Should the advertising rules apply to promoting your own work?

Pookeyhead

Pookeyhead

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David
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As the title says:

Should the advertising rules also cover those wishing to promote their own work if it's a published book or paid exhibition? and as discussed in this thread, should the rules extend to those seeking help, advice, contributions or collaboration with a project who's final outcomes may be a commercial product, such as a book, or paid exhibition?

While it's understandable for companies to pay to advertise their services on here, shouldn't a community like this do more to help individual artists to produce, and promote their own work, even if it's ultimately available via a commercial outlet?


I suggest there's a difference between advertising a service such as a hire studio, or a portrait photography service, or photographic courses and advertising your work... the actual work.. not a workshop, course, or service... actual images for sale. One fear would obviously be people just using the forums to advertise any old tat, but just as the classified forums get around this by only allowing mature, long-standing members to advertise their goods, so it should be the case for this. Is there a real reason to separate people selling individual items, and letting it be known they have a book for sale as an example?

Then there's the issue that currently, if anyone appealed on the forums for help with a project/book/ that may see some commercial gain for the author, then they can't even ask for subjects, or contributions or help from forum members. Why prevent a creative from creating work that could, possibly have a commercial outlet one day merely because some of the material was provided from other people?

Think about that a minute. Are we here to promote photography as art and help people succeed, or put barriers in their way?


Why are we making it impossible for an artist to make some money? Shouldn't we be helping to facilitate that as much as possible? Yes.. charge external advertisers who wish to use the platform for their own ends (skim links, banner ads etc.) but shouldn't forum members, once established, long term contributors to the community be allowed to make people aware that they have a book published, or maybe ask for contributors or collaborators for a commercial project?


I have neither a book published I wish to sell, nor am I wanting any help, contributions or collaboration with any forum members. This is purely an exercise in thought, as I feel the rules as they are could be prohibitive to creative promotion of member's work.


Thoughts appreciated.
 
I do have a vested interest in this topic, but won't say more than that.

I can see the counter argument - the existing classifieds let people pass on unwanted equipment that others may wish to have, and that is the primary purpose, not turning a profit as an ebay shop would. It's more or less a one-off, except perhaps for people who want to try a new film camera every month or so and then pass them on. It doesn't involve work as such on the part of the seller.

Producing a book or selling prints on the other hand would produce profit from work done.

I'm not saying whether I think this is a valid argument, or whether the rules should be changed, but I think it's a valid distinction to separate two cases.
 
The advertising rules apply to those who would sell products/services to members as these are what advertisers pay to do and it would be unfair to allow others to do so for free. Many member have their websites in their signatures where they offer services as photographers or prints of their work for sale and this is absolutely fine.
 
I can see no special scenario that that would prevent any two or more people from this or any other forum working together on a project. It would seem that the rules ban the concept of crossing the line and using the forum as a free market place .
i am sure that cooperative endevours and other working partnerships, involving, ideas, artistic cooperation, new techniques and even novel gadgetry could be discussed by fellow members. Though it is true that forums are not the best place to discuss future products and sales plans.

New style crowd funding seems to the preferred route for start ups and specialist technicl products that have a limited sales potential.
 
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fabs said:
The advertising rules apply to those who would sell products/services to members as these are what advertisers pay to do and it would be unfair to allow others to do so for free. Many member have their websites in their signatures where they offer services as photographers or prints of their work for sale and this is absolutely fine.
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Ahh.. so they didn't have to pay for that? I mean those with specific, direct links to commercial websites that try and sell you stuff? If that's so, then it goes some way to answering my question.

So what if someone had a link in their sig that took you to your publisher's page with your book on it, or to an event organiser's website that advertised your exhibition? This OK too?
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
I can see no special scenario that that would prevent any two or more people from this or any other forum working together on a project.
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The problem would be is , for arguments sake, person A posts in here and says, "Hi.. planning to do a book on extreme ironing... anyone in here do that would like to be a subject in my book? because if that book is to be sold as a commercial product, even that would appear to contravene the forum rules as I read them. That's the main problem I have - the lack of ability to network and collaborate on commercial projects via this forum.
 
fabs said:
The advertising rules apply to those who would sell products/services to members as these are what advertisers pay to do and it would be unfair to allow others to do so for free. Many member have their websites in their signatures where they offer services as photographers or prints of their work for sale and this is absolutely fine.
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If I were to include a signature offering my Iceland photo tours, would that be allowed? They're very inexpensive and very good. :-)
 
Pookeyhead said:
Ahh.. so they didn't have to pay for that? I mean those with specific, direct links to commercial websites that try and sell you stuff? If that's so, then it goes some way to answering my question.

