Shooting Junior football...CRB check?

My £0.02 .....
I started shooting junior sports around 6 years ago. First football and then included junior cricket. The whole issue of whether you are "allowed" or not is full of urban myth: "You have to do ...", "You have to have ...." - and to be honest, most of what a lot of people say is total rubbish. As Kipax says, CRB checks are for those who come into contact with children - potentially on a one to one basis as part of their specific role with the club or group. Photographers should never have cause to work on such a basis with an individual child and therefore there is no need for photographers to have a CRB check.

However .... there are many people associated with junior sports clubs who think that a CRB certificate is a sort of required badge for anyone who interacts with children and it certainly helps if you can say that you have a CRB certificate. I have NEVER had to show any of my CRB certificates to anybody and believe that only the registration number on the certificate should be disclosed to a third party anyway. Saying that, I have confidently - and truthfully - told people that I have a "CRB" and that seems to shut them up!

Like Kipax, I arrange things BEFORE the games, if practical to do so, with the managers - and I always go over to them in a friendly way before each game to introduce myself. If any doubts get expressed, I explain that I understand the rules - not to identify anybody by name or even by club and that I will only take photographs which show the particular sport in its best light - the FA literature has more on this but you should avoid taking photographs of anybody not obeying the FA rules about jewelery for example.

Of course, from time to time you get the totally stupid ones: "What are you doin'?", "Taking photographs of the game", "What for?", "I put together a presentation at the end of each season at presentation night" (or some such response), "I mainly take action shots of our players"... "But our lads will be in the shots", "Yes I guess they will be"... "Does the manager know?" ... "Yes" .. "I'll check!!!".. "OK", "I know what you're doin' - your taking pictures to see how we play so you can use them in your training!". (Walks off). Goes to the manager and asks that I stop taking pictures. Manager has to comply and he asks me to stop - which I do through gritted teeth. No worries, there will be another game next week.

Now .... I also publish my shots on the web - oh dear! Another can of worms opens up if you mention that in the wrong company but most are happy for that and the opposition will often ask for the website address - phew!

I had a ref once who made the remark "I hope none of these will go on the internet .... I have three daughters ...." At this point, I was expecting a story of how this had happened, that had happened ... but no, he went on, "... and they think I've stopped reffin' and I don't want them to find out that I am still doing it".

Final bit to concur with the Kipax comment.

A couple of seasons ago, I completed a CRB certificate, listing myself as a photographer - my Cricket club asked me to complete the form. It came back - the ECB don't see photographer as a job which requires CRB checking. However, I changed it and added "Assistant coach" to the photographer bit and it went through without a hitch. This season, over 18 players who play in teams which are likely to have U18s playing in them will also need CRB checks - they might end up talking to an U18 on their own! The whole thing is getting out of hand in my opinion.

Alan
 
I am 6ft 5in and 20 stones, I take what I want where I want and never been approached by anyone...... :lol:
 
All you need to is approach the parents of the teams before the match and ask permission.
 
KIPAX said:
No its not fair enough and its the wrong way to go about it..
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Kipax

What would you suggest I do then for my first game. Ideally getting in touch with the coaches before matchday is the best way to go.

But if this is not possible would you just recommend I let the coaches of each team know what I am doing and seek their approval, that way I can direct people who may object to their respective teams manager.
 
I am a youth football manager and we do not get any photographers at our games.. if one just turned up without letting us know in advance then I would most definitely be asking him/her questions. The best way, as stated is to ask both managers and get them to let the parents know the game will be photographed.

If asked, I would have no issue at all in letting someone shoot the match.

As I said before, if it was just an anonymous person turn up with a cam and start shooting pics of the lads then it is my ~DUTY~ to go and ask them what they are up to.

Unfortunately we do live in a world with a lot of dodgy people doing dodgy stuff so just ASK first and there should be no problem at all.

In saying that though, some parents can be a bit funny about having their children photographed. I actually took the photo when we won the local cup and one parent withdrew their child from the pictures and did not want their name printed in the report.
 
Marac said:
That`s all well and good, but assuming you were in a public place, the likely response will be "Taking photos, what`s it got to do with you".
Then what would you say?

Unfortunately, a paedophile is not going to say that is what he is and even if he did you probably wouldn`t believe him.

It is also quite likely that the photographer who turns up unannounced has not come to photograph the game, but maybe was walking through the park with his new DSLR and decided to try it out.

I suppose what I am asking is what answers would you be happy with and if you were not happy what do you think you would/could do about it?
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redmonkee said:
Kipax

What would you suggest I do then for my first game. Ideally getting in touch with the coaches before matchday is the best way to go.

