Shooting and Explosions in Paris

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Blimey 10 Alerts I have only been gone an hour ish........

I think there are a few of you who have some understanding of small amounts of the Christian Bible, fair enough. My question has not been answered by anyone. I know this because I know much of what scripture says about me. I know what I can do and moreso what I should do, I read mostly about what I do, do and that it is not in line with scripture, why? well I am not great at being Christ like! Thats a fact. Like I said work in progress! and any change for the better in me is because of what God has done.

I glean from this thread that some of you seem to have more to say about Christian people then you do about anyone else. Thats ok! Ive been mocked and spat at for my faith in my own city. I have also been with a person who rejoyced at the sound of the gospel just before she slipped away, if news of the love of God made here last few breaths easier then my folly for the last 20 or so years was worth it. I have seen peoples lives changed for the better because of what faith in Christ has done....real or not they have been changed.... fact.

I do see many things done in history in the name of God, well men can do anything in the name of someone else, deflects responsibility doesnt it. Does not mean the named person be it God or who ever has to accept responsibility for what the men did..no the people who commit crimes in the name of another do so on their own.

As for the hatred of Homosexuals.......Thats just not true I dont hate them at all, Jesus said to love your neighbour, he did not exlude Homosexuals or anyone for that matter in that mandate. Christ came to fulfill the law (old testament) and give us hope in him, why? because we could not keep the law!
In a nut shell....

I feel a little hated here for being honest about my faith......I cant change they way some of you feel, sorry the Gospel is what it is and is always going to offend people, why? because its challenging to the way many people want to live, and no one like's to be told to do anything in this day and age do they...

Its either all true or the biggest con ever! Christians leave this up to you to accept or reject, no hard feelings.

I will bow out now.......
 
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dejongj said:
Denying their Christianity is not helpful in my opinion.
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Actually it's very helpful, how can you understand Christianity if you believe that those who are not following its teaching are Christians?
 
viv1969 said:
David Koresh was a Christian.
Lovely fella that one.
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Just like there are those that say daesh isn't Islamic, I'm now convinced there are those who will say he isn't a Christian.

I stand corrected and give up.

I think I'll just blame Baroness Thatcher at least we can all agree on something :)
 
viv1969 said:
David Koresh was a Christian.
Lovely fella that one.
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Don't be silly he was Seventh-day Adventist they are not Christians for a start off, they keep Saturday as sacred who on earth would do that?
......................... Oh wait a minute ;)

Something tells me that these religions are inextricably linked ;)
 
gramps said:
It may well be ... it certainly should be a major contributory factor.
Depends ... what does their religion teach? Not all religious organisations teach what the Bible says, many teach contrary to what it says so may well share fault.
Not necessarily, they choose to do what is bad, religion may or may not help them to change ... each of us has free will.
They are responsible, and well done them, though the Creator giving each of us a conscience helps :)
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But surely if the creator gave us all a conscience, he must take some responsibility for the bad people?

Or, maybe we all have free will, and some of us are good and some are bad, some of each of those cite religion as a contributory factor, but in reality, there's no provable link.:D

Cause and effect is just about the most misunderstood statistical tool, I often hear an attribution that makes much more sense turned on its head.
 
gramps said:
Actually it's very helpful, how can you understand Christianity if you believe that those who are not following its teaching are Christians?
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Is that for you to judge whether they are or not? But besides that, the point is and I'll try it one more time; they believe they are and are very good at convincing others that they are. Really no different than what daesh is doing.

On a different note; the US has just issued a travel alert to its citizens. Combined with Belgium and our jtac I suspect the international intelligence services have got some "interesting" intelligence.
 
Being only as close to an Arabic acronym as our language can get (and failing dismally), da'esh does come over as daft in an English conversation.
 
