...
Many creatures in zoos are bred in captivity, they know no different, their life expectancy is greatly increased, they no longer have to hunt for food,
to survive. The females no longer have to hunt or forage for food, to produce milk, to feed the young.
Survival rate is very high in the off spring. If they should get sick or damaged some kind "thing" fixes them up.
They have no predators to hide from, no wild deer to hunt down, as some kind "thing" throws half a cow or indeed a bale of hay / bamboo and other vegetable matter, in their pens regularly as nature intended.

As for Snow leopards after several inquires and searches.
They all say pretty much the same as the one quoted.


Snow leopard expert Dr Tom McCarthy also says, “I can say with much certainty that humans in snow leopard habitat are in no danger from these big cats. Snow leopards have simply never been known to attack people. Even when they are cornered by herders who find them in their livestock corrals snow leopards do not try to attack. I have captured many of the cats, and even when they are in a snare, they do not act aggressively towards me as I work to sedate them – they just try to avoid me.”
 
Cobra said:
Granted, there are zoos and then there are "zoos" the better zoos...
Many creatures in zoos are bred in captivity, they know no different, their life expectancy is greatly increased, they no longer have to hunt for food,
to survive. The females no longer have to hunt or forage for food, to produce milk, to feed the young.
Survival rate is very high in the off spring. If they should get sick or damaged some kind "thing" fixes them up.
They have no predators to hide from, no wild deer to hunt down, as some kind "thing" throws half a cow or indeed a bale of hay / bamboo and other vegetable matter, in their pens regularly as nature intended.

As for Snow leopards after several inquires and searches.
They all say pretty much the same as the one quoted.


Snow leopard expert Dr Tom McCarthy also says, “I can say with much certainty that humans in snow leopard habitat are in no danger from these big cats. Snow leopards have simply never been known to attack people. Even when they are cornered by herders who find them in their livestock corrals snow leopards do not try to attack. I have captured many of the cats, and even when they are in a snare, they do not act aggressively towards me as I work to sedate them – they just try to avoid me.”
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But that's not the natural order of things - they might know no different but their instincts etc won't like it. I might have been born in a gulag, but I doubt life would have any joy in it as I know I am destined for greater and better things.
 
SFTPhotography said:
I might have been born in a gulag, but I doubt life would have any joy in it as I know I am destined for greater and better things.
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As a behaviorist I don't believe in Anthropomorphism.

But if you want to add Anthropomorphism into the discussion, if you were born in China would you honestly think sod learning this language I wish I'd been born in England?
Are you happy with your life style? I am. I'm sure there are 1000's of people out there, feeling sorry for the "lesser people" ( or maybe not :D )
We know no different, we have never experienced the super rich life style and don't miss it.
 
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