But if this is not possible would you just recommend I let the coaches of each team know what I am doing and seek their approval, that way I can direct people who may object to their respective teams manager.
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I already gave my answer .. reply 15 :)
 
Marac said:
As I said before, if it was just an anonymous person turn up with a cam and start shooting pics of the lads then it is my ~DUTY~ to go and ask them what they are up to..
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Thats not the duty of a football manager.. and Why? what would you want to know for?
 
We live in a world in which (in my area at least), parents are asked NOT to take photographs of children at school sports days - in fact of any children in any school activity. Now if parents are being stopped from taking pics, how do you think they would react if someone else came along with a big camera? You need to play everything by the rules. Ask the managers who has responsibility for the children, he/she will ask the parents if he/she feels it necessary to do so. (A lot of clubs have a photography waiver clause in their membership pack which gives the manager responsibility for sorting our this sort of thing). There is no point getting into arguments about your rights, public places, paedophiles - anything - you stand no chance of convincing anybody that they MUST play by YOUR rules.

If you get a "Yes" - be nice, be friendly, do the best you can and offer to share the pictures with the club. If you get a "No", say "Thank you", be polite, be nice, be friendly and maybe enquire whether you could ask again at the next game.

Alan
 
Alzibiff said:
If you get a "Yes" - be nice, be friendly, do the best you can and offer to share the pictures with the club. If you get a "No", say "Thank you", be polite, be nice, be friendly and maybe enquire whether you could ask again at the next game.
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absoloutly... or simply move to the next team.. there are a lot of em about :)

I think the key is to get on google.. find contacts for all your local teams and ask in advance... dont just turn up and ask..

totaly agree with Alzibiff here... whats the point of being in the right if no one is interested... roll wiht it and make the best of it :)
 
KIPAX said:
Thats not the duty of a football manager.. and Why? what would you want to know for?
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I have a responsibility to the lads, they are under 15 that is why I feel it is my DUTY to be aware of who is snapping photos.. If the photographer just simply said hi I am trying out my new DSLR or whatever then that is cool with me. If he started getting mouthy and stropy then I would call the police, simple. I would not be aggressive to them so would not expect it back, it really depends on reaction.

The park is a public place I agree and he is in his rights to take photos I agree, after all, I am a tog myself. but I think it is manners (even if the tog is just passing through with his new DSLR or walking the dog) to actually ASK if it is OK to take photos...

You know? MANNERS, do we remember to uphold some kind of respect.

I also stated if the guy/girl ASKED if it was OK to shoot then it would be fine with me..

Does that satisfy you?
 
Alzibiff said:
We live in a world in which (in my area at least), parents are asked NOT to take photographs of children at school sports days - in fact of any children in any school activity. Now if parents are being stopped from taking pics, how do you think they would react if someone else came along with a big camera? You need to play everything by the rules. Ask the managers who has responsibility for the children, he/she will ask the parents if he/she feels it necessary to do so. (A lot of clubs have a photography waiver clause in their membership pack which gives the manager responsibility for sorting our this sort of thing). There is no point getting into arguments about your rights, public places, paedophiles - anything - you stand no chance of convincing anybody that they MUST play by YOUR rules.

If you get a "Yes" - be nice, be friendly, do the best you can and offer to share the pictures with the club. If you get a "No", say "Thank you", be polite, be nice, be friendly and maybe enquire whether you could ask again at the next game.

Alan
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Not quite sure what you mean by....... `you stand no chance of convincing anybody that they MUST play by YOUR rules` ....
in a public place there are no rules, just the law of the land which says a photographer can take photos.

In this scenario it is the manager/parents who are trying to `impose` rules. A school sports day is entirely different as it is on privare property.
 
Marac said:
I have a responsibility to the lads, they are under 15 that is why I feel it is my DUTY to be aware of who is snapping photos.. If the photographer just simply said hi I am trying out my new DSLR or whatever then that is cool with me. If he started getting mouthy and stropy then I would call the police, simple. I would not be aggressive to them so would not expect it back, it really depends on reaction.

The park is a public place I agree and he is in his rights to take photos I agree, after all, I am a tog myself. but I think it is manners (even if the tog is just passing through with his new DSLR or walking the dog) to actually ASK if it is OK to take photos...

You know? MANNERS, do we remember to uphold some kind of respect.

I also stated if the guy/girl ASKED if it was OK to shoot then it would be fine with me..

Does that satisfy you?
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nope... you seem to go on a lot about his possible attitude.. surely he wouldnt have one if you dont go up to him and ask him... i still dont understand this duty to the players.. what duty is it that makes you want to approach a photogrpaher to ask him what he is doing.. what possible harm could he be doing to the players?

sorry but yours is exactly the attitude that is making life a misery for photogrpahers.. why not just leave him alone?

if you read the thread your replying to you will see i already advocate that contact should be made prior to the game and that good manners should be used at all times even if you gte knowcked back... i just dont understand this duty to the players bit ?
 
