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Shooting at Florida School
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kendo1
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I hope they do. A new generation of people actually wanting to change the status quo.
D
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Control! Control! Control!
It's not neccesarily taking all guns away from all owners
It's not denying all responsible americans the right to buy and shoot guns
It's making sure only responsible people get to own guns
It's making some type of guns illegal
Is a demand of being a member of a certified range/gun club so hillarious?
Is a turnover time of say a month?
A probation time of say a year as junior member before even getting to own a type one gun
Target pistol, bolt action target rifle etc
Etc
?
That's how it works in some countries e.g. Danmark (more or less)
Byker28i
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It's not the youth though is it necessarily. It's the same all over, isolated person, angry, decides to react, it's just that the easy availability of weapons, the culture towards weapons, the acceptability, makes it more deadly.
Even now, Trump is repeating the NRA line, backed by his favourable media, of crazy person, mentally deranged, we need mental laws, not gun laws. Harden the schools, why should everywhere else have armed guards yet not the children. Won't somebody think of the children!
Wayne LaPierre made the speech at CPAC and Trump repeated every point virtually verbatim.
The youth need to own this, as the next voters, to force NRA supporting legislators out, to build the momentum that enough is enough and something needs to be done, to change attitudes.
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Byker28i
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Licence the owners with law enforcement interviews. Computerised, searchable records for gun owners. If not takign away rifles, make it harder to get. It's ridiculous that most rules don't count towards private sales, gun shows, that different states have different laws.
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If you scroll down it now says 4 police did not go in, just gets worse 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43173753
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43173753
kendo1
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#armmewith is gaining popularity amongst teachers. It seems reasonable, not every teacher has the desire, ability or character to use a gun.
I wonder how long it will be until the NRA attacks these teachers for not 'wanting' to protect their pupils.
I wonder how long it will be until the NRA attacks these teachers for not 'wanting' to protect their pupils.
Byker28i
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If you scroll down it now says 4 police did not go in, just gets worse
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43173753
In the Vegas shooting it took a full hour for a fully armed Swat team to storm the shooters hotel room, who had shot himself 50 mins earlier...
We haven't their training, what they were told, the confusion, the right/wrong decisions taken. In the case of the school guard, we don't know his side of the story. We do know the school CCTV operator was looking at a delayed feed and giving wrong information to the police, what was happening and where, adding to the confusion.
For Cadet Bone Spurs to suggest otherwise, to call the school guard a coward, is just hypocracy of the highest.
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ianp5a
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If armed and trained professionals are afraid to tackle a shooter, it helps you realise the fear involved when choosing to put your own life at risk. And now some are suggesting that teachers should be armed and tackle any shooters. Possibly shooting a school kid.If you scroll down it now says 4 police did not go in, just gets worse
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43173753
What a messed up country.
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Here is one of the reports into the Vegas shooting.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-l...es-questions-on-police-response-idUKKBN1CF2ZL
As in the school shooting, there was one shooter, yet a fully armed SWAT team didn't enter his room until he had shot himself. The reason given, was that they have to stop and assess each situation because in the words of a security expert - “One of the biggest priorities is not to lose the life of a police officer,” Shepherd said by telephone. “So in those six minutes, it is highly unlikely police would have stormed that room.”
So, the local sherrif and the draft dodging POTUS obviously think differently about this situation.
Phil V
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Sorry Steven.
Think a second, what exactly is wrong with taking guns away from the kids?
You don’t let the kids have alcohol or porn or gambling till they’re old enough to understand. You don’t let them drive till they’ve old enough and have proven they’re competent.
f*** sticks! These are guns! They’re designed to kill people and you think unregulated access is less dangerous than unregulated access to a f*****g beer?
Rant over, but it’s time you got a grown up attitude! Porns fun too, but we don’t let 13 year olds get it.
The idea that guns are fun so they should be freely available is just plain stupid. Beers fun, driving is fun, gambling is fun, sex is fun! But you can manage to see that they should be kept away from kids.
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kendo1
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Err...
Edit
I was in two minds about posting this in this particular thread. I'm not posting it to trivialise the thread, just pointing out a difference in culture and outlook, (and stupidity) though it helps that it is an AR 15.
