Should doctors strike?

Sir SR said:
I think you just answered your own argument.
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"Yeah, but, but, but.... I KNOW YOU ARE!"

Honestly, I know deep down you think taking a single line of my post and then replying to it out of context is clever, but it's just complete nonsense. To the point where I won't even waste my time explaining why.
 
London Headshots said:
"Yeah, but, but, but.... I KNOW YOU ARE!"

Honestly, I know deep down you think taking a single line of my post and then replying to it out of context is clever, but it's just complete nonsense. To the point where I won't even waste my time explaining why.
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Am not trying to be clever and am not sure how it was out of context - you wrote it. The brevity of reply was due to my visiting my mother in hospital.

My point was that your experience of working in a supermarket doesn't reflect that of everybody doing so - I refer you back to your own statement. I've also worked in three different supermarkets, and from my experience they don't all think it's a **** job.
 
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andyscott said:
Ok you have little experience in the NHS, and its quite obvious.

The first couple of years of med school can be a doss, you are not working clinically for a while, and the placements you do are not exactly difficult.

As for junior doctors getting paid less than "some" ward staff, is they have less responsibility and are pretty clueless. Look at the figures for patient poor outcomes, yes every year when the new House officers start or the new name for them, it gets worse, thats a fact. Some ward nurses have worked years to get where they are at so a day one, week one baby doctor should not get as much as a senior nurse. Nurses on the wards, assess treat, prescribe and discharge. Some specialist nurses are even on the Doctors rota!!! There is an adage of "be nice to nurses, they stop Doctors killing you"

Resuscitation of a 5 yr old, well to be honest Doctors are not the best at running resuscitations, how many Doctors are on a hospitals Resus training teams... hmm that will be none. As nurses and other health care professionals are quite capable of doing ALS, ATLS, PALS etc.
The reason handovers take long times is 2 fold, one the junior docs admin is usually up his arse, they are short staffed and won't speak out (as its still very much a kiss arse jobs for the boys/girls promotion structure). So really they have a hand in it. They do claim overtime/time back and take it!!! Nurses also regularly work over.

I am sorry but lots of people do it for the money, and or social status, rather than the patient. Ask a doctor what the "hip replacement in bed 4" is called, bet you they don't know, why, because actually they are not interested in the patient. A lot of my colleagues especially surgeons do it for their own gratification, there attitude is look how good my surgery is, look what I have done for you. Most would also rather do a private session as spend time at home with their kids, why? greed for more money.

Please don't come the oh its a hard life, its not, I have never seen a poor doctor with all those student debts, thats just laughable.

Saying that, I agree that the pension was something that went with the job and no one should start changing terms and conditions years down the line.
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Certainly in our unit no-one ever claims overtime - because we can't. If you 'stay over' it's meant to be entirely optional - but let's face it, it isn't. It's because if you don't the job won't get done. Perhaps the nurses do, I don't know. But the doctors certainly don't.

I say the 'strike' will not effect patients much. 1 day extra for a non critical condition where they have already waited several weeks or months to be consulted will hardly make a difference.

Can I ask what you do Andy?
 
Cheng said:
Certainly in our unit no-one ever claims overtime - because we can't. If you 'stay over' it's meant to be entirely optional - but let's face it, it isn't. It's because if you don't the job won't get done. Perhaps the nurses do, I don't know. But the doctors certainly don't.

I say the 'strike' will not effect patients much. 1 day extra for a non critical condition where they have already waited several weeks or months to be consulted will hardly make a difference.

Can I ask what you do Andy?
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But will it be 1 day? The day after they were supposed to have their operations there will already be other patients booked in so, in reality, they will be bumped to later dates when there are slots available which, in some cases, could be weeks, even months, later.
 
fabs said:
But will it be 1 day? The day after they were supposed to have their operations there will already be other patients booked in so, in reality, they will be bumped to later dates when there are slots available which, in some cases, could be weeks, even months, later.
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More the reason why the Goverment should do what they had promised to our doctors. :p
 
Cheng said:
Certainly in our unit no-one ever claims overtime - because we can't. If you 'stay over' it's meant to be entirely optional - but let's face it, it isn't. It's because if you don't the job won't get done. Perhaps the nurses do, I don't know. But the doctors certainly don't.

