Shooting at Florida School

And with a bump stock fitted, it or any of it's clones are as near as damn it fully automatic which is the criterion for an AR.
 
i'm just glad the yanks are walled up behind those borders can't wait intil they build that Mexican one should stop even more of them getting out.
 
Mr Bump said:
i'm just glad the yanks are walled up behind those borders can't wait intil they build that Mexican one should stop even more of them getting out.
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Sadly not enough. The USA is a big manufacturer of 'legal' guns. That quickly become 'illegal' guns in both US states and outside of the US.
"Criminals will just use illegal guns if they are banned" is an argument used by the pro gun nutters. Yet those guns always start off legal. If they weren't manufactured in the millions for the retail market, they'd never be so easily available to the crooks in places all round the world.
 
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True but we British also sell death to anyone that will pay our arms industry does pretty well. We just don't deal out the death on our pretty unspoilt soil.
 
The photo op from the hospital was sickening - smiles and a thumbs up? awful.

the survivors of the shooting have all been amazing and they way they are handling themselves in the media is astounding. it feels like there is a tiny hope of something, where there has never been before.
 
dan_yell said:
The photo op from the hospital was sickening - smiles and a thumbs up? awful.

the survivors of the shooting have all been amazing and they way they are handling themselves in the media is astounding. it feels like there is a tiny hope of something, where there has never been before.
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I have to agree there.
I've seen some, teenagers all, speaking passionately, yet eloquently under the fierce media gaze.

Sadly, so long as the man who's in charge is in charge, I fear their speeches will fall on deaf, disinterested ears.

Maybe, young as they are, they are the beginning of a new US political era.
 
MartynK said:
The AR-15 isn't an assault rifle.
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viv1969 said:
It's categorised as one in military law.
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Phil V said:
What the actual f***...
There's 15 dead kids and YOU think the salient point is to discuss the classification of the weapon used? A weapon designed for the sole purpose of killing people. You really are scraping the bottom of a very deep vessel, I seriously question your humanity.
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andy700 said:
The AR15 was a development of the Armalite rifle, and current versions use NATO 5.56 ammunition. The Armalite was designed to be a lightweight assault rifle and was used extensively in the Vietnam war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite_AR-15

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_AR-15

As Phil correctly points out, this type of rifle was designed for one purpose only - killing other human beings.
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Strictly speaking, MartynK is right in that the the AR stands for Armalite, but everyone calls it an assault rifle, the instructor when I shot one in January, Sarah Saunders, whitehouse spokesperson yesterday when saying they are discussing ownership agem law enforcement agencies call them assault rifles, and they were specifically included in the 1994 assault rifle ban.
Hence the confusion

Having shot one several times, they are as Phil and Andy point out, very efficient, competent tools for killing people. Why Florida thinks you can legally buy one at 18 yet not a handgun until you are 21 is baffling.
Looks like Trumps having a kneejerk reaction, going for proposals from the NRA on bumpstocks and getting some of the documentation up to date. Current the paper records are out of date as there isn't any prosecution if the paperwork isn't completed.

What they really need for starters is a searchable, computerised record of gun owners and weapons, that law enforcement can access/
 
dan_yell said:
i wonder what its like to live in this paranoid, delusional world. their blood pressure must be off the scale.
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When you factor in all the guns, and the fact that possibly 50% of Americans will believe these evil conspiracy theories/lies, it isn't the sort of place I would ever wish to visit again.
 
viv1969 said:
Sadly, so long as the man who's in charge is in charge, I fear their speeches will fall on deaf, disinterested ears..
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It doesn't matter who is in charge, they will never change. :( Obama was anti gun, and it all continued and even got worse. :rolleyes: The pro gun lobby is so powerful, that no one man, or even one party, can make any changes. :(

I'm not sure what percentage of the American people are pro guns too, but it must be a fair amount. If the majority of their people don't want it, it will not happen regardless of anything else. And they will never have a referendum for the people to actually choose like Brexit. And if they did, imagine the intimidation from the pro gun population. :eek: :(

It will just go on and on sadly. :(
 
redhed17 said:
I'm not sure what percentage of the American people are pro guns too, but it must be a fair amount. If the majority of their people don't want it, it will not happen regardless of anything else.
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IIRC it’s close to 50:50 and the reaction to this school shooting does appear to be tipping abalance.

