Should doctors strike?

[TriggerHappy]

It's certainly difficult & I'm not sure of the answer. I guess it would vary depending on each set of circumstances.

Blackmail's a pretty extreme choice.

Without the figures I've mentioned I can't tell if they're not listening to a grievance or being realistic.

What do you do when someone who refuses to acknowledge your argument demands something from you that you're no longer able to supply?

I was asking the broader question about alternatives to striking rather than specifically in this case because I'm undecided whether I agree with their ballot (although it's not actually striking).

I understand the difficulties people have with industrial action, especially in emergency services, but I don't think there's another way for employees to assert pressure on their employers when they feel they're unfairly treated. The problem is there's an unavoidable imbalance of power in the relationship between employer and employee. Legislative restrictions aside, other than collective action there isn't another way for employees to assert any pressure on their employers that gives them sufficient influence to effectively fight their corner.

 

[Splog]

Implied by the title of the thread and your first post.

Correct me if I've got it wrong.

S

Your wrong ..... Now corrected!

 

[Sir SR]

I don't own a wrong.

Sorry pedant in me coming out.

So what was your opinion then. Or have you been sitting back eating popcorn ;-)

 

[H2O]

I was asking the broader question about alternatives to striking rather than specifically in this case

Ahhh, well as I said I think alternatives would vary by case.

To start with though the numbers needed to call a strike need to be higher. At the moment it's as stupid as the number of voters needed to elect a government. ;-)

A good start I'd think would be for an impartial 3rd party to review both sides cases & publish the facts of what each side is offering (without spin). Then the great British pubic could take an informed view on which side to support.

 

[Splog]

I don't own a wrong.

Sorry pedant in me coming out.

So what was your opinion then. Or have you been sitting back eating popcorn ;-)

Popcorn? Perhaps you should just go to bed! . ... Goodnight. XXX

 

[Sir SR]

Popcorn? Perhaps you should just go to bed! . ... Goodnight. XXX

Popcorn was a tongue in cheek reference to lighting the fuse and watching the fireworks. However I seemed to have glossed over your post where you said you agreed that doctors shouldn't strike earlier in the thread. Apologies.

Also as you are neither my wife nor my mother, you have no business telling me when to go to bed.

S

edited - sarcasm comes across harshly in text. The above is not intended to be offensive/rude!

 

[TriggerHappy]

Ahhh, well as I said I think alternatives would vary by case.

To start with though the numbers needed to call a strike need to be higher. At the moment it's as stupid as the number of voters needed to elect a government. ;-)

A good start I'd think would be for an impartial 3rd party to review both sides cases & publish the facts of what each side is offering (without spin). Then the great British pubic could take an informed view on which side to support.

At least we agree about the current voting system

The trouble is, as these threads highlight, a huge number of people simply think "times are hard, I'm struggling and so should everyone else". You'd have a huge problem ensuring that the people voting were sufficiently informed about the circumstances to be both fair and impartial. I also doubt that either organisations or workers would freely hand over their decision making powers to the public. Ideologically I understand where you're coming from, I just don't think it would produce fair outcomes for either side. And then there's the consideration of the cost of balloting the public when these issues arise.

 

[H2O]

O, I don't mean to actually make the public vote. Just generally supporting one side or the other can add a lot of pressure to make them find a solution.

Once you're on strike everyone's losing. Even those who shouldn't be involved at all. Especially now with the economy so fragile.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

The pensions are estimated at around £68k a year plus a lump sum payment of over £80k. If you can't manage with that sort of inflated payment (compared with most working people) then you need to analyse your lifestyle.

Or go and work in the private sector, then we can all "enjoy" an American-style healthcare system

 

[archamedes]

doctors have been surviving pretty well over the years, debt or no debt. I think its the nurses who deserve better pay and higher pensions.

Don't like the debt or the current pay? Become a dentist instead. Only study 2 pages of the medical book then shaft the patient by telling him theres no nhs dentists in the area and those braces are gonna cost a new mercedes and a greenhouse.

 

[Sir SR]

doctors have been surviving pretty well over the years, debt or no debt. I think its the nurses who deserve better pay and higher pensions.

Don't like the debt or the current pay? Become a dentist instead. Only study 2 pages of the medical book then shaft the patient by telling him theres no nhs dentists in the area and those braces are gonna cost a new mercedes and a greenhouse.

Surely you'd prefer your doctor to actually want to be a doctor.

Equally unfair to dentists and doctors. Agree about the nurses.