I say the 'strike' will not effect patients much. 1 day extra for a non critical condition where they have already waited several weeks or months to be consulted will hardly make a difference.

Can I ask what you do Andy?
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You can but as I work for HM government I can't discuss it on an open forum.
 
fabs said:
Not arguing one way or the other Z, just pointing out that the effects weren't as straight forward as they were being presented. ;)
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Agree the effects of the action taken by doctors Goverment will pee up more than one day. :thumbs:
 
Cheng said:
Certainly in our unit no-one ever claims overtime - because we can't. If you 'stay over' it's meant to be entirely optional - but let's face it, it isn't. It's because if you don't the job won't get done. Perhaps the nurses do, I don't know. But the doctors certainly don't.

I say the 'strike' will not effect patients much. 1 day extra for a non critical condition where they have already waited several weeks or months to be consulted will hardly make a difference.

Can I ask what you do Andy?
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*sigh*
 
andyscott said:
snip
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I don't know where to start. Firstly, nice attitude mate, pretty obnoxious. Secondly, utterly, utterly clueless.

The first couple of years of med school can be a doss, you are not working clinically for a while, and the placements you do are not exactly difficult.
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Apart from the bit where you basically learn and are examined on the entire degree content of human physiology, anatomy and biochemistry.

As for junior doctors getting paid less than "some" ward staff, is they have less responsibility and are pretty clueless. Look at the figures for patient poor outcomes, yes every year when the new House officers start or the new name for them, it gets worse, thats a fact.
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Of course there's a blip, what do you expect? But it's a tiny blip that lasts for a week which goes to show that they learn their jobs pretty damn quickly. We are pretty clueless are we? You been on a small DGH on a night shift where the FY1 is covering three wards and constantly running around between them? If you haven't then get lost. It happens every night, everywhere, and the juniors do pretty well.

There is an adage of "be nice to nurses, they stop Doctors killing you"
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Yeh, it's one of those jokey lines that gets bandied around a lot on the ward. No one actually believes it.

Resuscitation of a 5 yr old, well to be honest Doctors are not the best at running resuscitations, how many Doctors are on a hospitals Resus training teams... hmm that will be none. As nurses and other health care professionals are quite capable of doing ALS, ATLS, PALS etc.
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Oh now you're talking out of your backside. All SHOs in my trust have to have ALS for 60%-70% of specialty applications, and lots need ATLS too. I would say that 50% of FY1s have ALS qualifications under their belts, most SHOs do, and in the current crop of medical students, nearly 90% from London and Oxbridge have ALS. As for resuscitations, the best outcomes come from registrar led ward based resus attempts, and there's a reason most of them are doctor led.

They do claim overtime/time back and take it!!!
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We can't claim overtime. Our jobs are pre-banded with a maximum work limit which no one ever keeps to.

Please don't come the oh its a hard life, its not, I have never seen a poor doctor with all those student debts, thats just laughable.
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...

Sounds like someone's a bit bitter (in addition to being clueless) about something?

EDIT: also LOL @
You can but as I work for HM government I can't discuss it on an open forum.
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andyscott said:
You can but as I work for HM government I can't discuss it on an open forum.
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We all work for the f'ing Government...It's called Tax!:p
 
boyfalldown said:
I dont think anyone has ever claimed it is.