But the NRA are a very well organised lobby group, they make the anti EU lobby look like rank amateurs.
 
and according to Trump the solution is .................................to arm all teachers :banghead::banghead:
 
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is that real @Byker28i ???

@andy700 - i am the same, i visited a lot as a kid, thru my teens, into my 20s and then again in my 30s due to a LDR, you could say I loved the place at one point but i have no desire to go there now. i have a friend who moved there but apart from the fact i don't want to spend so much on a flight to visit her, i dont want to step foot in the place with everything going on. At one point I was going to live there and if DOMA had been repealed 10 years earlier i may well have done and all my worst fears would be coming true now. we may be no pretty picture with Brexit but ill take that over the alternative...

and do all presidents have cuffs with a number on? what is going on with those cuffs, looks like he is wearing a wrist support after too much wanking.
 
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Uneducated_Rick said:
according to Trump the answer is whatever the NRA tell him to say
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I don't generally think that is true, I think they have massive power mainly in the senate and the house of representatives due to all the money they bribe them with, sorry that should mean support and sponsor.
its all business and power and high level you pat my back and I will stroke your dick in American politics and the average joe just has very little say.

Trump is not better than Bush and probably more effective than Obama in actually getting things passed, problem is its all bigoted, racist and bad for poor people.
 
unbelievable.

whos the kid in one of those articles who praised Trump's leadership? what have they been smoking?
 
why does he have 45 on his sleeve, bullet caliber? I'm all for memory aides but a piece of paper so visible as that?
There's little hope is there?
Sadly what I earlier described as conjecture now appears to be becoming fact (once again).

Matt

Edit - Looks like 45 is indicative of him being the 45th President
 
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MatBin said:
why does he have 45 on his sleeve, bullet caliber? I'm all for memory aides but a piece of paper so visible as that?
There's little hope is there?
Sadly what I earlier described as conjecture now appears to be becoming fact (once again).

Matt

Edit - Looks like 45 is indicative of him being the 45th President
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It's his IQ.
 
Fox news of course are running with a sherrif saupporting Trumps views:
Sheriff Grady Judd: “We have got to wake up, wake up and understand that we have to have… specially trained people that have concealed firearms that can run to the threat and protect our children.”
https://BANNED/foxnews/status/964840168036462592

This guy posted a good response: https://www.facebook.com/Stonekettle/posts/1605583792810351

Jim Wright replying:

“We have got to wake up, wake up and understand that we have to have… specially trained people that have concealed firearms that can run to the threat and protect our children.”

"specially trained"

By ... who?

Who designs the training. On what criteria? To what standards? No, don't just say, "the local police department" or something similar. This training would have to specially designed because you're talking about non-professionals with guns in a building full of panicked children AND those "specially trained people" will be very likely facing a CHILD with a gun who is killing other children. We don't train soldiers for that. We don't train cops for that. So we're going to need special training, including not just the mechanics and theory of combat arms, but the psychology of killing a CHILD in an active shooter situation. If you don't understand why this is a problem, then you're very likely unqualified to be in this conversation in the first place. It takes years of training to condition a soldier to kill another human being on command, let alone a child. And when that killing occurs, it's usually in a warzone, alongside your squadmates, and while that engagement is very, very often chaotic, it can't be compared to the confusion and chaos of a building packed with screaming running children that you are supposed to be protecting. In a warzone, if your bullets hit a civilian, even a child, well, that's collateral damage. It happens. It can't NOT happen. That's war. But a school? Full of American kids? You starting to see why you'd need some VERY, VERY specific training?

Who pays for it? Combat arms is a perishable skill, so how often is refresher training and re-qualification mandated?

Who do these "specially trained people" answer to? Are they trained to work together? Or are they Lone Wolf McQuade?

How do you insure the school in this situation?

Because you going to HAVE to insure the school.

Are the specially trained people personally liable for their fire? If they hit an innocent kid, if they kill an innocent kid or cripple him or her for life? Who's responsible for that?