S

 

[archamedes]

well yes if you want to be a doctor because you genuinly care about people and want to make them better then it should be about that and not about the money. its the medical volunteers that go of to 3rd world countries and work for little or no money that I have the most respect for because you know they are really only in it for the people, you don't see the red cross going on strike

 

[TriggerHappy]

well yes if you want to be a doctor because you genuinly care about people and want to make them better then it should be about that and not about the money. its the medical volunteers that go of to 3rd world countries and work for little or no money that I have the most respect for because you know they are really only in it for the people, you don't see the red cross going on strike

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Local-Red-Cross-Workers-Strike--122494184.html

http://news.yahoo.com/red-cross-strike-lansing-enters-seventh-week-193610825.html

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2011/09/red_cross_workers_strike_over.html

http://buffalo.indymedia.org/content/red-cross-workers-go-nationwide-strike

Just a small sample

 

[archamedes]

ok then i guess you do then

 

[Sir SR]

well yes if you want to be a doctor because you genuinly care about people and want to make them better then it should be about that and not about the money. its the medical volunteers that go of to 3rd world countries and work for little or no money that I have the most respect for because you know they are really only in it for the people, you don't see the red cross going on strike

I can't imagine that Doctors go into medicine for the money. Given the pre requisite GCSE/A-level requirements and length of study, they would be able to do better paid jobs. I'm sure I read somewhere that the applicants to med school are in the top 4% in the country.

I remember being in Cheam (Surrey) a while ago, witnessing a guy come off his peddle bike. Within 5 mins, three separate doctors who were passing by had stopped their cars and helped. These are the kind of people who go into medicine IMHO.

 

[gramps]

Where has that figure come from gramps? It smells of government spin. Am happy to be corrected.

I thought it was routine work that was being stopped. Life saving, a&e, cancer work and emergencies were carrying on. Again happy to be corrected.

As an aside Gramps, how would you propose that doctors should protest. As I said earlier, from speaking to doctors, it's the gradual chipping away.

My heart bleeds for them ... Average GP pay has risen to £106,000, those in practices with a pharmacy can reportedly earn over £200,000.

"Routine work" = someone's appointment that they may have been waiting weeks or months for, maybe someone's 'elective' surgery ... hip/knee replacement or eye operation ... are you saying that cancelling these is an acceptable way of protesting?

Protest by non-cooperation with government requirements/admin etc if you wish but do nothing that adversely affects the patients - there will be overwhelming lack of support for this action amongst the general public.

Please read all of what I wrote and then respond again :bang:.

I do NOT support the action, but they can be hardly called strikes.

I read it perfectly the first time, my comment was appropriate, it is an attack on patients, they are the ones who will suffer the inconvenience for this ... call it what you like action.
By the way mind your head-banging, there may not be a doctor willing to treat you!

Or go and work in the private sector, then we can all "enjoy" an American-style healthcare system

Aren't we almost there anyway?
Consultants do part-time NHS and part-time private - I needed a consultation a couple of years ago ... I could wait over 6 months to see a consultant on the NHS or pay him to be seen the following Tuesday in his private clinic!

 

[ding76uk]

Protest by non-cooperation with government requirements/admin etc if you wish but do nothing that adversely affects the patients - there will be overwhelming lack of support for this action amongst the general public.

How do you suggest they do this? The reason for lack of support is the complete lack of disregard for anyone but oneself amongst the current population.

Is there any public sector that you think shouldn't have to be cut and meddled with?

 

[boyfalldown]

The reason for lack of support is the complete lack of disregard for anyone but oneself amongst the current population.

I can't help but agree with you. Although I do think its an attitude that encouraged /fostered by the current powers that be (sorry for touching on the political)

I'm not sure I support the strike, but I don't really see what other legitimate protest there are available

 

[H2O]

The reason for lack of support is the complete lack of disregard for anyone but oneself amongst the current population.

No.

There is a lack of support because it seems like they'll still have subsidised pensions that we can't get.

So to the general public they're removing part of a service that's very important to us so they can still be significantly better off in retirement than everyone else. They're coming across as selfish.

Unless they'd like to prove that wrong by showing the math proving that each person pays in enough to cover their own pension?

 

[boyfalldown]

No.

There is a lack of support because it seems like they'll still have subsidised pensions that we can't get.

So to the general public they're removing part of a service that's very important to us so they can still be significantly better off in retirement than everyone else. They're coming across as selfish.