Btw the nhs pension pot is £2bn in the black. That's not effectively bankrupt. The point is about moving the goalposts again. It's only.been two years since nhs pensions were last renegotiated
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Taxpayers money is being used to pay civil service pensions, to the tune of several billion a year, and rising. It needs sorting....and that means higher contributions and/or lower payouts. No way round it.
 
fabs said:
But will it be 1 day? The day after they were supposed to have their operations there will already be other patients booked in so, in reality, they will be bumped to later dates when there are slots available which, in some cases, could be weeks, even months, later.
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Fair point, but there's something we call an 18 week breach date. Patients have to be consulted and treated from 18 weeks from referral. It's 2 weeks for urgents. These patients will still be treated within the set time scales. Now in a normal situation a patient could be made to wait 4 weeks...likewise, some could be treated at 17-18 weeks. It's just to do with how busy the departments are.

Fair enough with the strike people are having to wait a little longer, but if there is so called 'harm' going on to patients because of the strike, then there must be harm already occurring due to the pre-existing system - which is a government and funding issue, not the doctors. We're working as fast as we can to cut lists!
 
andyscott said:
You can but as I work for HM government I can't discuss it on an open forum.
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I ask as it sounds like you're someone that thinks they know the system and does sound incredibly bitter. I would think in fairness you couldn't really comment if you haven't been through it.

The first few years a doss? Doesn't sound like you've been through it. Sounds like you're one of the guys that work around monitoring staff with a clipboard, yet doing actually sweet nothing to contribute to the busy hospital.
 
Cheng said:
I ask as it sounds like you're someone that thinks they know the system and does sound incredibly bitter. I would think in fairness you couldn't really comment if you haven't been through it.

The first few years a doss? Doesn't sound like you've been through it. Sounds like you're one of the guys that work around monitoring staff with a clipboard, yet doing actually sweet nothing to contribute to the busy hospital.
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Been through it, got the t-shirt, 2 years into my consultant job, working hard, but still maintaining a good balance, but I am not someone who is blinkered ;)
 
joxang said:
You're a doctor + a consultant? :shake:
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Its the same, no balance between work and home life I meant, unlike some of my surgical colleagues :cuckoo:

Also I don't feel the need to justify my job, just as I have an opinion that differs.
Unless we all list our jobs?

However thats the willy waving of medicine :bonk:
 
^I didn't mean you were both. You said you were a consultant. I was asking if you were a 'doctor' consultant, as opposed to a 'management' consultant. You sound and write (not just from your opinions) rather a lot like the latter, very little like the former, and my BS meter was going off.
 
mid_gen said:
Taxpayers money is being used to pay civil service pensions, to the tune of several billion a year, and rising. It needs sorting....and that means higher contributions and/or lower payouts. No way round it.
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the purpose of the renegotiation, just four years ago was to sort it surely?. Indecently the last figures show the NHS pension making a profit of £2bn. How is tax payers money being used to fund that?

I agree it does need sorting, but the current methodology used to do it is clearly not working, is it?. Theres not a single scrap of evidence it is and a lot of anger to show for it
 
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joxang said:
^I didn't mean you were both. You said you were a consultant. I was asking if you were a 'doctor' consultant, as opposed to a 'management' consultant. You sound and write (not just from your opinions) rather a lot like the latter, very little like the former, and my BS meter was going off.
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Ha ha, no definitely not a management consultant, I hate them more than plastic surgeons :) luckily, I'm not employed directly by the NHS so I have little to do with "the good ideas club".
 
Sir SR said:
Am not trying to be clever and am not sure how it was out of context - you wrote it. The brevity of reply was due to my visiting my mother in hospital.

My point was that your experience of working in a supermarket doesn't reflect that of everybody doing so - I refer you back to your own statement. I've also worked in three different supermarkets, and from my experience they don't all think it's a **** job.
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It was out of context because your reply was based on an excerpt.

I didn't speak about my experiences, nor anyone else's. I specifically outlined why it was a **** job based on criteria that intentionally left out the personal feelings of anyone involved.

So I was, in the end, forced to explain why.
 
London Headshots said:
It was out of context because your reply was based on an excerpt.

