Should doctors strike?

Splog

Splog

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No
They're paid well and have good pensions already...... Comments appreciated..:)
 
I don't think they should
 
My understanding is that they're being shafted.

A friend is a GP. She graduated with 60k of debt. She would pay 40% tax and nearly 30% into the pension.

Don't know about you but to work that hard after that many years study to earn only 30% doesn't seem quite fair to me.
 
Describing the creation of the NHS in 1948, Nye Bevin famously said of the British Medical Association "I stuffed their mouths with gold!"

It seems the doctors have been eating well for the past 64 years! Only now are their mouths empty and need stuffing again!
 
Yves Geza said:
Describing the creation of the NHS in 1948, Nye Bevin famously said of the British Medical Association "I stuffed their mouths with gold!"

It seems the doctors have been eating well for the past 64 years! Only now are their mouths empty and need stuffing again!
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That's nice. You should try being a doctor in this day and age. My next rotation is acute med/A&E. That means 12 days of 9-5 (though I'll be in at 8 every day, and out at 7 if I'm lucky) with two days off. For that, I'm paid less than my friend, who's an optometrist and works a steady 5 day 9-5 and has been working (and getting paid) for three years longer than me. Oh, and with the new EU working hours laws, we don't get paid overtime either. Also, from the 6 years of study I did I still have 30k+ of debt to pay off.

Let's get rid of this myth that doctors are paid loads and do no work. Yes it's a well paid job, but many of the doctors I know are also the hardest workers I know of anyone in any job (nurses aside!), and for the first 5-6 years of being a doctor you are paid a pittance for what you do. People don't become doctors for the money. If you do, you quickly leave after the first couple of years. You're in it because you enjoy the work.

That said I don't agree with the strike, but I think doctors should be paid a substantial pension. I also think that teachers and nurses should be paid a lot more but it's public money...so what can you do :suspect:.
 
Splog said:
Neither do I.... :thumbs:
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Agreed that striking is an extreme measure. What do you suggest as an alternative means for Doctors to protest?

They will always have the "patient safety" thrown at them, which IMHO, the government use to their advantage. As I understand it all emergency work will still be covered.
 
All I can say is you're not living in the real world.

Do you want to tell us you annual salary?

joxang said:
That's nice. You should try being a doctor in this day and age. My next rotation is acute med/A&E. That means 12 days of 9-5 (though I'll be in at 8 every day, and out at 7 if I'm lucky) with two days off. For that, I'm paid less than my friend, who's an optometrist and works a steady 5 day 9-5 and has been working (and getting paid) for three years longer than me. Oh, and with the new EU working hours laws, we don't get paid overtime either. Also, from the 6 years of study I did I still have 30k+ of debt to pay off.

Let's get rid of this myth that doctors are paid loads and do no work. Yes it's a well paid job, but many of the doctors I know are also the hardest workers I know of anyone in any job (nurses aside!), and for the first 5-6 years of being a doctor you are paid a pittance for what you do. People don't become doctors for the money. If you do, you quickly leave after the first couple of years. You're in it because you enjoy the work.

That said I don't agree with the strike, but I think doctors should be paid a substantial pension. I also think that teachers and nurses should be paid a lot more but it's public money...so what can you do :suspect:.
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admirable said:
All I can say is you're not living in the real world.

Do you want to tell us you annual salary?
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Thy seems an inappropriate question.

You show him yours.......
 
Not an inappropriate question at all, he's the one moaning!

I'm on 27K pa
 
If you really want to know the salary, look on the BMA website.

It's a standardised thing. Then take off the 30k of Debt accrued.

My worry is, we're always going to need doctors. Where will tomorrows docs come from?!?
 
admirable said:
Not an inappropriate question at all, he's the one moaning!

I'm on 27K pa
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So probably more than a junior doctor who's been working less years and accrued more debt.
 
What's with all this debt crap?

Are doctors the only folks with debt?
 
joxang said:
Oh, and with the new EU working hours laws, we don't get paid overtime either.
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Surely this cannot be true as it would be illegal. Does that mean you work for free once you exceed the maximum number of hours ?
 