KIPAX said:
nope... you seem to go on a lot about his possible attitude.. surely he wouldnt have one if you dont go up to him and ask him... i still dont understand this duty to the players.. what duty is it that makes you want to approach a photogrpaher to ask him what he is doing.. what possible harm could he be doing to the players?

sorry but yours is exactly the attitude that is making life a misery for photogrpahers.. why not just leave him alone?

if you read the thread your replying to you will see i already advocate that contact should be made prior to the game and that good manners should be used at all times even if you gte knowcked back... i just dont understand this duty to the players bit ?
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Have to agree, may make you feel important to be asked, but as you will have to accept any reasonable answer given, what`s the point in asking.
 
Responsibility is the word maybe I SHOULD of used.
My attitude is not bad at all my friend.

Do not tell me that my attitude is causing a misery to photographers as you know nothing about me, my area, or my team.

We seem to share similar veiws so why you decided to climb on my back about it I have no idea. Maybe my use of the wrong word.

Regardless, If a total stranger turned up and started shooting pics without asking, I would approach him and ask him nicely why he was shooting the game. Some parents do not want 'some guy' taking pictures of their children, when their children are placed in my care (training and matches) I feel I have a responsibility to them.

If you think that is out of order then you are the problem my friend, not me.

I would not go over to the tog and start shouting at him/her demanding they show me photos they took etc etc.

Anyway.. I'm done with this.
 
Shutterbox said:
Have to agree, may make you feel important to be asked, but as you will just accept any reasonable answer given, what`s the point in asking.
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Does not make me feel important at all.. it is manners to ask if it would be ok to take photos. We need more manners in this country instead of moaning and grumbling every chance we get.
 
Marac said:
Does not make me feel important at all.. it is manners to ask if it would be ok to take photos. We need more manners in this country instead of moaning and grumbling every chance we get.
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Agreed.

So next time i am having a quite afternoon in the park taking photos across the football field and a noisy bunch of oiks turn up wanting to play football on the field they will ask if I mind them disturbing my tranquility, I don`t think so.
 
Marac said:
We seem to share similar veiws so why you decided to climb on my back about it I have no idea. .
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you told me you had a responsability as the manager to ask the photogrpaher what he was doing.. I disagree.. so i ask you what you think the responsibility or whatever word you want to use is... I really truly honestly dont get it... Why do you need to ask?

you seem unable to answer and have gone off in a huff... shame because i really did want to know the answer ..
 
You are missing a point here.

We have an allocated pitch, it is not just a 'kick around' it's a proper league with proper results and not just a bunch of 'oiks' as you say, the youth football I coach is at a serious level and the pitch, goals, nets etc are allocated to us. Not private but council allocation.

you are welcome to your tranquility it's a big park.
Can you not see my point here?

Anyway, seriously, I'm done with this thread now, you do it your way, I will do it my way.

Manners goes a long way.

Try to remember in your replies that my team are registered, we play in a youth league that is run by the FA and we have a responsibility to our lads, that is all.

The original idea of asking first, even setting up prior to the game that you will be there is absolutely fine.. I would like to think that if I was looking after your lad in a football team you would WANT me to be aware of who was taking photos of them..

That is the last word from me on the subject.
 
KIPAX said:
you told me you had a responsability as the manager to ask the photogrpaher what he was doing.. I disagree.. so i ask you what you think the responsibility or whatever word you want to use is... I really truly honestly dont get it... Why do you need to ask?

you seem unable to answer and have gone off in a huff... shame because i really did want to know the answer ..
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I answered it, and im not in a huff.

It is a simple question of MANNERS. manner as a human being to respect the fellow human... IF the person is going to take a photo of your child and just stands there taking shot after shot of your child them wanders off without a word, would that not bother you at all?

If I want to take a photo of someone EVEN AT A WEDDING, I ask "excuse me, do you mind if I take your photograph"

That is manners my friend.
I have manners.
 
Marac said:
You are missing a point here.

We have an allocated pitch, it is not just a 'kick around' it's a proper league with proper results and not just a bunch of 'oiks' as you say, the youth football I coach is at a serious level and the pitch, goals, nets etc are allocated to us. Not private but council allocation.

you are welcome to your tranquility it's a big park.
Can you not see my point here?

Anyway, seriously, I'm done with this thread now, you do it your way, I will do it my way.

Manners goes a long way.

Try to remember in your replies that my team are registered, we play in a youth league that is run by the FA and we have a responsibility to our lads, that is all.

The original idea of asking first, even setting up prior to the game that you will be there is absolutely fine.. I would like to think that if I was looking after your lad in a football team you would WANT me to be aware of who was taking photos of them..

That is the last word from me on the subject.
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Sorry but I think it is you who is missing the point. The point is you have no right to ask, it`s a public place and for the moment a photographer does not need yours or anyones permission to take photos.