LASTOLITE said:
I will bow out now.......
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Don't do that, I admire both you and @gramps for your stand points and faith, getting stuck into the bear pit like that,
Its a good polite ( mostly) discussion, rarely seen these days, on this subject :thumbs:


dejongj said:
I think I'll just blame Baroness Thatcher at least we can all agree on something :)
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Now we are getting to the crux of the matter :thumbs:
( but I got the impression she thought she was some kind of demi-god ;) )
 
Cobra said:
Don't be silly he was Seventh-day Adventist they are not Christians for a start off, they keep Saturday as sacred who on earth would do that?
......................... Oh wait a minute ;)

Something tells me that these religions are inextricably linked ;)
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It's the sky fairies ;)
 
andy700 said:
More excuses:p
I thought that you were mistyping, but the LRA is correct - The Lords Resistance Army - a Christian influenced group which has massacred people over a very large part of Africa. They are quite like ISIL in that they are religiously motivated and use very extreme "Old" Testament forms of oppression - murder, rape, child abduction etc.
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Breivik:

"There are few things in the world which is more pathetic than the Jesus figure and his message, and I have always despised the weakness and the internationalism that the church represents."

He stressed that he prays and sacrifices to God and receive strength from God, but that he calls him "Odin, not Jesus or Jehovah."
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Change Jesus with Muhammad and God with Allah and imagine an IS fighter saying it. I can't see that going down too well with his mates in Raqqa. Breivik seems to identify with Odinism and much more with ultra-nationalism. Drawing parallels with IS doesn't really hold up to scrutiny with Breivik.

The LRA ideology even experts are struggling to understand, again not a problem with IS who bluntly tell you.
 
dejongj said:
Is that for you to judge whether they are or not? But besides that, the point is and I'll try it one more time; they believe they are and are very good at convincing others that they are. Really no different than what daesh is doing.

On a different note; the US has just issued a travel alert to its citizens. Combined with Belgium and our jtac I suspect the international intelligence services have got some "interesting" intelligence.
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http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/alertswarnings/worldwide-travel-alert.html
 
LASTOLITE said:
Blimey 10 Alerts I have only been gone an hour ish........

I think there are a few of you who have some understanding of small amounts of the Christian Bible, fair enough. My question has not been answered by anyone. I know this because I know much of what scripture says about me. I know what I can do and moreso what I should do, I read mostly about what I do, do and that it is not in line with scripture, why? well I am not great at being Christ like! Thats a fact. Like I said work in progress! and any change for the better in me is because of what God has done.

I glean from this thread that some of you seem to have more to say about Christian people then you do about anyone else. Thats ok! Ive been mocked and spat at for my faith in my own city. I have also been with a person who rejoyced at the sound of the gospel just before she slipped away, if news of the love of God made here last few breaths easier then my folly for the last 20 or so years was worth it. I have seen peoples lives changed for the better because of what faith in Christ has done....real or not they have been changed.... fact.

I do see many things done in history in the name of God, well men can do anything in the name of someone else, deflects responsibility doesnt it. Does not mean the named person be it God or who ever has to accept responsibility for what the men did..no the people who commit crimes in the name of another do so on their own.

As for the hatred of Homosexuals.......Thats just not true I dont hate them at all, Jesus said to love your neighbour, he did not exlude Homosexuals or anyone for that matter in that mandate. Christ came to fulfill the law (old testament) and give us hope in him, why? because we could not keep the law!
In a nut shell....

I feel a little hated here for being honest about my faith......I cant change they way some of you feel, sorry the Gospel is what it is and is always going to offend people, why? because its challenging to the way many people want to live, and no one like's to be told to do anything in this day and age do they...

Its either all true or the biggest con ever! Christians leave this up to you to accept or reject, no hard feelings.

I will bow out now.......
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As I said, your question was rather dishonest - not at all very 'Christ like' you are indeed work in progress.

But then, we knew that as we've seen your attitude to other human beings before based on their beliefs. :)
 
viv1969 said:
Being only as close to an Arabic acronym as our language can get (and failing dismally), da'esh does come over as daft in an English conversation.
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But a damned sight easier to pronounce than Dawlat al-Islamiyah f'al-Iraq w Belaad al-Sham
 
Cobra said:
But a damned sight easier to pronounce than Dawlat al-Islamiyah f'al-Iraq w Belaad al-Sham
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Yes but in English that's Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant!! :-)
 
viv1969 said:
Yes but in English that's Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant!! :)
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Confused? to bloody right I am!
Moo Google tells me
Daesh, an adapted acronym of their Arabic name - Dawlat al-Islamiyah f'al-Iraq w Belaad al-Sham - is similar to another Arabic word - das - which means 'to trample down' or 'crush',
 
LASTOLITE said:
Blimey 10 Alerts I have only been gone an hour ish........

