shooting for free

[Sparkles33]

I make more money from Free Portrait Shoots than ones I charge for

Sounds daft doesn't it - but it works



DD

Openly admit that if I ever went pro/semi-pro I'd most likely shoot for free then charge for prints. ATM if I shoot for free, I usually just upload the pics to somewhere like photobox or snapfish for whoever I've shot them for and ask them to tell me which ones they liked.

 

[geminip]

I have been asked to take photos for the evening at a christmas function for up to 110 people. The venue is 45 miles away, they want me there from 6pm till 1am, and to print photos onsite to sell to guests. The photographer last year charged £8 per print. However they are not offering a fee for my services for the evening.

 

[GSDlover4ever]

personally I think that shooting for free can be a great advantage sometimes - for instance if you are just starting out and you decided to charge even thought you have little experience - I think it could come back and bite you in the butt - so to speak!
You could charge the client for the images - but the might not be very good, it could have a bad name against you as well.


Also to reference to other more experienced photographers being ******ed off with other less experienced togs "stealing their clients" especially if they are shooting for free or cheap - sadly overall that is reality. This photography business is a dog eat dog world - we are all "steeling each other’s clients"

It doesn't matter if you charge a fortune or shoot for free - it’s still the same.

The majority of the stuff I have taken is either for charities or for personal pleasure.
I have done two weddings for basically nothing!

 

[mrtoad]

I have been asked to take photos for the evening at a christmas function for up to 110 people. The venue is 45 miles away, they want me there from 6pm till 1am, and to print photos onsite to sell to guests. The photographer last year charged £8 per print. However they are not offering a fee for my services for the evening.

:shake::shake:

expenses at least...free doesnt mean you go to the bank for an o/d

 

[swordjo]

I'm not too sure why Pro's would be worried about Am's doing free work, you have got to think about the person they are shooting for. If they wanted a Pro they would have paid for one. The fact is, 'clients' who get the work done for free would never pay for a Pro anyway or would want it done very very cheaply. Possibly not worth the Pro's time or effot for the lack of reward.

 

[mrtoad]

I'm not too sure why Pro's would be worried about Am's doing free work, you have got to think about the person they are shooting for. If they wanted a Pro they would have paid for one. The fact is, 'clients' who get the work done for free would never pay for a Pro anyway or would want it done very very cheaply. Possibly not worth the Pro's time or effot for the lack of reward.

would a corporation be able to pay an amateur if they werent set up as a pro with the correct business account etc

 

[itsdavedotnet]

I have been asked to take photos for the evening at a christmas function for up to 110 people. The venue is 45 miles away, they want me there from 6pm till 1am, and to print photos onsite to sell to guests. The photographer last year charged £8 per print. However they are not offering a fee for my services for the evening.

you should charge £8 a print too then, seeemples! or 10, inflation and whatnot....

the photog last year might even have been working on the same basis, though might have asked for a deposit that was repayed after a certain number of orders.

 

[geminip]

I agree Mrcrow but no expenses either. I was recommended through a friend of a friend. I have not been doing this for long but am finding that a lot of people expect something for nothing. Job Declined.

 

[geminip]

I was going to charge £10 per print. They used a large events/functions company last year who did not charge a fee. Just for prints sold on the night. It could work or I could travel for 6 hours, spend 8+hrs at event and not sell many.

 

[mrtoad]

I agree Mrcrow but no expenses either. I was recommended through a friend of a friend. I have not been doing this for long but am finding that a lot of people expect something for nothing. Job Declined.

most 'fair do' people would pay your ex's and made sure you got fed and watered with a little thank you prezzie at the end for your missus or kiddies

sounds a mean crowd...never mind the cheek...which is pretty awful cheek

no deal, mcbeal

 

[mrtoad]

I was going to charge £10 per print. They used a large events/functions company last year who did not charge a fee. Just for prints sold on the night. It could work or I could travel for 6 hours, spend 8+hrs at event and not sell many.

i used to do the holiday camps...from 8-2am..no fee just paid on prints bought at the kiosk next day...and you couldnt really know if the company doing the printing kept accurate records
most i could squeeze out of it was a free pint at the end and some cassettes of 100asa pukey film

 

[MartynK]

would a corporation be able to pay an amateur if they werent set up as a pro with the correct business account etc

Can't think of any reason why not, providing you give them an invoice. This doesn't normally have to be in any particular format, so long as you show all the details. I would include a reference number and your terms of payment - most companies work on 30 days, but you can go for 7 or 14 if you like. They'll just ignore it if they insist on 30! You can buy boilerplate invoices from stationers, download one or just draw it up yourself.