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That’s just masquerading the problem. Gun related deaths and mass shootings are a real problem in the US. Saying that it’s significantly better than in Honduras is just deflecting away from addressing the issue. In the same way that the direct question to a politician in the US asking if they will ban guns went off at a tangent discussing is the AR15 was high powered or not.
Removing access to guns will in all likelihood mean the problem gets worse before it gets better because the last people to be disarmed are those more likely to commit the atrocities but if in 20 years there are only 2% and descending of the number of these shootings that would be a success. Maybe not for those who have lost loved ones. Things like this are always tough to start addressing but it’s the sign of a good leader. Unfortunealty don’t hold your breath under Trump.
Byker28i
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Wayne LaPierr's speech at C-Span claimed that guns are granted as a right by God.
LET'S BE CLEAR, WE ARE NEVER TALKING ABOUT AN ARMED RESISTANCE AGAINST THE SOCIALIST CORRUPTION OF OUR GOVERNMENT. WE ARE ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT A RESISTANCE ARMED WITH THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION AND THE BILL OF RIGHTS IN OUR COUNTRY. [APPLAUSE] [CHEERS] THE GENIUS OF THOSE DOCUMENTS, THE BRILLIANCE OF AMERICA, OF OUR COUNTRY ITSELF, IS ALL OF OUR FREEDOMS ARE FOR EVERY SINGLE CITIZEN. AND THERE IS NO GREATER PERSONAL , INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM THAN THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, THE RIGHT TO PROTECT YOURSELF, AND THE RIGHT TO SURVIVE. [APPLAUSE] IT IS NOT BESTOWED BY MAN, BUT GRANTED BY GOD TO ALL AMERICANS AS OUR AMERICAN BIRTHRIGHT.
Full speech here: https://www.c-span.org/video/?44147...on-conference-wayne-lapierre-remarks&start=38
LET'S BE CLEAR, WE ARE NEVER TALKING ABOUT AN ARMED RESISTANCE AGAINST THE SOCIALIST CORRUPTION OF OUR GOVERNMENT. WE ARE ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT A RESISTANCE ARMED WITH THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION AND THE BILL OF RIGHTS IN OUR COUNTRY. [APPLAUSE] [CHEERS] THE GENIUS OF THOSE DOCUMENTS, THE BRILLIANCE OF AMERICA, OF OUR COUNTRY ITSELF, IS ALL OF OUR FREEDOMS ARE FOR EVERY SINGLE CITIZEN. AND THERE IS NO GREATER PERSONAL , INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM THAN THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, THE RIGHT TO PROTECT YOURSELF, AND THE RIGHT TO SURVIVE. [APPLAUSE] IT IS NOT BESTOWED BY MAN, BUT GRANTED BY GOD TO ALL AMERICANS AS OUR AMERICAN BIRTHRIGHT.
Full speech here: https://www.c-span.org/video/?44147...on-conference-wayne-lapierre-remarks&start=38
So that reads that the freedom is more important than the lives of US citizens.
sk66
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I can't respond to all, but this seems to cover it...
Because the issue isn't really the guns or even age so much... IMO, it's whatever is making such kind of action "the best choice" to these people.
Yes, there are some types of guns that no-one has any real "need" for and which should be more closely regulated.... i.e. if you want to own a high powered assault type weapon which really should only be fired in certain range type environments, then the guns stay there under proper security when not in use. etc, etc, But a basic semi-auto?
I got my first semi-auto rifle when I was 14 (?) as a birthday gift... it was a .22 for small game hunting. I had to get proper training and it was kept stored away out of my control when not hunting/under supervision. By 16 I had also inherited my Grandfather's 30-30 deer rifle and a 16 gauge shotgun along with appropriate supervision/training, but by this time I could access the guns and go hunting on my own. At 18 I joined the Army and received extensive training on a variety of weapons and explosives, along with additional training/qualifications over the years. And I have acquired/inherited other weapons as well, although they are almost never taken out of locked storage any more. As an adult I acquired a couple of pistols and I have a concealed carry permit (not that I usually carry, and there aren't many instances I would ever use a weapon against another person).