So what if someone had a link in their sig that took you to your publisher's page with your book on it, or to an event organiser's website that advertised your exhibition? This OK too?
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Each case would be taken on its merit David. If it is considered that someone is using a commercial venture to make money from the members of TP then it's only fair to pay in order to do so.
 
The problem is how do you tell if it's not a con just to get free photos,especially if the person coming on the fourm has never been a member,then suddenly out of the blue they join and the first thing they ask is for photos

:)
 
simonblue said:
The problem is how do you tell if it's not a con just to get free photos,especially if the person coming on the fourm has never been a member,then suddenly out of the blue they join and the first thing they ask is for photos

:)
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Well, I this case she was a student and provided her uni email. Some members jumped onto, let's face it, a fairly inexperienced person, when the inexperience of youth meant they just jumped in and asked for input and help.

Doesn't really fit with the idea this is a friendly place.

As for producing a book, many students are encouraged to produce copy as part of their final years work, which might be why pokeyhead brought it up. I know my next door neighbour who was a student at Cardiff, produced a book with quite a few of her year. I bought a copy which was £15, but they didn't sell enough to quite break even.
 
David, in many ways I agree with you, promoting actual work is not really different to me having my website for pro photography in my sig, to me having a link to a book of my work [not that I have one, I am simply using this as an example] and then it becomes a short leap to me offering workshops based on the success of that book and having those linked there too. However, that is where the problem also lies with the advertisers that pay to keep this forum free for everyone else - where that line is. Many have started here as hobby photographers and then gone on into the commercial side, whether that is doing workshops, lens hire, studio hire or as professional photographers. They were also long standing, regular posting members that many people knew well. So, eventually it was decided that links to photographers websites could be allowed in sigs on for a couple of reasons. Firstly, not all websites belong to 'pro' [as in paid to take pictures], many were hobbyists that chose to have their own sites and it became increasingly difficult to distinguish who was doing what, especially as the forum increased in size. Secondly, the market for someone wanting to hire a professional photographer, amongst a forum full of them, was always going to be relatively small. So that was where the line was drawn, anything beyond that, so let's take the book example, or the workshops, are done to make a profit and by their nature are far more attractive with a far greater likely market amongst the membership. So, they fell the other side of the line, and required an advertiser account. I know you might consider that a little 'arbitrary' and I get that, but the forum needs to support itself and that line had to be drawn somewhere. As Marc said earlier, some cases will be taken on merit on may be allowed, depending on the nature of the request, but if nothing else, it is good manners to ask admin if its ok even in those scenarios.

So our uni student, the questions asked on a personal level were understandable, everyone here is a photographer and it is only to be expected they would want more information about how and where the photos would be used, questioning that comes of a little knowledge [don't even think it! :lol: ] and in fairness, her posts were quite vague in how the final presentation would look/be presented [although I am another who finds her concept wholly admirable] The questions asked on a forum level, by a mod, were based on my first paragraph, we just have to be sure how and what is happening so we are not dealing with fallout later - and this would apply whether it was a new or existing member.

So, yes, as a whole forum it would be good to be supporting actual photography but that has to be balanced with the more mundane and painful job of keeping the forum going financially.
 
simonblue said:
The problem is how do you tell if it's not a con just to get free photos,especially if the person coming on the fourm has never been a member,then suddenly out of the blue they join and the first thing they ask is for photos

:)
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Like I said... as with the classifieds... 3 months membership, and 1000 posts required. That sorts that out.

Yv said:
David, in many ways I agree with you, promoting actual work is not really different to me having my website for pro photography in my sig, to me having a link to a book of my work [not that I have one, I am simply using this as an example] and then it becomes a short leap to me offering workshops based on the success of that book and having those linked there too. However, that is where the problem also lies with the advertisers that pay to keep this forum free for everyone else - where that line is. Many have started here as hobby photographers and then gone on into the commercial side, whether that is doing workshops, lens hire, studio hire or as professional photographers. They were also long standing, regular posting members that many people knew well. So, eventually it was decided that links to photographers websites could be allowed in sigs on for a couple of reasons. Firstly, not all websites belong to 'pro' [as in paid to take pictures], many were hobbyists that chose to have their own sites and it became increasingly difficult to distinguish who was doing what, especially as the forum increased in size. Secondly, the market for someone wanting to hire a professional photographer, amongst a forum full of them, was always going to be relatively small. So that was where the line was drawn, anything beyond that, so let's take the book example, or the workshops, are done to make a profit and by their nature are far more attractive with a far greater likely market amongst the membership. So, they fell the other side of the line, and required an advertiser account. I know you might consider that a little 'arbitrary' and I get that, but the forum needs to support itself and that line had to be drawn somewhere. As Marc said earlier, some cases will be taken on merit on may be allowed, depending on the nature of the request, but if nothing else, it is good manners to ask admin if its ok even in those scenarios.