30k of debt (quite often more from what I've read and people spoken to) at the age of 23. That's BEFORE even starting work.
 
Doctors in training
Doctors in training earn a basic salary and will be paid a supplement if they work more than 40 hours and/or work outside the hours of 7am-7pm Monday to Friday.

In the most junior hospital trainee post (Foundation Year 1) the basic starting salary is £22,412. This increases in Foundation Year 2 to £27,798. For a doctor in specialist training the basic starting salary is £29,705. If the doctor is contracted to work more than 40 hours and/or to work outside 7am-7pm Monday to Friday, they will receive an additional supplement which will normally be between 20% and 50% of basic salary. This supplement is based on the extra hours worked above a 40 hour standard working week and the intensity of the work.

from the NHS site
 
ziggy© said:
Surely this cannot be true as it would be illegal. Does that mean you work for free once you exceed the maximum number of hours ?
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I suspect that if your loved one was ill in hospital at clocking off time, you'd want the doctor to stay rather than down tools and go home.
 
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There's heaps of folk with debt after finishing Uni, why should doc's be any different?

Sir SR said:
30k of debt (quite often more from what I've read and people spoken to) at the age of 23. That's BEFORE even starting work.
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admirable said:
There's heaps of folk with debt after finishing Uni, why should doc's be any different?
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Depends on how much you value the quality of medical care. And correct me if I'm wrong but doctors aren't asking for more money are they?!?

If you make it unattractive to become a doctor, who are you going to attract as the next generation of doctors?
 
So the strike action is down to only getting a £68,000 a year pension?
 
Missed this interesting discussion.

Pre tax I'm on 29k.

The EU working hours thing? We're only allowed to work a certain amount of time, but in a busy district hospital there is absolutely no way you can run away when the handover (timetabled at 30 minutes) runs over the two hour mark because you have that many patients and several more that you need to send home because you don't have enough beds. So we don't get paid for the overtime as we're technically not meant to be doing it, but obviously you do it anyway.

Yeh there's heaps of folk in debt after uni. But we do a 6 year course, so we tend to be in more debt. Our first two-four years we earn pretty much the average graduate salary (bear in mind other graduates have 3 years extra earning on us). It gets better after that.

I'm sorry if this sounds like a moan. I do not think we should be paid more, because the job is so rewarding. If anything, I think nurses get an unbelievably rubbish deal at the moment, and don't get much credit. I do get annoyed though, at people who think doctors are all entitled and rich, and get loads of money for doing nothing. That's my only problem ;).
 
Flash In The Pan said:
No, the strike is down to someone moving the goalposts.....
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but are they not just lining them up with non public sector workers?

Everyone wants the government to cut spending, but no one wants it to be them.
 
I know three doctors one who is retired and gets circa £80,000 pa pension.

Don't try and tell me they are finding it hard to live!

From the BBC.

Health Secretary Andrew Lansley said: "The public will not understand or sympathise with the BMA.

"People know that pension reform is needed as people live longer and to be fair in future for everyone."

He said the NHS pension would remain "one of the best available anywhere", pointing out a new doctor joining the revised scheme could still expect a pension of £68,000 a year on retirement.
 
stokecity_m said:
but are they not just lining them up with non public sector workers?

Everyone wants the government to cut spending, but no one wants it to be them.
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In that case perhaps the doctors should also have been getting the perks that a similar level private sector job would have afforded them...
 
Docs are not planning a strike, but planning to have a day of Industrial Action. They will still be at work...No piggots or anything.
 
stokecity_m said:
So the strike action is down to only getting a £68,000 a year pension?
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Interesting spin on it. I'm not sure I believe those figures. From what I've read......the magic word is could. I could run the 100m in under 12 seconds, but very unlikely in my heffalump state!!

I gather the main source of angst is having to pay more into a pension for longer (which has already been paid into by doctors) which is already millions in credit.