As a youth all of the training/emphasis was on safety/hunting... not assault type weapons and combat courses. Targets were bullseyes, not 1/2 body silhouettes. TV/movies were milder, and there were no first person shooter video games. I got into a lot of trouble as a kid, but the idea of shooting up a bunch of innocents never did/would enter my mind... it was/is entirely contradictory. And I don't believe my experience/history is at all unique. Add to that, when I was a kid adults had to be "respected," and dual career parents were uncommon (i.e. there was usually an adult you had to get past).
I don't know where the failures are, but I have to believe it's cultural and across the spectrum. I don't know what has made owning an assault type rifle more desirable/cool (I could own one, never had the desire). I have to believe the exposure to dissociative type killing of people (games/TV/movies) plays a part. As well as not having an appreciation for what it means to actually kill something (i.e. hunting/farm/military).
That last point really bothers me... I have a real problem with people who are anti gun/hunting but eat meat. And I have a real problem with people who are "macho/gun-ho," even in the military/police.
I don't want to be one of those people who points at one thing and says "that's the problem." It's not just video games, and it's not just semi-auto rifles... IDK what it is, if I did it would be a lot easier. We are failing our youth, in this way and so many others... when I say "youth" I mean all of those generations that have grown up after me.
Maybe I'm just nostalgic/old, but I don't think so... there has been a gradual shift in our culture and what kids are exposed to. And it coincides with the increase in these types of events.
sk66
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One thing that strikes me; of all the females I know (my kids, friend's kids, adults, etc) almost none are into first person shooter games or similar TV shows/movies. None are into combat type weapons although some are hunters... how many of these incidences are carried out by females? What causes this difference?
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Phil V
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But it is Steven.
Just because your upbringing was chocolate box perfect, that doesn’t mean everyone else’s is. And you’re trying to shift the blame because you’ve swallowed the propaganda.
For clarity (please be honest):
Do you think age controls on porn are sensible? Why?
Do you think age controls on Gambling are sensible? Why?
Do you think age controls on sex are sensible? Why?
Do you think age controls on smoking are sensible? Why?
Do you think age and competence controls on driving are sensible? Why?
Now think again about guns. Why is ‘no controls’ the only sensible option?
Open your mind to what the rest of the world are seeing. You seem to fall into the binary camp that sees any control as wrong. But I’d need a license to drive you to the airport, and you presumably think that’s perfectly sensible. You’re not wringing your hands about the reason I might need a licence to drive, and extra registration to do it for a living, it’s too bloody obvious.
sk66
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I figured I should respond to this as well...
No matter what checks/preventions you put in place you cannot know that what is true today will be true tomorrow.
I hope I have made it clear that I am all for "common sense" measures, as is the vast majority of the US population.
redhed17
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Mmm, I have no desire to kill anything, but I eat meat occasionally.
If I had to kill something to eat meat, I would probably be vegetarian. I don't see what that has to do with being anti gun and also being a meat eater. If anything I would be more likely not to kill anything. Call me a wimp or whatever you like. Or are you saying that you shouldn't eat meat unless you can kill 'something 'yourself? If someone was to live in an environment where killing something to eat was a matter of life and death, then hunt something and kill it to survive, 'we' are top of the food chains after all, but I doubt any hunter in America is in that situation in the 21st century. The western world is at a point of food production that no one other that farmers and abattoirs need to kill animals. People pay a premium for the food for others to kill it.
That hunting is considered a sport always confuses me too. Animal v armed hunter(s).
I have no doubt there is skill in tracking an animal and being an accurate shot to kill it, but that is for the 'enjoyment' of the hunt and the kill than for having enough food to live. Sport is something for evenly matched opponents imho, and that is no match for me.You have obviously been raised in a culture where hunting is normal, and by default gun ownership too. I live in a country where neither have had anything to do with my life, and so such things seem alien. Coming from that background, was the reason I welcomed your participation in this thread, because even though we may speak a similar language,
our outlooks on the world, and the guns in it are very different in many cases.