I've done lots of consultancy work for large companies and law firms etc, and none of them have ever had a problem paying the fee to the account I stipulated on the invoice (business or personal).

 

[dazzajl]

I can see why Pro's would get pretty annoyed with people giving away work for free, and i really don't blame them.

To be quite brutal, if your a snapper that sees him/herself in the market with people that shoot for free and you don't feel like you have more to offer.....

Get another job.

 

[geminip]

It is cheeky especially as the function is being held at a top london hotel and costing a small fortune :nono:

 

[MadMacro]

This is a fair comment up to a point but how many of us can say we haven't done someone out of their potential earnings at some stage? Who hasn't helped mates fix their car, do a spot of landscaping to their gardens or lent a hand decoration their hall? This has an impact on all trades so why would photography be any different?

That's it exactly. All trades suffer from 'hobblers' who'll do it for less/nothing. It's a fact of life, I don't let it bother me when someone undercuts me in my work (carpenter/joiner/wood butcher) as I understand that not all customers see any value in my 35 years experience and won't pay for it, nothing I can do about it so why fret? :bang:

 

[DiddyDave]

To be quite brutal, if your a snapper that sees him/herself in the market with people that shoot for free and you don't feel like you have more to offer.....

Get another job.

Thanks for that measure of support Dazz

In my locality -

£75 sitting fee = no interest at all
£50 sitting fee and some come in, most phone calls end abruptly at the price
£25 special offer gets no more interest than £50 does
FREE = quite a few come along for that

Then...

£50 paying people often buy no prints at all, just happy to watch a dvd of images
£25 special offer are the same again
FREE = average a little over £100 spend

And if you think I'm just 'daft' - Barnsley's largest studio (a huge 2 storey building, viewing room, studio and gallery on a main town centre high street hence massive overheads) charges either £25 with a free framed 7x5" print; or does a free sitting from time to time

They are tight arses round here

I mean careful with their money

DD

 

[dazzajl]

Thanks for that measure of support Dazz

Any time old bean.

I do forget that I think in terms of the commercial world and you're all talking mostly talking portraiture.

Somehow, I seriously doubt you ever feel too threatened by folks who give away prints.

 

[DiddyDave]

Any time old bean.

I do forget that I think in terms of the commercial world and you're all talking mostly talking portraiture.

Somehow, I seriously doubt you ever feel too threatened by folks who give away prints.

No worries mate

Actually, I'd love all my competitors to give away prints, huge ones, framed preferably and canvasses & acrylics too They'd all go out of business far faster that way

BTW - two studios have packed up hereabouts in the last year and both had been around for many years

DD

 

[p1tse]

i've been to weddings, parties, days out and have been asked for a copy of the photo's i have done in the past from friends and family, all for free.

i just enjoy taking my camera to these events and shoot whenever i feel like it, and capture some odd good shots (some i wish someone else could/would do of me and the family)

don't think i'll ever get into the point when someone will give me some form of cash for my photo's, but maybe a drink offer for the collection i do.

 

[Rovers_Andy]

My experience is probably very different to most due to the area of photography i'm trying to break into.

Working for free, for me it was worth it as it has enabled me to train myself up and get to a standard where i have now received my first paid commission.

What i would say is that if your going to do this you need to be very clear from the outset about what you are prepared to do and for how long. You need to also make sure that your going to get something worthwhile out of the deal that you can use to further your career in photography.


just my £0.02 worth

Andy

 

[geminip]

I take my camera to most places with friends and family and of course I give them prints afterwards for nothing. Thing is its assumed that I will be there with my camera so noone else bothers!

 

[Rudesing]

Thanks for that measure of support Dazz

In my locality -

£75 sitting fee = no interest at all
£50 sitting fee and some come in, most phone calls end abruptly at the price
£25 special offer gets no more interest than £50 does
FREE = quite a few come along for that

Then...