I think the doctors ( nurses physiotherapists and other ancillary staff ) who looked after my Nan on The intensive care unit, fixed my mums hip, looked after me when I was as sick as a dog in hospital for three weeks; deserve what they've already paid into.
 
Yes doctors should be allowed to fight for there rights and livelihood... just like anyone else.

To all the bitter moaners in this thread....

Wait until the government comes knocking on your door and says "We want to pay you less, tax you more, make you pay even more into your pension and for longer because we are increasing the age at which you can retire at" - I bet you will be looking to strike and fight for rights and likelihoods.

Maybe we should just do away with the NHS all together and make medical care private - make you all pay for your health care in real terms
 
Yes doctors should be allowed to fight for there rights and livelihood... just like anyone else.
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Agree with that!
 
Keith W said:
Maybe we should just do away with the NHS all together and make medical care private - make you all pay for your health care in real terms
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You don't, he said straying perilously close to making a political point, think that's exactly what the current administration want?
 
Keith W said:
Maybe we should just do away with the NHS all together and make medical care private - make you all pay for your health care in real terms
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Although it's not something I want to see, privatising health care might make us value the medical profession a bit more. Nobody seems to value them til they need them.
 
Sir SR said:
which is already millions in credit..
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The current outgoings vs incomings is irrelevant.

Money going in now should be to cover the cost of the pensions not yet claimed by current active employees.

IMO no one should have a final salary/ average earnings pension. They should all be linked directly to the money paid in while working.

If doctors (or anyone else) deserves more pay then they should get it now directly in their pay packet. Not as an open ended money pit of a pension.
 
H2O said:
The current outgoings vs incomings is irrelevant.

Money going in now should be to cover the cost of the pensions not yet claimed by current active employees.

IMO no one should have a final salary/ average earnings pension. They should all be linked directly to the money paid in while working.

If doctors (or anyone else) deserves more pay then they should get it now directly in their pay packet. Not as an open ended money pit of a pension.
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Sorry. Two billion in credit. That is not an irrelevant sum. And the pensions were renegotiated a couple of years ago to make it sustainable.

Also if the doctors were "sold" the decent pension at the end of career and the goalposts changed, you can see the reason why some doctors are agrieved.

As I say. I'm grateful to all the medical staff that have looked after myself and my family. They deserve a decent pension, or at least the one they were promised.
 
2 billion is it? How many people is that going to pay for and for how long?

I'd expect very little of it was put there by the people currently drawing on it? Without knowing the estimated total future liability that figure is just propaganda.

With people living longer I really don't see how any individual on a final salary scheme can pay in enough to cover their own pension as long as they don't die young.

Would someone mind showing the math on an individual basis to prove that type of scheme is not greatly subsidised?
 
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No. No one should be allowed to strike. The majority of occupations (not all) that are involved in strikes are careers that people have chosen to go into, don't go into something knowing the conditions then complain when you're doing it. Likewise don't go to uni then complain about being in debt, you knew that would happen before you started.

simples.

Wait until the government comes knocking on your door and says "We want to pay you less, tax you more, make you pay even more into your pension and for longer because we are increasing the age at which you can retire at"
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and that's not happening to everyone at the moment is it not!?

A lot of the conditions that people going on strike protesting about as being "poor" are the absolute dream to a lot of workers/employees.



Rant over :D
 
Isn't the point at the moment that the pension fund is actually subsidising other things at the moment. My understanding was that the actual pension received isn't subsidised as such. I thought the pension payments by current workers paid for the pensions received?!? It's seems to have worked and seems fair recompense to the medical profession who work with limitations to look after us.

Does anybody know what happens to the NHS pension scheme if Doctors don't contribute into it?

I'm sure an economist will be along soon to explain it all.....
 
jimmyb said:
No. No one should be allowed to strike. The majority of occupations (not all) that are involved in strikes are careers that people have chosen to go into, don't go into something knowing the conditions then complain when you're doing it.

Rant over :D
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So what happens when the goalposts are moved and the conditions have changed?!
 
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