Phil V
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There’s as many teenagers everywhere else in the world playing shooting games Steven. And there’s mentally ill kids elsewhere, and angry kids and kids who hate school (I was one of them, a bit awkward and hated school).
But in most of the world it’s not ‘normal’ for them to build a collection of semi automatic weapons. There’s no organisation promoting the freedom of guns and turning a blind eye to the glamourisation.
I’ll be blunt, it’s also a white kid problem. If this was a string of black kids (Hispanics, Muslims, etc) shooting up ‘normal’ neighbourhoods, the conservatives wouldn’t be sitting on their hands and saying there’s nothing they can do.
How utterly removed from reality does a parent need to be to allow their child to build up an Arsenal big enough to besiege a village?
Phil V
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The vast majority aren’t building up an Arsenal and killing dozens, any controls would allow ‘reasonable’ its a lot simpler than your NRA are telling you.
sk66
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My upbringing was far from perfect...
By 10 yrs of age I was on my 3rd father, the first two were abusive drunks. The last was verbally abusive and an asshole. They were all military so I moved every 2-3yrs, loosing all of my friends, always the new kid. And I was/am a small guy... always being the new kid and being small meant I got picked on A LOT. To counter that I developed a short and violent temper. Some of the places I lived were not very great... I was in several knife fights as a kid. My mom is/was caring, but not what you would call "maternal."
I mentioned that I got into a lot of trouble as a kid, the first time the police came to my house looking for me I was 12... I didn't grow out of that until sometime in my 20's. If I am completely honest I have never grown out of it completely and I probably never will. I have a deep emotional dissociative issue, and I still have a capability to be extremely violent/cold in me somewhere (just a muuuch longer fuse).
Where did I ever say "no controls?"
sk66
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Jeeze, I'm not a member of the NRA... I don't care what "they say," or the propaganda from either side.
Building up an arsenal? Who is allowing that, the law? Where are the adults/parents in all of this?
Byker28i
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For sk66.
I understand guns, I understand the fun. I was also trained from an early age, was in the military, have guns now for sporting purposes all licences, controlled and I have insurance. I go shooting in other countries where I have access to other weapons.
But we're not talking about these responsible owners. We're talking about people who can privately buy guns without any restrictions, without a licence, without any training, or even proof of where it will be used. No limitation of quantity of weapons, of the amount of ammo.
It's the easy access to weapons, mixed with the culture of acceptance that's the issue. When you've people like the NRA saying it's a god given right and that's accepted by many. When you've the same people using the second amendment incorrectly and it's accepted by many. When you've the president and many politicians taking the same stance and the NRA money. When it's easy to blame 'crazy people' rather than actually do anything about it.
The Young generation can change this culture, need to be encouraged to change this, because the 'adults' show no interest in doing so. Otherwise nothing will change, it'll still be 'thoughts and prayers' .
I understand guns, I understand the fun. I was also trained from an early age, was in the military, have guns now for sporting purposes all licences, controlled and I have insurance. I go shooting in other countries where I have access to other weapons.
But we're not talking about these responsible owners. We're talking about people who can privately buy guns without any restrictions, without a licence, without any training, or even proof of where it will be used. No limitation of quantity of weapons, of the amount of ammo.
It's the easy access to weapons, mixed with the culture of acceptance that's the issue. When you've people like the NRA saying it's a god given right and that's accepted by many. When you've the same people using the second amendment incorrectly and it's accepted by many. When you've the president and many politicians taking the same stance and the NRA money. When it's easy to blame 'crazy people' rather than actually do anything about it.
The Young generation can change this culture, need to be encouraged to change this, because the 'adults' show no interest in doing so. Otherwise nothing will change, it'll still be 'thoughts and prayers' .
sk66
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My issue is not with having no desire to hunt/kill, I don't either, that's why I don't hunt anymore. It is with those who feel hunting is "cruel" and so are anti-hunting/anti-gun, but yet they eat meat... the vast majority of raised livestock live/die and much crueler life (at least here).Mmm, I have no desire to kill anything, but I eat meat occasionally.
Byker28i
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The Vegas shooter was a grown adult, millionaire, with access to lots of money.
Cruz, the Florida shooters mother died in November.