Moreover, is the "specially trained person" responsible for failure to stop an active shooter?

Well?

No. No. Don't roll your eyes. You live in America (most of you). We are a litigious society. Somebody has to be responsible. You were trained. You had a gun. You failed to stop the shooter, when the grieving parents sue you, will the school board pay your legal fees? Or will the the school, school board, state take responsibility?

SOMEBODY has to be legally responsible.

What weapons?

It makes a difference, you know. Larger, high velocity rounds can penetrate body armor, but also walls, doors, etc, meaning increased chance of collateral damage in a building full of children. We made the cockpit doors on commercial aircraft bullet proof, are we going to do that with classrooms? If not, well, we're back to that question of who's responsible when the school gets sued for not protecting the students from stray bullets fired by their own teachers.

So, do you mandate acceptable weapons? Ammunition? Fields of Fire? Zones of responsibility. Or is it the Wild West?

How do the cops know who the licensed and qualified "specially trained people" are?

This hole is bottomless.

You are essentially talking about turning teachers into soldiers and schools into warzones. You would do everything, EXCEPT address the actual problem. Easy availability of high powered weapons of war.

Now look, I did not say there shouldn't be armed guards in schools. I didn't say there should.

Likewise, I didn't say teachers shouldn't be armed. Or that they should.

Instead, I asked some VERY basic questions regarding the proposed idea of allowing or even mandating armed teachers and school personnel.

I used to do this for a living. I've had advanced training and extensive experience in this area. I was trained by both military and civilian schools. I taught combat arms. I'm a gun owner. I have a concealed carry permit. I'm hardly anti-gun. I didn't suggest anything, one way or the other. Instead, I'm asking BASIC questions about this idea of arming up teachers and putting amateurs with guns in schools. Questions that any competent gun operator should ask.

You want to put more guns, carried by amateurs, into a building packed full of children. I don't think I'm being unreasonable here.
 
According to some google garbage

The number “45” is a reference to Trump’s place in the line of U.S. presidents, following No. 44, President Barack Obama.
 
Byker28i said:
Fox news of course are running with a sherrif saupporting Trumps views:
Sheriff Grady Judd: “We have got to wake up, wake up and understand that we have to have… specially trained people that have concealed firearms that can run to the threat and protect our children.”
https://BANNED/foxnews/status/964840168036462592

This guy posted a good response: https://www.facebook.com/Stonekettle/posts/1605583792810351
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Wow. That is superb.
 
A reply to a tweet saying giving guns to teachers isn't exactly the best idea - this person thinks that knives and swords do more damage than a gun... riiight.

"If the teacher has mental health issues to the point he's willing to kill children. What's to stop him bringing a knife in, or a sword? He could do more damage with them, after, all they don't run out of ammunition."

the hope i had that something was going to change is out the window this morning

@MatBin @Mr Bump i wasn't asking what the 45 meant, i think that's pretty clear, just if it's normal to wear such a shirt, have others before him? or does he need reminding which president he is?

@Byker28i local police training the teachers - police that have been in the news lately for unnecessary deaths of black people - what a can of worms... could say that would be no good as most of the shooters are not POC.. I've always said, all these people like "yeah more people there should have guns" - like all these 'good guys' with guns would absolutely not go to pieces in a real active shooter situation - these people who accidentally shoot family members - yeah, sounds great.

yep, that hope, rapidly fading.

"Gun free zones are the problem. 90% of mass shootings are carried out in gun free zones. Having a few trained teachers on site with sidearms in anti grab holsters would be sufficient enough deterrent. The U.K. bans guns. Didn’t stop 2,554 gun incidents in the U.K. last year."

wtf is wrong with these people - who, anyway, has said that gun control will stop ALL gun deaths - no laws stop EVERYTHING. but wouldn't it be nice to stop some of them?? geez. i wish i could slap all these people
 
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dan_yell said:
"If the teacher has mental health issues to the point he's willing to kill children. What's to stop him bringing a knife in, or a sword? He could do more damage with them, after, all they don't run out of ammunition."
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Then you have parents demanding the right to arm the children, obviously. The answer to rogue shooters are more guns
 