Unless they'd like to prove that wrong by showing the math proving that each person pays in enough to cover their own pension?

The nhs pension scheme is currently £2 bn in credit. How much more math would you like?

 

[gramps]

How do you suggest they do this? The reason for lack of support is the complete lack of disregard for anyone but oneself amongst the current population.

Is there any public sector that you think shouldn't have to be cut and meddled with?

The disregard is on the part of the doctors for their patients ... the foundation principle for a doctor is "1st do no harm" ... this action will not harm the government it will harm the patients - it's the easy way!
The public sector has to accept that there is no reason why those in the private sector and the hard-pressed tax-payer in general should cushion them from reality.
It's difficult for everyone ... those who will actually have a pension, (and a good one at that), on top of a lump sum and probably an income on the side need to do a reality check!

 

[Mikesphotaes]

Then he should read the thread title...

One did and they aren't!

 

[ding76uk]

The disregard is on the part of the doctors for their patients ... the foundation principle for a doctor is "1st do no harm" ... this action will not harm the government it will harm the patients - it's the easy way!
The public sector has to accept that there is no reason why those in the private sector and the hard-pressed tax-payer in general should cushion them from reality.
It's difficult for everyone ... those who will actually have a pension, (and a good one at that), on top of a lump sum and probably an income on the side need to do a reality check!

Do you think doctors don't pay tax? And a damn site more than most!

Those who do not put anything into a pension (mostly in private sector) are worse. They pee all money away with no planning for the future.

I don't have a pension like that crowd. Well you should maybe have fought harder to protect your rights when you had the chance. Don't blame those who have the chance and are doing something about it!

 

[joxang]

Gramps, it ever occurred to you that those figures you're quoting might be massively overstated? £160k? £200k?! Really?!!

I'd like to guess what newspapers you read but I don't want to be rude.

 

[boyfalldown]

somewhat ironically even the Tax Man has now voted to strike http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jun/01/hmrc-staff-vote-strike-action

 

[jimmyb]

Those who do not put anything into a pension (mostly in private sector) are worse. They pee all money away with no planning for the future.

the harsh reality is that when my generation get's to retirement age there will be no retirement age, you will literally die on the job.

 

[Sir SR]

My heart bleeds for them ... Average GP pay has risen to £106,000, those in practices with a pharmacy can reportedly earn over £200,000.

I too was astounded by that figure. If you look beneath the spin........

Thats only if they're self employed - they have to pay other things out of that - up to 70%. Granted they're not poor, but nowhere near the inflated sums being banded about.

I do hope your heart doesn't really bleed for them......who do you think will fix it

Please, as I did, do a little research before believing the gospel according to the Daily Mail.

 

[Sir SR]

The disregard is on the part of the doctors for their patients ... the foundation principle for a doctor is "1st do no harm" ... this action will not harm the government it will harm the patients - it's the easy way!
The public sector has to accept that there is no reason why those in the private sector and the hard-pressed tax-payer in general should cushion them from reality.
It's difficult for everyone ... those who will actually have a pension, (and a good one at that), on top of a lump sum and probably an income on the side need to do a reality check!

From what I read they're not doing HARM. What's the definition of elective? All emergency work is still being carried out. If I got run over on the 21st I'd still be looked after. God I hope I don't get run over!! But thats just an example.

What's the viable option for non-cooperation then Gramps?

 

[gramps]

From what I read they're not doing HARM. What's the definition of elective?

'Elective' = non-emergency, includes hip replacement, knee replacement, cataract, hernia and many more. Preventing these operations taking place causes direct harm to those suffering.

What's the viable option for non-cooperation then Gramps?

It isn't my responsibility to formulate a viable option, except to say if it affects a patient adversely, don't do it! Do not hold patients to ransom in an effort to increase your already substantial income.

 

[gramps]

I do hope your heart doesn't really bleed for them......who do you think will fix it

Actually quite a good question - the reality is that, as with most of the community, the personal desire often overcomes the sense of responsibility.
The doctor is not always there for you, as in my experience mentioned above ... pay and I can see him privately, (actually 2nd question when I arrived in his private practice was "How are you going to pay?") ... no finance and you wait while he spends time on his 'private' patients before working 'privately' with NHS facilities (theatres, equipment etc).
I have every reason to be thankful for the work of several doctors (and anaesthetists) but just because they 'save lives' does not mean that they are any more worthy than well qualified members of other professions ... it's just the emotional that gets in the way.
To the unquestioning patient the doctor is god but to the knowledgeable patient the reality is often very different.

