Shooting and Explosions in Paris

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Llamaman said:
I return to thread to see everyone has turned on each other.
Chalk up another victory for ISIL...
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This is the post I was referring to when I said
Cobra said:
Only if you think it is.
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A pan of milk coming to the boil, if you stand and look and think, that's gonna spill all over the hob, and make a mess,
Then of course it will.
Milk wins.
But if reach out, turn off the heat no mess.
Negative thoughts never helped anyone,
By saying they have won, then they are best part of the way there.
 
poacher said:
Nobody is turning away war refugees from syria they are more than welcome , what they don`t want is economic migrants who are hanging on to the lines of refugees.
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You clearly haven't read the thread or watched the news - there's plenty of people now demanding we refuse refugees from Syria because they might be terrorists. Exactly what ISIL want.
 
big soft moose said:
this point is weak , which large organised terror group were the atackers in mali part of ? - i'll give you a clue it wasn't IS ... currently everything that is done by islamic extremists is lumped as IS action because the motivation is essentially jihad regardless of whether the attackers are actually part of IS , part of another terror group with similar aims, or fellow travellers acting alone....

If you follow the same logic with regard to Breivik , he was a far right christian fundamentalist nutcase essentially acting alone but inspired by the philosophy of groups like christian identity, WAR etc -

So if muslims as a whole are culpable for the actions of anyone with a jihadi motivation, why are christians as a whole not culpable for the actions of christian fundamentalists ?
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The attackers in Mali were part of Jihadist group Al Mourabitoun and al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM). Al-Qaeda and IS attacks all fall under the same jihadist umbrella. Breivik's case can't be solved with the same logic because he was a lone wolf and ultra-nationalist.
 
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big soft moose said:
What if someone claims to be a good parent but regularly beat his child with a rod ... or has him stoned to death because he won't obey him ?
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The bible's use of the term "rod" implies the rod of discipline, which may include physical discipline but in the main means teaching, guidance and direction, (coming from the root term meaning 'disciple' or 'taught one'), discipline is something every imperfect man and woman is in need of and we all receive it in some form or another. The bible never condones the mistreatment of children and particularly do the instructions to Christians require parents to love their children, rearing them with kindness and understanding.
Nowhere in the bible are parents authorised to unilaterally stone their children ... under the Mosaic Law, apostasy was a sin worthy of death and if the child, (in fact an 'adult' child), refused to change his/her apostate ways they were tried and if found guilty sentenced to death by the Jewish Leaders ... the parents, who had brought the complaint, were to 'cast the first stone'.
As said previously, Christians are not under the Mosaic Law, which was for the Jews, but are rather under the Law of Christ.
The guidance and commands in the bible for Christians today reflect Jesus' own concern for little children, "suffer the little children to come to me".
 
Llamaman said:
You clearly haven't read the thread or watched the news - there's plenty of people now demanding we refuse refugees from Syria because they might be terrorists. Exactly what ISIL want.
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It's about our own security people are worried, not what IS think. The security and financial repercussions will impact them directly as refugees won't be staying next to your MP or the powers that be.
 
gramps said:
The bible's use of the term "rod" implies the rod of discipline, which may include physical discipline but in the main means teaching, guidance and direction, (coming from the root term meaning 'disciple' or 'taught one'), discipline is something every imperfect man and woman is in need of and we all receive it in some form or another. The bible never condones the mistreatment of children and particularly do the instructions to Christians require parents to love their children, rearing them with kindness and understanding.
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Proverbs is pretty clear that its talking about a physical rod

for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell
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gramps said:
Nowhere in the bible are parents authorised to unilaterally stone their children ... under the Mosaic Law, apostasy was a sin worthy of death and if the child, (in fact an 'adult' child), refused to change his/her apostate ways they were tried and if found guilty sentenced to death by the Jewish Leaders ... the parents, who had brought the complaint, were to 'cast the first stone'.
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or if they defy their parents or are stubborn or rebellious

