shooting for free

Sparkles33

Sparkles33

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We're forever reading posts saying "don't shoot for free" but, I'm fairly sure that many amatures do.

So, who do you shoot for free for? Friends? Family?

TBH, I've never been paid for any shoots that I've done. I've shot for friends and family (and yes, I do get taken advantage of) however, I'm not confident that I'd be able to deliver the images that they expect every time, so therefore I think it would be wrong of me to charge - even a small amount.

Am I right in thinking that other amatures are the same - that you shoot for free, for experience and because it's a "everyone's happy" senario (ie, you get to shoot and they get some images) and occasionally to keep the peace? (and the "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" theory - that if you shoot this time for them, they'll model for you another time).

I can understand pros charging mates rates, that's different as it's their trade. If a friend of a friend asked, then I can understand charging, but I'm mostly talking about those just starting to learn and their nearest and dearest.
 
I have done several parties and never officially charged. When asked what i charge, I inform them that all contributions are greatfully received.

My first was a 18th local to me and came about after a chat with a customer who had a really ornate fountain in her garden that i wanted to photograph, which reminds me i still haven't.

That lead to anther two parties. Do i feel i've been exploited, NO not at all, i do this for a hobby, yes the equipment is expensive, but i didn't start it not knowing that. On the other hand, the experience from shooting at such events i can't buy and thus i think it's a win win situation for all concearned, they get cheap photos and i gain a little more experience.

I don't rely on photography as a income, my day job provides me with what i need and thus allows me to keep photography as a hobby. That said, would i like in time to become a P/T photgrapher, for sure, beats cleaning windows, though i do it enjoy that as well.

Rob.
 
Never shot any parties etc but if a family or close friend asked, and I felt confident I could do what they wanted I would def do it for free, gives me a lot of experience and enjoyment, get use out of all my equipment and use it in a 'real' situation and learn from it :-)
 
There is a time and a place for everything and even pro's will shoot for free if the circumstances are right.

I've shot a fellow pro's christening for free because it's good relationship building and one day he may be able to help me out too. I'll shoot my local cafe's food shots (their coffee and walnut cake is a work of art!) and in return I can have some space to advertise/show my wares.

I shot a model/wedding dress shoot at my local town hall for free. The venue/models and dress designer all got the images for free but guess who will be wanting to shoot more at the town hall :) so it's mutually beneficial and the cheapest advertising I will get is them using my images in their own promotions :)

And the tax man does not get to run away with nearly a fifth of what I would have to spend on advertising :)

If there is enough benefit in doing it, then it's worth doing it :)
 
I think there must be a time when you suddenly realise you're good enough and have a big enough portfolio to stop snapping for free! Although I'm sure even the pros do favours for friends! (Else they wouldn't make any)
 
I have done my BIL's wedding (they had two ceremonies as different religions and only had a pro at the first), and am going to take stills for a play my SIL is doing - she's a sixth form teacher, and we are setting up the stills on a separate day from the performance so I can light properly.
 
are you doing photography for living?
or just your hobby?

you might think combine both are good, but only for short term. u either lose interest in photography or vice versa
 
I've not shot anything as yet, but I've been asked to have a go at a few things in the near future. I don't think I'm good enough and can guarantee to get the shots that charging for would require. If the people concerned want to offer donations... then I'll be happy.
 
Ill shoot for an exchange, for example a friend is doing me some design stuff so i shot a pub for her.

The issue with shooting for free, if many people dont understand they are doing serious damage to professionals livelyhoods.

'I work in the week and that pays my bills so i dont need to make money shooting, ill do jobs for fun' - Ok so how about if a person wanted to do your job for a bit of fun as they allready had businesses that run themselves and gave them an income, you wouldnt be happy when your boss tells you that your services are no longer needed because someone has offered to do it unpaid.

Think about it and how one persons behaviour can actually be quite selfish and effect hundreds of others.

Shooting for friends if it is just for a friend as say a bit of fun can be ok, but when amateurs start shooting say commercial events 'for fun' then you have to understand why people get ****ed off.
 
I've only been asked to do a couple of jobs for friends. More particularly, by one friend - just to add a little scariness into the mix, he's an ex-pro 'togger himself - but as the jobs he wanted shooting required him to be in-shot it required someone to do the job for him. First time I did it thinking it would be good experience and something new for my skills-bank. When I called in to show him proofs of the shoot, we looked through the shots and he expressed himself to be happy with the job. He then handed me an envelope and said "I've phoned around a couple of the local photographers and got a current day-rate - I've added a bit for the post-processing, I hope that'll be okay? - I didn't want to get involved with asking how much from a mate... Can we discuss how much you want for licencing the shots - i'll need 'em for website, PR stuff and maybe advertising handouts"

So when i'd picked myself up off the floor... :lol:

Now I know it's hardly typical, and i'll probably never get another client as good as that, but it was worth the worry of shooting for a ex-pro, in that at least he understood the value of the images and of the work behind them! Even better, we've done a couple more shoots since then, all on the same basis.
 