@dan_yell donno mate he is just a complete bum hole is trump how can we knoe the inside out a lunatics head.
 
dan_yell said:
i wasn't asking what the 45 meant, i think that's pretty clear, just if it's normal to wear such a shirt, have others before him? or does he need reminding which president he is?
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I don't want to drag the thread off track, but I think the question as to whether there is a precedent is quite interesting. I don't think it's at all unreasonable for Trump to be proud to be the 45th Pres, and having it embroidered on his cuff is really no different to all the cricketers having their international cap numbers tattooed on their arms, or Olympic athletes having the five rings tattooed. (Do they need reminding that they went to the Olympics?) But it would be interesting to know whether Obama had 44 embroidered or tattooed anywhere, etc.
 
Byker28i said:
I thought that - very good response
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It was, until he said this - "if your bullets hit a civilian, even a child, well, that's collateral damage. It happens. It can't NOT happen. That's war. But a school? Full of American kids?"
It really doesn't matter about foreign civilians and children, because they are not worth as much as American children.
It demonstrates the lack of empathy a lot of Americans have for non Americans, which I witnessed first hand when visiting the US back in 2006. We were staying in Carlsbad, near to Marine Camp Pendleton, and in a bar one night we heard one of the marines saying "can't wait to get to Iraq so we can shoot up some ragheads".
 
StewartR said:
I don't want to drag the thread off track, but I think the question as to whether there is a precedent is quite interesting. I don't think it's at all unreasonable for Trump to be proud to be the 45th Pres, and having it embroidered on his cuff is really no different to all the cricketers having their international cap numbers tattooed on their arms, or Olympic athletes having the five rings tattooed. (Do they need reminding that they went to the Olympics?) But it would be interesting to know whether Obama had 44 embroidered or tattooed anywhere, etc.
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Maybe the official shirtmaker to the President lobs the number on in case any come back for repair etc after the former President has "retired"?
Maybe it's on there in case he gets blown up and they can then identify bits of him,
Who knows, it's America so anything might be "true".
 
andy700 said:
It was, until he said this - "if your bullets hit a civilian, even a child, well, that's collateral damage. It happens. It can't NOT happen. That's war. But a school? Full of American kids?"
It really doesn't matter about foreign civilians and children, because they are not worth as much as American children.
It demonstrates the lack of empathy a lot of Americans have for non Americans, which I witnessed first hand when visiting the US back in 2006. We were staying in Carlsbad, near to Marine Camp Pendleton, and in a bar one night we heard one of the marines saying "can't wait to get to Iraq so we can shoot up some ragheads".
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I think he was making a point about indiscriminate weapons such as bombing, trying to make the point of a difference between war and a terrorist act in a crowded public place
 
Trump said:

“You know, a lot of people don’t understand that airline pilots now, a lot of them carry guns, and I have to say that things have changed a lot. People aren’t attacking the way they would routinely attack and maybe you would have the same situation in schools.”

if a lot of people don't know airline pilots carry guns, how has it helped change things? It can't deter people if they don't know about it.??
 
dan_yell said:
Trump said:

“You know, a lot of people don’t understand that airline pilots now, a lot of them carry guns, and I have to say that things have changed a lot. People aren’t attacking the way they would routinely attack and maybe you would have the same situation in schools.”

if a lot of people don't know airline pilots carry guns, how has it helped change things? It can't deter people if they don't know about it.??
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They're also not allowed to leave the cabin with their gun, in any circumstance.
 
I think he's referring to the Federal Flight Deck Officer Program (volunteer program) or the federal air marshall service.
As Andy said, the pilots aren't allowed to leave the flight deck with guns, they are purely there to enable cockpit defence so the plane can be landed. A lot of planes have armoured doors now.

None of which has anything to do with the drop in attacks, it's all been on increased security before attackers get on the plane
 
as usual, nonsense. that Rubio dude just refusing to say it wouldn't take NRA money any more, just wow to say that to the face of the kids from the attack. If they are 'buying into him' not him to them, then he would accept donations from the KKK then? Spineless jellyfish
 
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