Deuteronmomy 21:18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him,19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town.20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.”21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death
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gramps said:
As said previously, Christians are not under the Mosaic Law, which was for the Jews, but are rather under the Law of Christ.
.
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Except that Matthew specifically tells christians that they are subject to the old testament laws

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them, for truly I tell you until heaven and earth disapear not the smallest letter nor the least stroke of the pen will by any means disapear from the law until everything is accomplished
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Matthew 5 :17-19
 
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Laudrup said:
It's about our own security people are worried, not what IS think. The security and financial repercussions will impact them directly as refugees won't be staying next to your MP or the powers that be.
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yes but IS want us to discrimate against muslims as a whole because the worse we treat them the easier it is for them to paint us as the enemy of all islam .. they also want us to be terrorised and afraid... it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that knee jerk hysteria plays into their hands on both levels
 
Cobra said:
This is the post I was referring to when I said


A pan of milk coming to the boil, if you stand and look and think, that's gonna spill all over the hob, and make a mess,
Then of course it will.
Milk wins.
But if reach out, turn off the heat no mess.
Negative thoughts never helped anyone,
By saying they have won, then they are best part of the way there.
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In your analogy, the 'heat' is rage and fear. ISIL cannot win on the battlefield, so it wants to get inside your head. It can only win there if you let it - but judging by the way the West has reacted to Paris, they've beaten some people already.
A lot of the proposed 'solutions' here - mostly more violence, more civilian deaths, more oppression and control - simply continues the circle and plays into ISIL's hands.
 
big soft moose said:
Proverbs is pretty clear that its talking about a physical rod
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As I said, it may include physical punishment.

big soft moose said:
or if they defy their parents or are stubborn or rebellious
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or that, in extreme cases.

Remember that this would not come as a surprise to any Jew back then, when Moses presented them with the 10 commandments and several hundred other regulations they affirmed, "So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the Lord had commanded him. All the people answered together and said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do!” And Moses brought back the words of the people to the Lord." (Exodus 19:7,8)

big soft moose said:
Except that Matthew specifically tells christians that they are subject to the old testament laws

Matthew 5 :17-19
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At the time Jesus was speaking Christianity had not been established, he was living as a Jew under Jewish Law, as were his mother and father, Mary and Joseph. At Jesus' death and resurrection God ceased dealing with the Jews exclusively and started to draw people from every nation ... prior to his death Jesus, referring to the Jews and the Jewish System, " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones all those God sends to her! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me. And now your house is left to you, desolate." (Matthew 23:37,38).
The Apostle Paul further discussed the transformation from God dealing with the Jews to dealing with 'the people of the nations' and was specifically appointed as 'an Apostle to the nations'.
 
gramps said:
At the time Jesus was speaking Christianity had not been established,
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Indeed - but at the time that the bible was written down and codified christianity had been established - yet matthew still instructs Christians to obey the old testament (after all if the old testament isnt relevant to christians why is it included in the bible ? )

gramps said:
At Jesus' death and resurrection God ceased dealing with the Jews exclusively and started to draw people from every nation ... '.
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If we accept that there is only one god - sure he always dealt with all peoples - if he did not how were the others created ?
 
Llamaman said:
ISIL cannot win on the battlefield, so it wants to get inside your head. It can only win there if you let it -
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Exactly my point, it wasn't me that said
Llamaman said:
I return to thread to see everyone has turned on each other. Chalk up another victory for ISIL...
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big soft moose said:
Indeed - but at the time that the bible was written down and codified christianity had been established - yet matthew still instructs Christians to obey the old testament (after all if the old testament isnt relevant to christians why is it included in the bible ? )
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Matthew wrote the record of Jesus actual activity and sayings at the time he stated them, Matthew didn't put his own spin on things as they were at the time he wrote them, it wasn't Matthew's message it was Gods.

big soft moose said:
If we accept that there is only one god - sure he always dealt with all peoples - if he did not how were the others created ?
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No God has not always dealt exclusively with all people, he created Adam & Eve, from whom every man and woman came, but eventually chose to deal specifically with one nation, Israel, to provide a traceable line of genealogy to the Messiah Jesus Christ, (recorded in the books of Matthew and Luke) ... after Jesus was born and completed his ministry and was put to death that had been accomplished and that special relationship was no longer needed and the Jews had proved unworthy of it.
From that time onward God no longer had a special relationship with the Jews and as Paul said 'every man working righteousness is acceptable to him', regardless of race, colour etc ... the book of Revelation further confirms Gods acceptance of righteous people from 'all nations, tribes, people and tongues'.
 