MagicMynx said:
We're forever reading posts saying "don't shoot for free" but, I'm fairly sure that many amatures do.

So, who do you shoot for free for? Friends? Family?

TBH, I've never been paid for any shoots that I've done. I've shot for friends and family (and yes, I do get taken advantage of) however, I'm not confident that I'd be able to deliver the images that they expect every time, so therefore I think it would be wrong of me to charge - even a small amount.

Am I right in thinking that other amatures are the same - that you shoot for free, for experience and because it's a "everyone's happy" senario (ie, you get to shoot and they get some images) and occasionally to keep the peace? (and the "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" theory - that if you shoot this time for them, they'll model for you another time).

I can understand pros charging mates rates, that's different as it's their trade. If a friend of a friend asked, then I can understand charging, but I'm mostly talking about those just starting to learn and their nearest and dearest.
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you need to have a way of reconciling your time and expenses..materials and equipment loss factors
its either altruistic, commercial...or a combination
what ever makes you feel good do
regarding who do you do for free..everyone you dont want paid by
even relatives will pay you for your efforts and a good shot of a complete stranger in a satisfactory way could be a present...because of the moment

:cool:
 
i'm a keen amature and whilst i don't charge for taking photos i do charge for prints as this goes towards the paper and ink
 
My Dad does my decorating, plumbing & repairs
My neighbour watches the kids
My friend makes me flower bouquets
My mum made my wedding dress
My uncle did my wedding photography (10 yrs ago)

I didn't pay them for this, nor would I expect to charge them for my photography. In each of these situations I could have paid a professional to do the job, but I didn't.

I completely understand that amateur togs doing stuff cheap / for free can affect pros and there is a lot of them out there doing this, but I do think it's the same for a lot of industries.

Sorry, didn't answer the question:
- I shoot for free for family and very close friends
- I charge less because I'm not as experienced as many others so therefore shouldn't be getting paid the same (and tell the client this)
- I charge what I'm happy with for the stuff I'm good at.
 
I shoot everything I do for free. It's being nice to the clients that I charge for. :D

As always, each circumstance is going to be different but as a rule, if being paid for shooting is what you want to do then it's best to stay away from free shoots whenever you can.

There is normally a way to make most free shoots into a fair exchange of some sort too.
 
Rudesing said:
My Dad does my decorating, plumbing & repairs
My neighbour watches the kids
My friend makes me flower bouquets
My mum made my wedding dress
My uncle did my wedding photography (10 yrs ago)

I didn't pay them for this, nor would I expect to charge them for my photography. In each of these situations I could have paid a professional to do the job, but I didn't.

I completely understand that amateur togs doing stuff cheap / for free can affect pros and there is a lot of them out there doing this, but I do think it's the same for a lot of industries.

....runs and ducks for cover :exit:
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a pro does a pro job..and guarantees it against all weathers..
i got british gas to do my boiler...my neighbour's nephew has a plumbing business but if the c.h. goes i want it fixed...pronto...of course i have to pay for the insurance etc
its just there are bound to be variations..we all have relationships and relatives...you lucky lady.. and its an open book
charging for something really lies within the scope of why you do the thing in the first place...for me..and i think us..photography in our hands..no matter what the class of work...and it could be classed professional...gives pleasure and satisfaction beyond payment
 
I have no issue with people doing jobs for free/very cheap. There has been and always will be that section of work, just as there has been and always will be (me included) people who will do their own decorating rather then pay somebody to do it.

There will also always be people who will pay for a professional to do their photography (or decorating) and thats the market I'm interested in, I don't believe for a second I'm losing out to people who work for very little, just because I'm no longer interested in the area of the market that is catered for here.

Hugh
 
Friends and family I do for free, the line is if somebody is making money at an event, or with the pictures (ads etc) then I'd charge.
 
We have a portraiture studio. Family, we do free stuff for. Friends, we give a discount. I have some friends whose children we use as models sometimes, and then they get the images for free.

A
 
Ok, I guess I'd better answer my own question now, lol

I've done family portraits for family, kids portraits for family, a few wedding shots (I got a friend to help me too and tbh neither were that great but good enough for what they wanted - that was a gift - they weren't going to have any photography, so that was a gift to them, inc a photobook, though in some respects I regret doing it as someone spat their dummy out.), a pretty princess photoshoot party (my 7 year old niece asked me if I'd do it for her and some of her friends) and a couple of other random little family and friends shoots....oh and some church shots for a friend who is a vicar.
 