£50 paying people often buy no prints at all, just happy to watch a dvd of images
£25 special offer are the same again
FREE = average a little over £100 spend

DD

That's really interesting. For the studio work that I do (which is on a much smaller scale - sticking up studio in my spare bedroom and with a small customer base all on WOM). I am offering a £60 package (which they get too much for, but I'll deal with that soon) and the average spend is £100. Clients are based in Essex / Herfordshire / East-North London mostly.

 

[mrtoad]

Can't think of any reason why not, providing you give them an invoice. This doesn't normally have to be in any particular format, so long as you show all the details. I would include a reference number and your terms of payment - most companies work on 30 days, but you can go for 7 or 14 if you like. They'll just ignore it if they insist on 30! You can buy boilerplate invoices from stationers, download one or just draw it up yourself.

I've done lots of consultancy work for large companies and law firms etc, and none of them have ever had a problem paying the fee to the account I stipulated on the invoice (business or personal).

point taken...but you werent an amateur? did you have a business address and tax reference
the fees a firm pays need to be audited and if your boilerplate stands up to scrutiny..fine..
i worked through agencies...engineering..and the clients insisted the operatives ran limited companies just for those auditing reasons

nice work if you can get it...cheers

 

[MartynK]

point taken...but you werent an amateur? did you have a business address and tax reference
the fees a firm pays need to be audited and if your boilerplate stands up to scrutiny..fine..
i worked through agencies...engineering..and the clients insisted the operatives ran limited companies just for those auditing reasons

nice work if you can get it...cheers

No, I provide a professional service - although I'm not a professional in the medical, legal, accounting or engineering sense - and I have my own business in South Africa, but I work on a personal level in the UK at the moment and it's not a problem. One of my main clients is a major US corporation with a London office, and they are quite relaxed about it. You are acting as an independent contractor or service provider, and the client can stipulate that you must have certain qualifications, hold public liability insurance, and be registered as a company etc if they want to, but it's not mandatory in this context.

I fully agree that the client has accounting and auditing obligations, but it's quite easy to comply with their requirements. Just ask them what details have to appear on the invoice, and use your personal tax number if necessary. The only thing that is completely out of order is charging VAT if you're not registered for it! I've known a few people who did this, and got into serious trouble.

 

[mrtoad]

No, I provide a professional service - although I'm not a professional in the medical, legal, accounting or engineering sense - and I have my own business in South Africa, but I work on a personal level in the UK at the moment and it's not a problem. One of my main clients is a major US corporation with a London office, and they are quite relaxed about it. You are acting as an independent contractor or service provider, and the client can stipulate that you must have certain qualifications, hold public liability insurance, and be registered as a company etc if they want to, but it's not mandatory in this context.

I fully agree that the client has accounting and auditing obligations, but it's quite easy to comply with their requirements. Just ask them what details have to appear on the invoice, and use your personal tax number if necessary. The only thing that is completely out of order is charging VAT if you're not registered for it! I've known a few people who did this, and got into serious trouble.

i know..i just registered at the beginning...1976...the good old days and played it straight...everything came up roses....the vat inspectors were great and helpful...

 

[MartynK]

[/B]

i know..i just registered at the beginning...1976...the good old days and played it straight...everything came up roses....the vat inspectors were great and helpful...

I'm not registered in the UK because I haven't been back here for very long, and I'm going to be well under the threshold. I'll review my position once I know if I'm going to stay here, but I don't think I want to.

A friend of mine phoned me a couple of years ago, sounding quite puzzled. She was charging customers/clients VAT and most of them just paid, then one asked for her VAT registration number. She told him it was 14% (this was in SA), and couldn't understand his reaction! Could I shed any light? Oh well, I explained the process to her and she was quite taken aback. She paid VAT in shops, and thought it was just something you just had to charge if you sold anything through a business transaction................and was so convincing that I almost believed her.

 

[Ste Manns]

[/B]

i know..i just registered at the beginning...1976...the good old days and played it straight...everything came up roses....the vat inspectors were great and helpful...

