Silver Vs White Beauty dish Colour Cast

Marcus Geezer

Marcus Geezer

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Guys,

Possibly a simple answer which I may have already worked out myself (I'm clever me sometimes! :geek:) but just needed a sanity check on something.

I tend to use two different lighting set-ups when taking single person portraits. It is either the gritty two gridded softboxes for rim with a white 40cm Beauty dish above as key, or 120cm octabox as key with reflector brolly as fill. I sometimes mix and match, add additional kickers, hairlights, etc, but for my query trying to keep it simple.

Basically looking at the two key lights, either the white BD or the octabox, I get a different colour cast. I think it is as simple as the octabox has a silver interior whilst the BD has a white interior. Am I right? Would therefore a silver BD match WB with the other light modifiers?

I ask as I'm about to go for a bigger BD probably the 70cm, and considering going for the silver to match WB across all my key modifiers which all seem to be silver interior with white diffusers.
 
Could be anything really. Usually it's the softbox front going slightly yellow with age, but different brands using slighly different materials can also do it. They all look pretty clean white, until you shoot them side by side on the same subject, when even very small differences become noticeable.

Check your flash heads too. Different brands vary a bit on basic colour, and they all get warmer when turned down, some more noticeably than others.
 
Hi Hoppy,

I'm using 3 x lencarta elitepro600 heads and all the modifiers were all bought at the same time as the flash heads earlier this year. The beauty dish is a lencarta product but is a bit older.

Here is an example of the difference from a shoot earlier this year. I've picked these as other than some basic tweaking of power settings on the key light to match exposure everything was the same, apart from one is white beauty dish and the other 120cm octabox. You can see the different modifiers in the top right corner. My question is, if the BD was silver, would the WB be closer? I think it would??


IMG_6295 by Marcus Charter, on Flickr


IMG_6297 by Marcus Charter, on Flickr
 
Summat's going on. You sure you've not just changed the white balance? I'm sure Garry will be along to add his comments but it's worth doing some tests.

If not just WB, then it's got to be either the modifier or the head. As I recall, the ElitePro heads have quite good colour consistency at different powers, but I'm guessing the beauty dish shot will be at lower power (warmer) than the softbox. Easy enough to check - just shoot a white background at different power settings, first with beauty dish and then softbox. The answer will be in there somewhere. Check your other heads while you're at it.

Do you have a diffuser front on the beauty dish? And I'm sure you're aware that swapping to a silver beauty dish makes the light quite a bit harder.
 
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No change to anything other than light modifier and power setting, but would hazard a guess the power setting wasnt extremely different. Settings were all the same in camera and these shots were taken all within minutes of each other using the same head as key with the only difference being the beauty dish changed to the octa. It seems to be the beauty dish white coating causing a warmer cast than the silver interior of the octa?

I know the light will be a bit harsher with silver, but planning to use the diffuser.
 
Did I hear my name?:)

I think that you have one of the earlier white beauty dishes, which has a 'warm white' colour. Most people like the colour it produces because true, neutral colours are generally a bit too cool for people photos. Another example of this is the acclaimed skin tones produced by the Fuji S3 and S5 Pro cameras - they are actually on the warm side, but that's what most people want.

In your case, you're using the beauty dish in conjunction with cooler accessories, and this is what is causing the problem. One solution would be to change to a silver beauty dish, with it's much harder light, another would be simply to gel the other lights to match the colour.

If you want to go this route, and don't have a colour temperature meter, don't worry because I do.... if you like I will measure the colour difference so that you know which gel you need to balance them.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Did I hear my name?:)

I think that you have one of the earlier white beauty dishes, which has a 'warm white' colour. Most people like the colour it produces because true, neutral colours are generally a bit too cool for people photos. Another example of this is the acclaimed skin tones produced by the Fuji S3 and S5 Pro cameras - they are actually on the warm side, but that's what most people want.

In your case, you're using the beauty dish in conjunction with cooler accessories, and this is what is causing the problem. One solution would be to change to a silver beauty dish, with it's much harder light, another would be simply to gel the other lights to match the colour.

If you want to go this route, and don't have a colour temperature meter, don't worry because I do.... if you like I will measure the colour difference so that you know which gel you need to balance them.
Click to expand...

So what colour are the current 'white' beauty dishes?
 
HoppyUK said:
So what colour are the current 'white' beauty dishes?
Click to expand...