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gramps said:
Matthew wrote the record of Jesus actual activity and sayings at the time he stated them, Matthew didn't put his own spin on things as they were at the time he wrote them, it wasn't Matthew's message it was Gods.

.
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Allegedly.
 
gramps said:
Matthew wrote the record of Jesus actual activity and sayings at the time he stated them, Matthew didn't put his own spin on things as they were at the time he wrote them, it wasn't Matthew's message it was Gods.
'.
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So if god's message was that christians should obey the laws of the old testament , why do you feel that Christians are not bound by these rules ?

on the latter point

a) what about the lost tribes of isreal and

b) Why would god need a 'traceable line of geneology' to jesus, when the important point was that jesus was his son (assuming we believe in the virgin birth etc - rather than that jesus made all this stuff up later in order to give himself credibility as a sect leader)
 
boyfalldown said:
I'm put in mind of the Simpsons episode where Krusty and his Dad spend much time debating the Torah
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I think I must have missed that one.
 
gramps said:
Matthew wrote the record of Jesus actual activity and sayings at the time he stated them, Matthew didn't put his own spin on things as they were at the time he wrote them, it wasn't Matthew's message it was Gods.
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So why four gospels written at different times then if Matthew got it all right and didn't spin things then
 
big soft moose said:
So if god's message was that christians should obey the laws of the old testament , why do you feel that Christians are not bound by these rules ?
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Don't know how you come to that conclusion, it has never been God's message that Christians should obey the laws of the old testament ... Jesus summed up the requirement for Christians as 'love God with your whole heart, soul and strength and your neighbour as yourself' ... Christians are not required to obey the Mosaic Law but the principle that Jesus stated above encompasses all anyway, e.g. if you love your neighbour then "thou shalt not steal" is unnecessary as you don't steal from one you love.

big soft moose said:
on the latter point

a) what about the lost tribes of isreal and

b) Why would god need a 'traceable line of geneology' to jesus, when the important point was that jesus was his son (assuming we believe in the virgin birth etc - rather than that jesus made all this stuff up later in order to give himself credibility as a sect leader)
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a) What about them?

b)Did you read the genealogy in Matthew and Luke? It proves the lineage from Jesus' parents back to Adam, the first created being ... the Jews were looking for the promised Messiah and they could check a valid claim (there were many) from the lineage amongst other things. For the Jews the record of family lineage was a vitally important matter and kept up to date until Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans and all records were lost, hence no Jew today can trace his/her lineage back past that time.
As with all things related to the bible record, great care was made to ensure that facts were correctly recorded and documented by the official Scribes, who were responsible for recording matters accurately.
 
Cobra said:
Oh gods :rolleyes:

:D
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FTFY if it's to be a proper theological debate!

boyfalldown said:
So why four gospels written at different times then if Matthew got it all right and didn't spin things then
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At least four, all translated several times and spun at every translation to suit attitudes at the time.
 
big soft moose said:
yes but IS want us to discrimate against muslims as a whole because the worse we treat them the easier it is for them to paint us as the enemy of all islam .. they also want us to be terrorised and afraid... it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that knee jerk hysteria plays into their hands on both levels
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The security of the country comes well ahead of what IS or a refugee thinks. We have enough people here who need shelter, food and jobs without importing more. We seem to be discriminating against our own people in favour of those thousands of miles away in a misguided attempt to make ourselves feel a bit better whilst the politicians champ at the bit to bomb Syria. That will probably create more enemies than refusing refugees.
 
boyfalldown said:
So why four gospels written at different times then if Matthew got it all right and didn't spin things then
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Each gospel writer comes from a different perspective e.g. Matthew a tax collector and biased toward figures and documents, Luke a physician and biased toward people and circumstances, John focuses his particular attention on God's expression of love for mankind etc. God used different people to record His message to mankind and that helps us to see an overall picture from a variety of different perspectives.
However none of the gospel writers offered a 'different' message, as each was inspire by God to write their record but from their own particular perspective.
 