I think there are a few of you who have some understanding of small amounts of the Christian Bible, fair enough. My question has not been answered by anyone. I know this because I know much of what scripture says about me. I know what I can do and moreso what I should do, I read mostly about what I do, do and that it is not in line with scripture, why? well I am not great at being Christ like! Thats a fact. Like I said work in progress! and any change for the better in me is because of what God has done.

I glean from this thread that some of you seem to have more to say about Christian people then you do about anyone else. Thats ok! Ive been mocked and spat at for my faith in my own city. I have also been with a person who rejoyced at the sound of the gospel just before she slipped away, if news of the love of God made here last few breaths easier then my folly for the last 20 or so years was worth it. I have seen peoples lives changed for the better because of what faith in Christ has done....real or not they have been changed.... fact.

I do see many things done in history in the name of God, well men can do anything in the name of someone else, deflects responsibility doesnt it. Does not mean the named person be it God or who ever has to accept responsibility for what the men did..no the people who commit crimes in the name of another do so on their own.

As for the hatred of Homosexuals.......Thats just not true I dont hate them at all, Jesus said to love your neighbour, he did not exlude Homosexuals or anyone for that matter in that mandate. Christ came to fulfill the law (old testament) and give us hope in him, why? because we could not keep the law!
In a nut shell....

I feel a little hated here for being honest about my faith......I cant change they way some of you feel, sorry the Gospel is what it is and is always going to offend people, why? because its challenging to the way many people want to live, and no one like's to be told to do anything in this day and age do they...

Its either all true or the biggest con ever! Christians leave this up to you to accept or reject, no hard feelings.

I will bow out now.......
Click to expand...
Please don't bow out. I'm a firm believer that we can learn most from those who at first we seem to disagree with. Without a variety of viewpoints, perspectives and opinions it will become a very single sided conversation.

I definitely think it is worthwhile to read the varying perspectives as long as nobody starts making it personal and nobody ridicules others for their views.
 
dejongj said:
I definitely think it is worthwhile to read the varying perspectives as long as nobody starts making it personal and nobody ridicules others for their views.
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That nicely sums up what I was trying to say above :thumbs:
 
Cobra said:
Oh great now the Yanks are are somewhere between DEFCON 4 & 3 :rolleyes:
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They'll be booting up WOPR now :) hopefully they'll leave the accoustic coupler disconnected this time.
 
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Phil V said:
As I said, your question was rather dishonest - not at all very 'Christ like' you are indeed work in progress.

But then, we knew that as we've seen your attitude to other human beings before based on their beliefs. :)
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Unfair Phil

Phil my question was not answered by scripture and I am not disingenious in my asking as I did. There is absolutely no mandate for me to do anything to anyone who does not believe in Christ. That is between them and God and nothing to do with me. IF it was then God would not be the personal God.

I have only replied as you accused me of something I did not do.

I agree however for myself I am a work in progress, however you are also not my judge, you neither have the ability, wisdom or the authority. Just as I do not posses it over you or anyone else. That is reserved for only God according to the Bible.

Now I am bowing out - but only this thread! :) God Bless you all!
 
dejongj said:
They'll be booting up WOPR now :) hopefully they'll leave the accounting couple disconnected this time.
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:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Edit I see the predictive text is having fun with your post ( Above)
:D
 
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Cobra said:
:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
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I'm glad you got it. Stupid predictive spelling. Naturally I meant the accoustic coupler. No idea where accounting game from. Off to play tic tac toe now :)
 
LASTOLITE said:
Unfair Phil

Phil my question was not answered by scripture and I am not disingenious in my asking as I did.
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But it was answered. "They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.". There is your justification for killing us non-believers.
 
I return to thread to see everyone has turned on each other.

Chalk up another victory for ISIL...
 
Nobody needs a holy book for wise words and inspiration:

From this distant vantage point, the Earth might not seem of any particular interest. But for us, it's different. Consider again that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner. How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity – in all this vastness – there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known, so far, to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment, the Earth is where we make our stand. It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.

 
Llamaman said:
I return to thread to see everyone has turned on each other.

Chalk up another victory for ISIL...
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It's lines like that which make me chuckle.

A few people in a (thus far) generally good natured exchange of often opposing views on an internet forum, does not in any way relate to the ongoing intentions of any terrorist group.