Garry I want to order a 70cm Lencarta beauty dish this afternoon and can you tell me to match white balance with my octabox and softbox whether I order a silver or white one?

I don't really want to be messing about with gels for straight forward work so is it definitely the silver one?

EDIT: Impatience got the better of me. I've ordered a 70cm silver dish from you Garry so hope to receive it really quickly so I can have a play!

In the meantime I may get a can of arctic white spray paint for my 'warm' 40cm!
 
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HoppyUK said:
So what colour are the current 'white' beauty dishes?
Click to expand...

Compared to a silver one, or to a standard reflector, + 460K

Garry I want to order a 70cm Lencarta beauty dish this afternoon and can you tell me to match white balance with my octabox and softbox whether I order a silver or white one?

I don't really want to be messing about with gels for straight forward work so is it definitely the silver one?

EDIT: Impatience got the better of me. I've ordered a 70cm silver dish from you Garry so hope to receive it really quickly so I can have a play!

In the meantime I may get a can of arctic white spray paint for my 'warm' 40cm!
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Even though you ordered it well after the cut-off point, it's gone today for delivery tomorrow;)

The silver one should pretty well match your softboxes, but it isn't an exact science and there is always some difference, especially as the softboxes age - but it will be very close.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Even though you ordered it well after the cut-off point, it's gone today for delivery tomorrow;)

The silver one should pretty well match your softboxes, but it isn't an exact science and there is always some difference, especially as the softboxes age - but it will be very close.
Click to expand...

Thank you very much Garry for sending this out. As always a great service from Lencarta.

Thanks Garry and Hoppy for your input on this. Glad it wasn't me going crazy regarding the white balance. As always, every day is a school day! :thumbs:


EDIT: Would a matt bright white can of spray paint do the job for my existing BD?
 
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So the white beauty dish is almost 500k warmer than all other regular light modifiers? :eek: I can see it in the demo pictures on the site now.

Forgive my ignorance, but is this common with beauty dishes? Never noticed it before. And what does the diffuser front do to the colour? Sounds like a daft idea to me - we're not shooting film any more. Can of spray paint needed!
 
If it was always the single light source I would create a custom white balance for it, but as it is mixed it can give me varying results so would rather try and get rid of that warm cast if I can. Spray paintjng the interior of the dish to as white as white can be seems like a good solution?
 
Just thought I'd close the loop on this.

Pretty much the same set-up as the shots shown above, except with a socked 70cm silver beauty dish from Lencarta as key this time and I would consider the light temps pretty much match from key to rim. Only PP is a very slight bit of selective sharpening on the eyes.

Regarding the 70cm Beauty dish, I knew it was gonna be big, but I didn't quite realise how big!!


IMG_4487 by Marcus Charter, on Flickr
 
Nice job Marcus :thumbs:

I'm liking your simple but effective rim set up. Can I ask what level the rim lights are at in that shot, relative to the front?

You're right about 70cm beauty dishes being big bu99ers! And they don't fold very well :D I find the light is very similar from a slighly modded Lencarta 85cm Profold octa (lovely semi-parabolic portait/fashion light BTW). Mine came with a free round mask that is 70cm across, so take the two diffusers out and stick a small carboard disk to the rear of the umbrella mech, covered in kitchen foil, to mimic the central cap of the BD.

I'm still playing around with this idea (stolen from Elinchrom heads that have their central accessory slot to fit small diffusers and deflectors) but should be able to do a few things with the basic idea, including colouring the light. Then with the 85 octa, you can also add one or two diffusers, and/or grid :)
 
Hi Hoppy and thank you.

Setup as follows: Gridded softboxes were at about 1/8 with the BD at about 1/32. Camera hovered around F8 (F9 for tall chap and F7.1 for the short chap). The softboxes were heavily feathered away from the subject which is what gives that rim effect. The BD was probably too close to the subject as the catchlights in a few of the shots were so big that's all there was! If you see the tape on the floor, that as where they stood.


IMG_5757 by Marcus Charter, on Flickr

More pics here.....

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=445919

Loving your modified octa, would love to see a pic taken with that?
 
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Marcus Geezer said:
Hi Hoppy and thank you.

Setup as follows: Gridded softboxes were at about 1/8 with the BD at about 1/32. Camera hovered around F8 (F7.1 for tall chap and F9 for the short chap). The softboxes were heavily feathered away from the subject which is what gives that rim effect. The BD was probably too close to the subject as the catchlights in a few of the shots were so big that's all there was!