Surely ever
gramps said:
Don't know how you come to that conclusion, it has never been God's message that Christians should obey the laws of the old testament ... Jesus summed up the requirement for Christians as 'love God with your whole heart, soul and strength and your neighbour as yourself' ... Christians are not required to obey the Mosaic Law but the principle that Jesus stated above encompasses all anyway, e.g. if you love your neighbour then "thou shalt not steal" is unnecessary as you don't steal from one you love.



a) What about them?

b)Did you read the genealogy in Matthew and Luke? It proves the lineage from Jesus' parents back to Adam, the first created being ... the Jews were looking for the promised Messiah and they could check a valid claim (there were many) from the lineage amongst other things. For the Jews the record of family lineage was a vitally important matter and kept up to date until Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans and all records were lost, hence no Jew today can trace his/her lineage back past that time.
As with all things related to the bible record, great care was made to ensure that facts were correctly recorded and documented by the official Scribes, who were responsible for recording matters accurately.
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Surely everyone is descended from Adam IF the tale of the creation is true? No need to prove it.
 
gramps said:
b)Did you read the genealogy in Matthew and Luke? It proves the lineage from Jesus' parents back to Adam, the first created being ... the Jews were looking for the promised Messiah and they could check a valid claim (there were many) from the lineage amongst other things. For the Jews the record of family lineage was a vitally important matter and kept up to date until Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans and all records were lost, hence no Jew today can trace his/her lineage back past that time.
As with all things related to the bible record, great care was made to ensure that facts were correctly recorded and documented by the official Scribes, who were responsible for recording matters accurately.
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I'm sorry.....you can choose to believe whatever you like...knock yourself out; but not one single line in the entire bible contains a single shred of proof. Of anything.
 
viv1969 said:
but not one single line in the entire bible contains a single shred of proof. Of anything.
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Darwin's The Origin of Species on the other hand was published a little over 200 years ago. ;)
 
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Nod said:
Surely ever

Surely everyone is descended from Adam IF the tale of the creation is true? No need to prove it.
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Very true ... do you believe it, did everyone then believe it? (hardly, they put him to death!).
The Messiah would need the legal right of lineage ... that would need to be provable to men, it was, even though they ignored it, as do the majority of mankind today.
 
gramps said:
Each gospel writer comes from a different perspective e.g. Matthew a tax collector and biased toward figures and documents, Luke a physician and biased toward people and circumstances, John focuses his particular attention on God's expression of love for mankind etc. God used different people to record His message to mankind and that helps us to see an overall picture from a variety of different perspectives.
However none of the gospel writers offered a 'different' message, as each was inspire by God to write their record but from their own particular perspective.
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& a different time as well ;) with atleast one been heavily influenced by the others
 
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Cobra said:
Darwin's The Origin of Species on the other hand was published a little over 200 years ago. ;)
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and promoted by none less than the Church of Egland who refute creation and support Darwin's 'theory of evolution' ... no wonder people question the church's relevance today.
 
gramps said:
and promoted by none less than the Church of Egland who refute creation and support Darwin's 'theory of evolution'
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Bloody madness isn't it?
gramps said:
no wonder people question the church's relevance today.
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I certainly can't disagree with that!

But you have admit that Darwin's theory, and I used the word deliberately as there is no hard and fast proof of that either, although there is a lot of conjecture, and
circumstantial evidence to support it,
make's a lot more sense than God created man in his own image, then there was the rib thing, and to top it all that damned snake got involved.
And the rest is "History" as the saying goes.
 
Cobra said:
Darwin's The Origin of Species on the other hand was published a little over 200 years ago. ;)
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Hmm, not quite. Darwin was born in 1809, and the Origin of Species was first published in November 1859. It wasn't really all that long ago.
 
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