I didn't speak about my experiences, nor anyone else's. I specifically outlined why it was a **** job based on criteria that intentionally left out the personal feelings of anyone involved.

So I was, in the end, forced to explain why.
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That's my point. Criteria YOU have defined. Not validated, just from your experience and interpretation. That was extrapolated to making the very generalised statement that it was a **** job. I''m not saying that I disagree personally with all your criteria but your expectations may be different to many others.

Edit - lets just draw a line and agree to disagree
 
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To be honest, if GPs were to strike for days on end, would anyone notice? Getting an appointment is like trying for an audience with god at the BEST of times.
 
viv1969 said:
To be honest, if GPs were to strike for days on end, would anyone notice? Getting an appointment is like trying for an audience with god at the BEST of times.
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I have never struggled to get an appointment.



Incidentally, I was in my GP's the other day and there was a man ranting at the receptionist that his wife couldn't get to see a doctor for something urgent. The receptionist, rightly, was having none of it and pointed out that every morning they ran a drop in clinic where you just turn up and add your name to the list. You may have to sit for 2 hours (usually much less, especially if you show up in good time) but you will get seen.
 
Sir SR said:
That's my point. Criteria YOU have defined. Not validated, just from your experience and interpretation. That was extrapolated to making the very generalised statement that it was a **** job. I''m not saying that I disagree personally with all your criteria but your expectations may be different to many others.

Edit - lets just draw a line and agree to disagree
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You aren't saying you disagree (well, now you are), you're saying you didn't read my post properly by suggesting that I was in any way referencing the people actually working in the job.

Instead, let's just draw a line and agree that you need to properly comprehend what people are saying before you reply to them.
 
TriggerHappy said:
I have never struggled to get an appointment.



Incidentally, I was in my GP's the other day and there was a man ranting at the receptionist that his wife couldn't get to see a doctor for something urgent. The receptionist, rightly, was having none of it and pointed out that every morning they ran a drop in clinic where you just turn up and add your name to the list. You may have to sit for 2 hours (usually much less, especially if you show up in good time) but you will get seen.
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Come to Kensington; I have to make appointments 2 weeks down the line.
 
London Headshots said:
You aren't saying you disagree (well, now you are), you're saying you didn't read my post properly by suggesting that I was in any way referencing the people actually working in the job.

Instead, let's just draw a line and agree that you need to properly comprehend what people are saying before you reply to them.
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You've missed my point entirely. Never mind.
 
Sir SR said:
You've missed my point entirely. Never mind.
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Stop pretending you were making a point. You misread a post, and your last three replies have been rather flimsy attempts to cover it up.

It's OK to misread something, I did it (once, a long time ago), and I owned up.
 
London Headshots said:
Come to Kensington; I have to make appointments 2 weeks down the line.
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I had a look on the NHS website and there's loads of walk-in clinics in your area if there's something that needs seeing to immediately but perhaps isn't an A&E issue.
 
TriggerHappy said:
I had a look on the NHS website and there's loads of walk-in clinics in your area if there's something that needs seeing to immediately but perhaps isn't an A&E issue.
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Well, this isn't about clinics, it's about doctors appointments. I'm just teling you I have to make a doctors appointment two weeks in advance. It was a response to balance your statement that you'd never had trouble making an appointment.

That being said, you can't go to a walk-in clinic if you have a job, the waiting times are prohibitive. They're also closed between 1pm & 3pm, which rules out a lunch break visit even if said waiting times weren't a minimum of 2 hours.
 
London Headshots said:
Well, this isn't about clinics, it's about doctors appointments. I'm just teling you I have to make a doctors appointment two weeks in advance. It was a response to balance your statement that you'd never had trouble making an appointment.

That being said, you can't go to a walk-in clinic if you have a job, the waiting times are prohibitive. They're also closed between 1pm & 3pm, which rules out a lunch break visit even if said waiting times weren't a minimum of 2 hours.
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True, but I was highlighting the GPs serve a very specific role in the medical system and the criticism levelled against them for waiting times is largely undeserved and comes about more as people not knowing where they can go rather than the practices themselves being at fault.