So our uni student, the questions asked on a personal level were understandable, everyone here is a photographer and it is only to be expected they would want more information about how and where the photos would be used, questioning that comes of a little knowledge [don't even think it! :LOL: ] and in fairness, her posts were quite vague in how the final presentation would look/be presented [although I am another who finds her concept wholly admirable] The questions asked on a forum level, by a mod, were based on my first paragraph, we just have to be sure how and what is happening so we are not dealing with fallout later - and this would apply whether it was a new or existing member.

So, yes, as a whole forum it would be good to be supporting actual photography but that has to be balanced with the more mundane and painful job of keeping the forum going financially.
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All fair enough. It seems then, that if a forum member in good standing wanted to put the word out for an exhibition, book, or ask for help on a project, it would be considered on a one off basis if asked for.. which is fair enough.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Like I said... as with the classifieds... 3 months membership, and 1000 posts required. That sorts that out.




All fair enough. It seems then, that if a forum member in good standing wanted to put the word out for an exhibition, book, or ask for help on a project, it would be considered on a one off basis if asked for.. which is fair enough.
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That sound better some input as a member :)
 
Pookeyhead said:
Like I said... as with the classifieds... 3 months membership, and 1000 posts required. That sorts that out.
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I have a look around classifieds daily. You can see some members where over 10% of their posts are in that section, is there primary interests in buying and selling???..............If so, what do they add to the site as a whole? Perhaps your suggestion is valid.
 
Swanseajack said:
I have a look around classifieds daily. You can see some members where over 10% of their posts are in that section, is there primary interests in buying and selling???..............If so, what do they add to the site as a whole? Perhaps your suggestion is valid.
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I've seen percentages far higher than 10%, and people who have extremely high ratios regularly get given a reminder to participate in the forum outside of the classifieds or they will lose access...
 
Swanseajack said:
I have a look around classifieds daily. You can see some members where over 10% of their posts are in that section, is there primary interests in buying and selling???..............If so, what do they add to the site as a whole? Perhaps your suggestion is valid.
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Only 10%? There are members with over 80% of their posts in the Classified section.
 
Swanseajack said:
I have a look around classifieds daily. You can see some members where over 10% of their posts are in that section, is there primary interests in buying and selling???..............If so, what do they add to the site as a whole? Perhaps your suggestion is valid.
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Well, if you turn that around, that could be worded as 'almost 90% of their posts are outside of the classifieds', which 'sounds' much better :)
 
TheBigYin said:
I've seen percentages far higher than 10%, and people who have extremely high ratios regularly get given a reminder to participate in the forum outside of the classifieds or they will lose access...
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Nice to know action is being taken. It seems a shame if some are using this forum rather than Gumtree or eBay.

Alastair said:
Only 10%? There are members with over 80% of their posts in the Classified section.
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It also makes you wonder where some of these sellers get there gear from, sometimes they seem to sell a lot of items which can sometimes be duplicates. Are they camera dealers???? It must be a difficult situation for the mods.

Faldrax said:
Well, if you turn that around, that could be worded as 'almost 90% of their posts are outside of the classifieds', which 'sounds' much better :)
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See Alastairs message above. I used the 10% as a starting figure.
 
Swanseajack said:
I have a look around classifieds daily. You can see some members where over 10% of their posts are in that section, is there primary interests in buying and selling???..............If so, what do they add to the site as a whole? Perhaps your suggestion is valid.
Click to expand...

Same with out of focus (ok it may only appear so...) :D
 
TheBigYin said:
I've seen percentages far higher than 10%, and people who have extremely high ratios regularly get given a reminder to participate in the forum outside of the classifieds or they will lose access...
Click to expand...

might be an idea for OOF to have similar :)
 
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