I did a recent engagement shoot for free, it was for the daughter of the lady that got me my first wedding, without that, I would have struggled to break into the market :)

Was an early xmas present :)
 
My photography is personal, and I don't shoot for anyone else, other than occasional "snaps" for family and friends. I wouldn't shoot a wedding, formal portraits or anything like that for money or as a favour because I don't know if I have the skills, and I'm not interested in taking photographs of people anyway.

It's up to you really. A lot of pros do feel strongly about amateurs spoiling the market, but I wouldn't worry about it. It's not your problem, and it's no different from getting a friend to repair your car (or whatever) instead of taking it to the local garage. Most professions and trades are protected by law, for various reasons, but photography isn't.
 
fastworldimages said:
The issue with shooting for free, if many people dont understand they are doing serious damage to professionals livelyhoods.

'I work in the week and that pays my bills so i dont need to make money shooting, ill do jobs for fun' - Ok so how about if a person wanted to do your job for a bit of fun as they allready had businesses that run themselves and gave them an income, you wouldnt be happy when your boss tells you that your services are no longer needed because someone has offered to do it unpaid.

Think about it and how one persons behaviour can actually be quite selfish and effect hundreds of others.

Shooting for friends if it is just for a friend as say a bit of fun can be ok, but when amateurs start shooting say commercial events 'for fun' then you have to understand why people get ****ed off.
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This is a fair comment up to a point but how many of us can say we haven't done someone out of their potential earnings at some stage? Who hasn't helped mates fix their car, do a spot of landscaping to their gardens or lent a hand decoration their hall? This has an impact on all trades so why would photography be any different?
 
Everyone who takes a picture has a right to do what they want with it. There are far too many pro togs telling everyone else what they can/can't, should/shouldn't do with there pictures...

IMHO :)
 
KIPAX said:
Everyone who takes a picture has a right to do what they want with it. There are far too many pro togs telling everyone else what they can/can't, should/shouldn't do with there pictures...

IMHO :)
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Is it a very dog eat dog business to be in? Genuine question, as I have no idea.

I do my own car maintenance, and I know pro mechanics that don't have a problem with me doing so, but they are never short of work.

I'm making an assumption that there are more togs out there than are required, so fighting for business is commonplace. Would I be right? :thinking:
 
KIPAX said:
Everyone who takes a picture has a right to do what they want with it. There are far too many pro togs telling everyone else what they can/can't, should/shouldn't do with there pictures...

IMHO :)
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:clap:
 
GrittyShaker said:
I'm making an assumption that there are more togs out there than are required, so fighting for business is commonplace. Would I be right? :thinking:
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Certainly is the case in my area..sports.. cant speak for other types.. I lost count of how many photographers at preston north end ve newcastle last night (three from here/TP that i know of)... in reality the papers could ahve just used one photographers shots and everyone else lose out...

I still wouldn't presume to tell others what they can/cant or should/shouldn't do wiht there own pictures though..
 
I can see why shooting for free is good for a novice, i've been there and worn the teeshirt, however if I were you get an agreement that you are paid purly on results and charge more for the prints to cover your time ,this should keep everyone happy.
I suppose that's Dave's remark above
 
KIPAX said:
Everyone who takes a picture has a right to do what they want with it. There are far too many pro togs telling everyone else what they can/can't, should/shouldn't do with there pictures...

IMHO :)
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the question you raise is ..without the taker present can you tell who took the shot...and if it was paid for...and if so by whom and in what relationship with the taker

the amateur and professional thing is rife amongst many art and skill disciplines
"first find a buyer" is the maxim...then it becomes professional
 
DiddyDave said:
I make more money from Free Portrait Shoots than ones I charge for

Sounds daft doesn't it - but it works

:)

DD
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Makes sense, to be honest. Entice 'em in with freebies, then flog the prints, I guess.

I'm no pro, but if I offered to tog an event for a friend and asked for money, the answer would be a resounding no (or they would laugh at me). But, if I went along and got some shots for free, and they turned out to be a success, I doubt I would have any trouble shifting the prints for a few quid.

At the moment I'll be taking my camera to various family/friends' occasions, as I always have done with my P&S in the past. I guess I might start feeling differently if the friends/family start to expect it of me, or start telling me to make sure I bring the camera with me.
 
GrittyShaker said:
Makes sense, to be honest. Entice 'em in with freebies, then flog the prints, I guess.

I'm no pro, but if I offered to tog an event for a friend and asked for money, the answer would be a resounding no (or they would laugh at me). But, if I went along and got some shots for free, and they turned out to be a success, I doubt I would have any trouble shifting the prints for a few quid.