<snip>

More pics here.....

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=445919

Loving your modified octa, would love to see a pic taken with that?
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Thanks Marcus, useful info :) From the feathering comment, do I take it that the rim effect is quite sensitive to subject positioning? I was kinda hoping the bigger softbox would allow a bit more freedom there - must try it. Maybe a couple of strip boxes might be better?

The modded octa thing is still (slow) work in progress. It's not a new idea, Elinchrom users have been doing it for years. It's just that the umbrella design of the Lencarta Profolders lends itself to sticking things immediately in front of the flash tube, exactly like Elinchrom's diffuser/deflector idea. Here http://www.theflashcentre.com/elinchrom-translucent-deflector-with-rod-i249.html and here http://www.theflashcentre.com/elinchrom-new-4-piece-deflector-set-i5399.html Need to check out a few different shapes and sizes, then fix with Velcro rather than BluTack, that melts!

I'll try and post something, one day, but I don't actually have a beauty dish to hand for direct comparison. I borrow one off a mate as and when.
 
HoppyUK said:
Thanks Marcus, useful info :) From the feathering comment, do I take it that the rim effect is quite sensitive to subject positioning? I was kinda hoping the bigger softbox would allow a bit more freedom there - must try it. Maybe a couple of strip boxes might be better?
Click to expand...

Strip boxes would be better, but I don't have strip boxes!

I was trying to avoid a mistake in rim lighting that I seem to do all too often which is to light the nose as well the side of the face. Also, I find the more you feather them the smaller the rim lighting effect gets from these 60x90 softboxes, and I guess what I'm doing is trying to avoid wrap around from the rear? I think subject placement for the whole setup is quite sensitive if you want to control this.

Here's and example where it wrapped around too much.


Operations Manager by Marcus Charter, on Flickr
 
Ah, I'm with you now. Yes, that looks a bit strong though might suit some subjects. I also like the way the light naturally falls off below the waist.

Must get me a couple of those good looking Lencarta Profold 140x30 strips sometime, with grids. They're the kind of thing I wouldn't use much, though I could have used them a couple fo times recently. I'll add them to the list!

As an aside, it would be nice if Lencarta made a few more masks for their lights. They have that nice deep Velcroed rim that's just perfect for attaching things. Take their 70x100 Profold softbox - that could be masked down to 70cm circular or 70cm square. I dare say Garry is lurking... :)
 
HoppyUK said:
I dare say Garry is lurking... :)
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Yes, a variety of masks would be good and there is no technical reason why it can't be done, but I'm worried about the level of demand for them.

Low sales = high costs = allegations of profiteering:'(
Meanwhile, long before we had strip softboxes, we always used Cinefoil - and I still do. It's advantage is that it can produce EXACTLY the size and shape of softbox needed
 
Garry Edwards said:
Yes, a variety of masks would be good and there is no technical reason why it can't be done, but I'm worried about the level of demand for them.

Low sales = high costs = allegations of profiteering:'(
Meanwhile, long before we had strip softboxes, we always used Cinefoil - and I still do. It's advantage is that it can produce EXACTLY the size and shape of softbox needed
Click to expand...

You're probably right Garry. Yes cine foil is well handy stuff, I use it a lot for flagging hot-shoe guns, with BluTack.

For softboxes, I screen them down with some off-cuts of foam board, with a square of Velcro on the corners. But of a bodge, but it works. Garry, do you sell that material used for softboxes, the black/silver stuff? Or could you get some? Could easily get the missus to run up some masks.
 
It should be possible to get some, I'll have to ask Harry - I learned the wrong languages for this:)
 
Garry Edwards said:
It should be possible to get some, I'll have to ask Harry - I learned the wrong languages for this:)
Click to expand...

Thanks Garry, that's very kind.

Just thinking about this while posting, I'll have another go with the foamboard, neaten it up a bit and see how it shapes up. I think it might be just fine.

The 70x100 Profolder for example, just a couple of bits of foamboard 15x70cm, backed with kitchenfoil. Velcro tabs hold it in place very securely, and that's then 70cm square. Circular just as easy, or oval, or a small 30x100cm* strip. 5mm foamboard slips easily under the grid too :D

I'll post something up, but don't hold your breath :eek:

*Might try that across the diagonal, would be 30x120cm then.
 
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