Do you honestly believe they're sitting out there now, rubbing their hands together and saying "Yes! Victory! The infadels of TP are disagreeing with one another.... Allah is indeed great!!"?

Is that how it's going to be now?
Oh no... We're out of Bacon....chalk up a win for ISIL.
Yikes...no alcohol permitted in the stands at a football match...ISIL win again!!

Please. Let's at least keep a sense of proportion.
 
Phil V said:
But surely if the creator gave us all a conscience, he must take some responsibility for the bad people?
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Why?
He gave each one of us free will to do as we wish, live by his standards or not ... would you prefer you were a robot?
Each one of us will account to God for the way we use the gift of free will ... we could blame God if he had not given us abundant direction on the right way to use it.

dejongj said:
Is that for you to judge whether they are or not?
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Judgement has been given to Jesus Christ by God, so final judgement is not my prerogative.
However, Jesus himself when speaking about wicked men said, "By their fruits you will know these men", in other words you can see what a man (or woman) is really like by the things that they do, he also told them to watch out for "the leaven of the Pharisees" (the religious leaders of his day) i.e. their bad influence ... Jesus would not have said those things if it was wrong to make a judgement on people by their actions.
If a person claims to be a good parent but continually neglects his children, do you believe his claims or do you take the view that actions speak louder than words?
 
gramps said:
Why?
He gave each one of us free will to do as we wish, live by his standards or not ... would you prefer you were a robot?
Each one of us will account to God for the way we use the gift of free will ... we could blame God if he had not given us abundant direction on the right way to use it.



Judgement has been given to Jesus Christ by God, so final judgement is not my prerogative.
However, Jesus himself when speaking about wicked men said, "By their fruits you will know these men", in other words you can see what a man (or woman) is really like by the things that they do, he also told them to watch out for "the leaven of the Pharisees" (the religious leaders of his day) i.e. their bad influence ... Jesus would not have said those things if it was wrong to make a judgement on people by their actions.
If a person claims to be a good parent but continually neglects his children, do you believe his claims or do you take the view that actions speak louder than words?
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As long as that parent thinks they are a good parent then they are in their eyes. And that is the problem. Merely any of us saying they are not will not change their minds.
 
dejongj said:
As I said, excellent point enlighten us, which large organised terror group was he part of? And what other massacres have they been responsible for? (y)
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this point is weak , which large organised terror group were the atackers in mali part of ? - i'll give you a clue it wasn't IS ... currently everything that is done by islamic extremists is lumped as IS action because the motivation is essentially jihad regardless of whether the attackers are actually part of IS , part of another terror group with similar aims, or fellow travellers acting alone....

If you follow the same logic with regard to Breivik , he was a far right christian fundamentalist nutcase essentially acting alone but inspired by the philosophy of groups like christian identity, WAR etc -

So if muslims as a whole are culpable for the actions of anyone with a jihadi motivation, why are christians as a whole not culpable for the actions of christian fundamentalists ?
 
viv1969 said:
It's lines like that which make me chuckle.
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Your weak reductio makes me chortle.

viv1969 said:
Please. Let's at least keep a sense of proportion.
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Something we can agree on.

Is blaming all muslims for the actions of a small minority proportionate?
Is closing our borders to those fleeing war and persecution proportionate?
Is abandoning our civil liberties - fought for tooth and nail - proportionate?
Is living in fear of a risk smaller than breathing the air proportionate?

Nothing wrong with my sense of proportion.
 
dejongj said:
As long as that parent thinks they are a good parent then they are in their eyes. And that is the problem. Merely any of us saying they are not will not change their minds.
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Doesn't change the facts though.
 
Llamaman said:
I return to thread to see everyone has turned on each other.

Chalk up another victory for ISIL...
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I'm fairly sure ISIL don't like it when people turn each other on ... they tend to throw peoople off car parks for that
 
Cobra said:
Only if you think it is.
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On the contrary - when we start killing civilians in Raqqa in revenge, turning away the refugees that that war creates and curtailing our freedoms to fight the extremists it recruits - we will see it as 'being strong' when in fact it will be our defeat.
 
gramps said:
If a person claims to be a good parent but continually neglects his children, do you believe his claims or do you take the view that actions speak louder than words?
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What if someone claims to be a good parent but regularly beat his child with a rod ... or has him stoned to death because he won't obey him ?
 
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