At the moment I'll be taking my camera to various family/friends' occasions, as I always have done with my P&S in the past. I guess I might start feeling differently if the friends/family start to expect it of me, or start telling me to make sure I bring the camera with me.
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That's basically how it works - the local population are so 'tight' initially that charging for a sitting, £25 even £10, just doesn't get their interest and you can't sell them anything if they don't first come in :(

When they have been in for a Freebie Shoot they have something they can see, appreciate and then want - hence they buy

What's most funny is that looking back over the years those that paid £50 or even £75 for their Shoot spent less overall on average than those tight-wads that came in for a Freebie :)

DD
 
fastworldimages said:
Ill shoot for an exchange, for example a friend is doing me some design stuff so i shot a pub for her.

The issue with shooting for free, if many people dont understand they are doing serious damage to professionals livelyhoods.

'I work in the week and that pays my bills so i dont need to make money shooting, ill do jobs for fun' - Ok so how about if a person wanted to do your job for a bit of fun as they allready had businesses that run themselves and gave them an income, you wouldnt be happy when your boss tells you that your services are no longer needed because someone has offered to do it unpaid.

Think about it and how one persons behaviour can actually be quite selfish and effect hundreds of others.

Shooting for friends if it is just for a friend as say a bit of fun can be ok, but when amateurs start shooting say commercial events 'for fun' then you have to understand why people get ****ed off.
Click to expand...

I went round to my mum's to replace her fence at the weekend (not for fun admittedly) but it took work away from a fencer.
I know people don't put fences up for fun but........
Who has a go at plumbing, building, builds a PC for a friend, fixes a car for a neighbour?, the list is endless.
Everything has a commercial aspect, why should photography be any different.
 
Bazza155 said:
I went round to my mum's to replace her fence at the weekend (not for fun admittedly) but it took work away from a fencer.
I know people don't put fences up for fun but........
Who has a go at plumbing, building, builds a PC for a friend, fixes a car for a neighbour?, the list is endless.
Everything has a commercial aspect, why should photography be any different.
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bringing us to the question...is DIY amateur
 
Amateur in my book is anyone who does not receive payment for a task. They may be as good, if not better than a Pro but.......
 
Bazza155 said:
Amateur in my book is anyone who does not receive payment for a task. They may be as good, if not better than a Pro but.......
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this is where we dont want to be unkind or to proud...
from my experience in diy there were jobs i did which could have been better and then again jobs i had to make good ..automobile ones..after close inspecition after a service...small things but really important to me

the professional cant lag or put down the load...if he..or she..does..they are being unprofessional even if paid..and have to see the job through or pay others to do so in any event they cant

i know my place

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0DUsGSMwZY
 
mrcrow said:
automobile ones..after close inspecition after a service...small things but really important to me
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It's the amateur-ish job that Honda did with my servicing (several times) that made me start doing mine myself. I don't mind paying for quality, but if I can do a better job myself, using only internet guides, and then not wash the car with a Brillo pad afterwards :shake:, then you start to question exactly what you're paying for.
 
Sometime ago, professional Photographer did a article on this very subject, though i can't recall at the moment what it said, I will dig out the magazine and refresh my fraile memory.

Rob.
 
GrittyShaker said:
It's the amateur-ish job that Honda did with my servicing (several times) that made me start doing mine myself. I don't mind paying for quality, but if I can do a better job myself, using only internet guides, and then not wash the car with a Brillo pad afterwards :shake:, then you start to question exactly what you're paying for.
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mine is vw...good car...rip off mechanical estimates and repairs...all done with correct parts...although my regularly replaced and paid for pollen filter looks absolutely ******..now i know where it is i do it myself
i dont like the car coming back with screws missing and bits hanging off underneath...or paying for guys in white shirts selling cars but not making their monthly target...suspicions arise
cheers
out with the spanners again:)
 
I like shooting for free when it suits me. I generally prefer to shoot for free than not shoot because I want money. I have a day job for money so it's all good. Not like I am giving the real pros much competition anyway and there are plenty of people who can't afford or don't want to spend on a pro.
 
I can see why Pro's would get pretty annoyed with people giving away work for free, and i really don't blame them. However there are times where you do have to try and give away images for free, to try and build a relationship with that company/person, to hopefully get some future work.

Last week I had to do this. There was a photograph that I took for my local football club (whom i take photographs for free, but thats a different story), and the club wanted this particular photo in both of the local papers. However, one of the local papers (the target (boo)) already told me that they didn't have a big enough budget to pay me for my photos (so they just use crummy stock photos) whereas the standard use my photographs most weeks now, and pay me a fair rate per photo. So in this case i thought it would be best to give the photo away free to both papers for two reasons:

A) To get the photo that the club wanted, in both papers
B) To hopefully prove to the target that my photos are worth paying for!

So who knows. I think that there are defiantly times where you have to give photographs away for free, but only if you think you can gain opportunities further down the line by doing so
 
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