 

[Johnd2000]

Actually quite a good question - the reality is that, as with most of the community, the personal desire often overcomes the sense of responsibility.
The doctor is not always there for you, as in my experience mentioned above ... pay and I can see him privately, (actually 2nd question when I arrived in his private practice was "How are you going to pay?") ... no finance and you wait while he spends time on his 'private' patients before working 'privately' with NHS facilities (theatres, equipment etc).
I have every reason to be thankful for the work of several doctors (and anaesthetists) but just because they 'save lives' does not mean that they are any more worthy than well qualified members of other professions ... it's just the emotional that gets in the way.
To the unquestioning patient the doctor is god but to the knowledgeable patient the reality is often very different.

Good point, and precisely the reason why they should be well rewarded. I don't want my GP to have to top up his income with private work (or worse by taking drug co and service provider "incentives"). NHS pay rates need to be sufficient to mitigate the risk that patient care decisions become less clinical and more financial. GP commissioning is likely to increase that risk, so hitting pay/pensions at the same time is complete madness.

 

[BarryDawsib]

My understanding is that they're being shafted.

A friend is a GP. She graduated with 60k of debt. She would pay 40% tax and nearly 30% into the pension.

Don't know about you but to work that hard after that many years study to earn only 30% doesn't seem quite fair to me.

Its the same for a lot of public sector workers, police, fire, medical and the like, to quote one friend a lot are between a rock and a hard place, if they where to leave they would loose all they had paid in, they are just shy of the number of years required to fall in to that safe zone for pensions and if they stay they will get considerably less while paying more aka all they have paid in thus far is worthless :thumbsdown:

My worry is, we're always going to need doctors. Where will tomorrows docs come from?!?

Same for a lot of industry's and areas of work now,,, some close to my heart are quoted that no one wants to come in and those few that are coming in are cutting losses and leaving within a few years because your flogging yourself with no chance of bettering your life.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

My heart bleeds for them ... Average GP pay has risen to £106,000, those in practices with a pharmacy can reportedly earn over £200,000.

Really?

nhscareers.co.uk

Salaried GPs employed directly by PCTs earn between £53,781 to £81,158, dependent on, among other factors, length of service and experience

That's a lot less than your £106k, can you cite a source to back up your figures? If you're complaining that the £53-81k is also too much, that the sort of money one big car dealer group up here advertises as the salary range for it's sales staff and they haven't had to spend years at university, or years in A&E up to their elbows in other people's blood and faeces....

 

[jimmyb]

Really?



That's a lot less than your £106k, can you cite a source to back up your figures? If you're complaining that the £53-81k is also too much, that the sort of money one big car dealer group up here advertises as the salary range for it's sales staff and they haven't had to spend years at university, or years in A&E up to their elbows in other people's blood and faeces....

That's been the figure printed in the press so that's the figure people are naturally going to go off, admittedly it will be over exaggerated.

The figures you've stated above are employed directly by the NHS, I doubt (will stand corrected) that pay bracket includes GP surgery partners, the money made from private work and the other charges GPs make (driver medicals and the such).

Nurses, cleaners, waste process workers, sewer workers and a whole variety of other workers spend their working lives upto their elbows in blood, faeces and a whole range of other peoples nasties, the majority of which get paid a small fraction of a doctors salary, and will never be in the situation to pay into a subsidised pension, let alone complain about the conditions of that pension so please don't say that doctors have earned that salary any more than anyone else might have.

 

[ding76uk]

That's been the figure printed in the press so that's the figure people are naturally going to go off, admittedly it will be over exaggerated in the press though.

The figures you've stated above are employed directly by the NHS, I doubt (will stand corrected) that pay bracket includes GP partners, the money made from private work and the other charges GPs make (driver medicals and the such).

Nurses, cleaners, waste process workers, sewer workers and a whole variety of other workers spend their working lives upto their elbows in blood, faeces and a whole range of other peoples nasties, the majority of which get paid a small fraction of a doctors salary, and will never be in the situation to pay into a subsidised pension, let alone complain about the conditions of that pension so please don't say that doctors have earned that salary any more than anyone else might have.

Really, comparing a waste process worker and a doctor? Not sure how many sewer workers are responsible for life and death on a day to day basis.

Bash doctors, until you need an operation.

Bash teachers until little Johnny needs educating

Bash police, until you have been attacked.

Etc. etc. etc.