That has been my experience in the past. I have been involved in a number of small businesses over the years (other peoples, I helped out) and I have always advised that with regards to tax of any sort, keep good records and keep everything above board and the tax man will be your friend. Try to fiddle it, even in a small way, and it will eventually be found out and then you've marked your card and that's not good!

I actually worked once in the Inland Revenue (just as a filing clerk when I was 17!) and I saw how different companies were treated, and it was always the fiddlers who were at the top of the pile being scrutinised heavily.

Find out what is expected of you, ask them for help if necessary, and the rules will be explained clearly, they will help you to do things properly and life will be rosy. It's really not worth doing it any other way.

 

[mrtoad]

I'm not registered in the UK because I haven't been back here for very long, and I'm going to be well under the threshold. I'll review my position once I know if I'm going to stay here, but I don't think I want to.

A friend of mine phoned me a couple of years ago, sounding quite puzzled. She was charging customers/clients VAT and most of them just paid, then one asked for her VAT registration number. She told him it was 14% (this was in SA), and couldn't understand his reaction! Could I shed any light? Oh well, I explained the process to her and she was quite taken aback. She paid VAT in shops, and thought it was just something you just had to charge if you sold anything through a business transaction................and was so convincing that I almost believed her.

no one would ever believe it:bonk:
stranger than fiction

 

[coldpenguin]

I agree Mrcrow but no expenses either. I was recommended through a friend of a friend. I have not been doing this for long but am finding that a lot of people expect something for nothing. Job Declined.

I hope you actually asked them out loud if they would pay travel expenses.
To me, what you have said is where I would expect most negotiations to start.

 

[seriousrikk]

I shoot for free.

However I shoot for free if it is something I want to shoot. If I am asked to shoot something then I will expect something in return.

When I did dog photography a lot I started off charging £50 per shoot and including a small print package - rarely got many extra orders. Then I did a couple of freebies and I found the same as DiddyDave - people would pay far more than the £50 on prints.

I do however find that now I shoot for free as a non professional individual I am far more relaxed about it. I choose my clients, I choose my location and I enjoy my shoot.

 

[mrtoad]

I hope you actually asked them out loud if they would pay travel expenses.
To me, what you have said is where I would expect most negotiations to start.

fair comment...limp wrist or iron hand in the silk glove

time and lime makes the world go round

 

[MartynK]

Once you start shooting for money, even if it's only expenses, the dynamics change and it becomes a business relationship. Couple of things I've learned, for what they're worth:

Don't agree to reduce your fee because the client thinks it's too expensive, unless they ask you to quote again for a revised, and reduced, scope. You'll just get a reputation for being "soft" and/or trying to overcharge in the first place to see if you can get away with it. I suppose there can be exceptions, but it's thin ice and I'd advise against it.

Don't be shy about asking for a deposit, particularly if you don't know the client, and you're going to incur expenses (petrol?) up front. It's perfectly reasonable, and gives you some security. I won't carry out an assignment if a new client refuses to pay a deposit to show good faith.

It up to the individual. By all means shoot free, if that's what you want to do, and possibly generate some income from selling prints, but if you want to make money out of this, or anything else, I'd strongly recommend adopting basic business practices.

 

[mrtoad]

Once you start shooting for money, even if it's only expenses, the dynamics change and it becomes a business relationship. Couple of things I've learned, for what they're worth:

Don't agree to reduce your fee because the client thinks it's too expensive, unless they ask you to quote again for a revised, and reduced, scope. You'll just get a reputation for being "soft" and/or trying to overcharge in the first place to see if you can get away with it. I suppose there can be exceptions, but it's thin ice and I'd advise against it.

Don't be shy about asking for a deposit, particularly if you don't know the client, and you're going to incur expenses (petrol?) up front. It's perfectly reasonable, and gives you some security. I won't carry out an assignment if a new client refuses to pay a deposit to show good faith.

It up to the individual. By all means shoot free, if that's what you want to do, and possibly generate some income from selling prints, but if you want to make money out of this, or anything else, I'd strongly recommend adopting basic business practices.

and then you wont have that i wished i did feeling and then start blaming yourself or the other party...circular thinking

i would rather not have the feeling of being used..rather being upfront and saying it isnt worth it unless i get some remuneration
a refusal lets you spend the day on your own doing your own thing