I've got three kids, all live miles from me in Stroud, Cambridgeshire and one at uni in swansea.
I've no idea what they are doing.
And yup, the laws, variable across the states, no records apart from paper, no licensing...
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sk66
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I have said that the background check system is flawed and needs fixed, that the loopholes around the checks need closed, that some weapons need greater regulation/control... Even though I am a gun owner, pro hunting/environmentalist, and military... maybe partly because of all of that.
I can't change/fix the politics other than by who I vote for. And TBH, "gun control" isn't a top priority on my list of concerns. I'm saying that *I believe* the issue is primarily sociological and unique to the US. I live in a country where the economics are extremely polar. Where there are "the entitled" and the discarded. Where those who have feel no responsibility for those who do not. Where universal healthcare is "bad" somehow. Where both parents have to work in order to stay afloat. Where priorities mean we have to have "more" and thus the emphasis is on money/work/careers rather than life and our responsibilities to our youth. Take the assault weapons away, I don't care...we're still screwed.
Phil V
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You’ve not advocated any controls, just tried to justify the current lack of such.
An answer to my questions re other things you as a nation control might help us all.
D
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Yes the problem is the guns, the way to easy access and lack of control with the ones buying them.
The way from thought to action is way to short and easy for kids having a bad day, being mentally ill and maybe shortly between meds. It's to easy for the shy Boy being bullied, just turned down by the girl he addores and then told off by teachers to leave school to return an hour later with an AR15 and a pair of full mags.
You don't need armed guards to kill these kids
You need to prevent them to act on their impulses by preventing easy access to guns
And then you need to support them in their Journey through late childhood and help them on in life.
Helsingør kids is not about armed guards and killing, quite the opposite.
The way from thought to action is way to short and easy for kids having a bad day, being mentally ill and maybe shortly between meds. It's to easy for the shy Boy being bullied, just turned down by the girl he addores and then told off by teachers to leave school to return an hour later with an AR15 and a pair of full mags.
You don't need armed guards to kill these kids
You need to prevent them to act on their impulses by preventing easy access to guns
And then you need to support them in their Journey through late childhood and help them on in life.
Helsingør kids is not about armed guards and killing, quite the opposite.
sk66
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I have. I've noted that the BG check system is flawed and needs fixed. That the loopholes around them need closed. That high capacity semi-auto weapons serve no real purpose and need greater regulation. That sporting semi-autos should be limited to 3-5 rounds and not clip fed. etc, etc. I have not tried to justify the failures of the system.
I believe fixing the system will minimize the "acts of passion." The short timeframe incidents where someone could just go buy/get a gun and commit a crime. But IMO most of these mass killings do not fall into that category. IMO, they are due to a lack of empathy and some form of disassociation from society.
EDIT:
I didn't answer them because they are nearly as complex IMO... I don't have the answers for everything/everyone...
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D
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Apart from the last part
I think a lot of the mass killings indeed fall into the short time frame incident category
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sk66
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We don't have to agree, it doesn't matter. Any killings that can be prevented would be a good thing. We'll never know who's right unless some things change...Apart from the last part
D
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Limiting easy access prevents the short time frame shooting but also gives a first aid and phsychological response system time to get into place
Identifying troubled youngsters and get them into therapy is very much also a case of not to have to fight very short time frames and being able to report and allert and get allerted when they try to buy a deadline weapon.
I really think simplifying this to let armed guards take them out is an insult to humanity
Identifying troubled youngsters and get them into therapy is very much also a case of not to have to fight very short time frames and being able to report and allert and get allerted when they try to buy a deadline weapon.
I really think simplifying this to let armed guards take them out is an insult to humanity
D
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But debating, getting to know views and seeing different perspectives is always very good especially coming from different cultures and nations.
Phil V
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But every country has youth who can suffer from a lack of empathy and disassociation.
The difference is that American kids in that state sometimes have access to an arsenal of weapons.
A complete cop out. Sorry Steven, I’m not expecting you to have an answer beyond there’s accepted reasons that we keep kids away from those other things, but keeping guns away is somehow ‘not simple’. Sorry but it is simple.
Byker28i
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I feel your pain. I used to be a regular visitor to the us.