And as i am sure you would agree, anyone who is up to no good is not going to admit that to you or anyone else, so all you can do is accept the answer they give and walk away, so you have achieved nothing.
 
Shutterbox said:
Sorry but I think it is you who is missing the point. The point is you have no right to ask, it`s a public place and for the moment a photographer does not need yours or anyones permission to take photos.

And as i am sure you would agree, anyone who is up to no good is not going to admit that to you or anyone else, so all you can do is accept the answer they give and walk away, so you have achieved nothing.
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The point is MANNERS that is all
goodbye
 
Marac said:
Manners goes a long way.
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I agree.. you ahve yet to answer why you think you should be asking the photogrpaher what he is doing.. thats my only query to your posts...
 
Marac said:
The point is MANNERS that is all
goodbye
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OK, I am catching up now, so your comments are nothing to do with this thread at all, you just believe that a photographer should always ask permission of everyone that appears in their photos because it is bad manners not to.

Maybe you should start a new thread in that case, might make for an interesting discussion.

Of course, it is also good manners to not bother people going about their lawful business.
 
OK, Im the bad guy, so sorry to spoil your day and the rights of my fellow photographers.

I don't get it but I will leave this alone now.

My apologies to all I offended
 
Marac you have not offended me.:)

If I were to turn up at your game 10 mins before kick off and asked you if It was ok to photograph the game to improve my skills as football photography is something I am looking to get into, would you be ok with that.

I understand that contacting the coach before the day of the game is better but it's not always feasible. Believe me finding contact details for local junior teams can be very difficult.

Phil
 
Marac said:
My apologies to all I offended
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What makes you think you offended anyone? being questioned about somehting you post isnt people being offended.. stop being a drama queen :)
 
If a P**** slipped through the net and was given a job working with your kids would you still think a CRB check was worthless?




Chiggs said:
It’s down to sad individuals Philip. A CRB check is worthless; the buffoon probably doesn’t even know what one looks like. CRB checks are for people who work with or supervise children and venerable people. I am a retired fire officer and I had CRB and (Home Office -
P2) checks years ago, as we did school visits and property visits and advisories to venerable people. (Old frail learning needs) etc.
From that day I was never asked again I could have been given the all clear on Monday morning and offended on the Tuesday but I have my CRB check that proves beyond doubt I am not a threat. No! It proves on or before that date I had nothing registered against me.
Some idiot has heard down the pub the term CRB and now feels he is well informed.
Best advice I can give you is don’t bother it is highly unlikely you can get a CRB on yourself as it’s normally employers who have to prove why they need the said information. I.e. prove that they, as well as you, meet the criteria to warrant such a check. Not just anyone can apply.
It’s a case of guilty until you can prove yourself innocent. Don’t fall for it. You probably did right in walking away. In my eyes you’re the better person.
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Incidentally - I can GUARANTEE that the managers of the football teams will be CRB checked.



redmonkee said:
This morning I made my way to the local park where two junior teams were just about to kick off.

Having had my new 7D and 300 f/4 for two weeks and not had time to use them I figured this would be a great chance to try my hand at sports photography.

Rather than just start shooting I thought i'd better get permission from the two coaches. Anyway having asked the Away team manager if he minded me taking a few shots of the game he promptly asked me who I was shooting for.

I replied that I was just trying out my new lens and that I wanted to get into shooting football. He then told me that a few guys have come down without even asking for permission and had their camera taken away.

He said that in order to be able to shoot junior football I would need to get a CRB check and preferably one linked with the F.A.

Do any of you know how I'd go about getting one of these?

Cheers

Phil
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Sophotogenic said:
Incidentally - I can GUARANTEE that the managers of the football teams will be CRB checked.
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I have no doubt they will be CRB checked as this is the law for anyone in sole charge of children.

The point is that on the FA website they DO NOT CRB check photographers as they are not deemed in sole care of children and therefore do not require a CRB.

My problem will be if I go to a game held on a public park and photograph a game and someone asks me to show a CRB, it will be difficult to explain why I don't have one.
 
redmonkee said:
My problem will be if I go to a game held on a public park and photograph a game and someone asks me to show a CRB, it will be difficult to explain why I don't have one.
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You ahve no way around that.. this is exactly what I asked the FA..
 
KIPAX said:
You ahve no way around that.. this is exactly what I asked the FA..
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Do you think it would be a good idea If I print some business cards off and also print the bit on the FA website about their policy regarding photographers and CRB checking.

This would show I have at least looked into CRB and also give them my name and contact details, therefore showing I have nothing to hide so to speak.
 
Sophotogenic said:
If a P**** slipped through the net and was given a job working with your kids would you still think a CRB check was worthless?
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it wouldnt surprise me if there were paedos out there that had valid CRB checks. its not a guarantee that anyone that is CRB checked is "safe", only that the person has never been in trouble for anything worth flagging.
 
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