As it happens I think 2 weeks wait is very reasonable. It gives you ample time to let work know you'll be absent for an hour or so and for them to arrange cover if it's required.

If there are more immediate medical concerns then missing a morning of work should probably fall below one's health on the list of priorities.
 
boyfalldown said:
the purpose of the renegotiation, just four years ago was to sort it surely?. Indecently the last figures show the NHS pension making a profit of £2bn. How is tax payers money being used to fund that?

I agree it does need sorting, but the current methodology used to do it is clearly not working, is it?. Theres not a single scrap of evidence it is and a lot of anger to show for it
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Agree totally...except that because part of the pension system is in the black now, doesn't mean it will be in 5 years time with people drawing pensions longer, untold final salary schemes still paying out, probably another 2-3 years of stagnant growth (more likely a depression) about to kick off this year.

Mind you, just as you can't escape the fact that public sector pensions have to be slashes....you can't escape the unions who will make everyones life a ****ing misery in the meantime.
 
The govt department I work in is decimated - rats and a sinking ship springs to mind.

Anyone with the right skills and qualifications has left for private sector, we are running on skeleton staff.

Although back end - I do believe that long term, this will impact on the general public and the service they receive.

Our local Paediatric AnE regularly involves trips of 8 hours to be seen and after a certain time (think it's 2am) there isn't even a doctor - they have to "borrow" one. The whole department is massively understaffed and barely functioning.

If a self employed GP wants to maximise earnings - GOOD for them. There are so many people in this country who begrudge others the chance to do well.

Constantly moving goal posts - that's the real issue - if you have been paying into something for 35 years and based your life plans on it - you'd be upset if they changed them with only a few years left.

I am beginning to wonder if some folks think we should all earn exactly the same minimum wage - with no reward for education, years and years of study and hardwork.

As the parent of a teenager - I wonder when I make him study, tall about uni - if there is any point tbh.
 
jacob12_1993 said:
Okay, there is some real **** being spouted here. I'll let you in on my background a bit, I'm only 19 but would say I have a fair experience of the NHS having worked there for a year and pretty much all my family works in the NHS in various medical and admin roles. Last year I applied to study medicine but didn't get in because for the 110 places available there were 4000 applicants and I just wasn't good enough. This was after working my arse off in every exam since I was 11-12 because I knew what I wanted to do. So that's 6-7 years of working as hard as possible through school to hit the top grades required to even have the opportunity to apply. Then if you are lucky enough to get a place at medical school you then have 5-6 years at University where every year you have to work, unlike most courses where the first year is a bit of a doss.

After the 11-12 years you then have another 2 foundation years earning salaries LESS than some of the Nurses on the wards etc where you are working. For me that's fair because without nurses the NHS would fall apart at the seams but you don't go in earning £80k

So that's 13 years worth of extremely hard work to be earning 27k. It then probably takes 5-10 years to be earning anywhere near the figures that are being spouted out by some on here. If anyone can name another job that requires that amount of time and dedication to achieve I am all ears.

Now from my experience of working from inside the NHS, on an more admin side of things, working in A&E and on the wards. I would see doctors working 2-3hrs past their finishing time handing over patients REGULARLY whilst not being paid. I would also see doctors having to resuscitate babies, children, adults and old age people knowing that the person's life is in their hands. How often does Mr.Car Sales Exec have to resuscitate a 5 year old child whilst its parents are crying only meters away?

Then you have the actual admin side of things. I don't think anybody who comes from the private sector would believe how inefficient the NHS is run. Being on the bottom rung of the ladder I had 5 levels of managers just to get to directorate manager, who coincidentally was earning £80K+ more than probably 99% of the medical staff.
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Have you tried Swansea Uni?
 
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