Easy to say they have it easy, but when you need these people do you not want them to be committed and well looked after so they put 100% into the job? Doctors are the people all of us need at some point. I am happy to see them rewarded for their work, and think nurses etc should also be given a pay rise.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

The figures you've stated above are employed directly by the NHS, I doubt (will stand corrected) that pay bracket includes GP surgery partners, the money made from private work and the other charges GPs make (driver medicals and the such).

I'm aware of that, however, afaik the venom being directed towards doctors in this thread seems to stem from them being in the public employ, those figures would seem to indicate that, especially at £53k, it's not an over-paid profession, particularly when there are (or were before the current recession) many used car salesmen on higher wages.

Nurses, cleaners, waste process workers, sewer workers and a whole variety of other workers spend their working lives upto their elbows in blood, faeces and a whole range of other peoples nasties, the majority of which get paid a small fraction of a doctors salary, and will never be in the situation to pay into a subsidised pension, let alone complain about the conditions of that pension so please don't say that doctors have earned that salary any more than anyone else might have.

I knew as soon as I wrote that about blood and faeces that someone would say "what about the nurses etc", and whilst I agree that nurses are not fairly compensated for the work they do, are you really saying that just because someone (in the case of, say, a cleaner) has left school with no qualifications that working in a job with human waste products should automatically entitle them to a pay and pension package equal to that of someone who has spent many years and many thousands of pounds gaining an education, comrade?

 

[joxang]

... thousands of pounds gaining an education, comrade?

Got a lol from me

 

[andyscott]

Ok I work in the NHS, should doctors strike, yes, but for the below reasons

Whether or not we agree with the salaries and the amount they get in pensions. They signed up with a sort of contract, you do this and you get X. Its not about the actual numbers its about changing it.

Do I think they do it for the money, of course, hence why they do so much private work on the side!!! Is that because they want to help, is it *******s, its because they want the cash.
Do I think the pension is to much and the salary to high, of course. This working all hours contracts etc, is rubbish. They have job plans, that gets them plenty of time off, how many of them play golf midweek?
Junior doctors it is tough, but so it should be, plenty of them do not deserve high salaries, they are still "training".

 

[gramps]

That's a lot less than your £106k, can you cite a source to back up your figures? If you're complaining that the £53-81k is also too much, that the sort of money one big car dealer group up here advertises as the salary range for it's sales staff and they haven't had to spend years at university, or years in A&E up to their elbows in other people's blood and faeces....

£53k-81k, is enough for a GP who will probably never experience blood or faeces in his entire GP career - everyone has to train and often under difficult conditions. Some people have found their training of no use to them, they no longer have a job, let alone a pension and lump sum payment to fall back on - they have to live in the 'real' world.
However your figures are only for those directly employed by the PCT, those under new contract arrangements can and do earn the figures I quoted ... you can check details yourself at the BMA site but unfortunately it will cost you £20 to register and download the stats!

The 10-year period saw the introduction of a controversial contract which increased average GP pay by 47%, to £106,000. Meanwhile, nine out of ten family doctors stopped providing care at weekends and evenings.

Report

More than 160 GPs are better paid than the Prime Minister and one earns more than £500,000 a year, NHS trusts have admitted.
The doctors were the main winners of Labour's controversial shake-up of healthcare, which saw the average GP's salary rise to £106,000.
The figures, disclosed under Freedom of Information laws, reveal that 161 GPs had annual earnings of £200,000 or more in the tax year 2008-09, the most recent for which figures are available. Their wages dwarf the £142,500 earned by David Cameron.

The highest-paid GP, who is a senior partner and owner of two practices in the London borough of Hillingdon, has declared annual earnings from the NHS of £507,241. The same doctor earned in excess of £400,000 in each of the previous three financial years. It is not known whether the income relates solely to the GP practices or whether he or she had carried out other work for the NHS.

Report

 

[Flash In The Pan]

£53k-81k, is enough for a GP who will probably never experience blood or faeces in his entire GP career - everyone has to train and often under difficult conditions.

Fair enough, so perhaps peg their salary against, oh, I dunno, a senior officer in the Fire Service, would that be fair?

Report

"Average" is an interesting term, as it is skewed by the salaries of the tiny proportion who earn huge sums

Report

And that proves my point.

161 GPs had annual earnings of £200,000 or more in the tax year 2008-09

Fair enough, but there are (as of Oct 2010) 41349 GPs in the UK, so the fact that a tiny percentage are on high earnings doesn't mean they all are...