Shooting and Explosions in Paris

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Raincloud said:
These days its mostly terrorist groups with a Muslim faith that do the attacking
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/14/are-all-terrorists-muslims-it-s-not-even-close.html

"As Europol, the European Union’s law-enforcement agency, noted in its report released last year, the vast majority of terror attacks in Europe were perpetrated byseparatist groups. For example, in 2013, there were 152 terror attacks in Europe. Only two of them were “religiously motivated,” while 84 were predicated upon ethno-nationalist or separatist beliefs."
 
Ricardodaforce said:
Really? What do you base that on? I was just reading about terrorist attacks in Great Britain since the year 2000. The MINORITY were by Muslims.
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And when we're talking about ISIS, the majority of the victims are muslim as well.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
So because the paris attacks were part of an organised group such as ISIS, all muslims must for some reason express their disgust otherwise they're seen as part of the problem? Buf if a christian commits a barbaric act, no other christians have to denounce it, because they're not part of a larger sect?
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dont you think there is a distinction between a one off lone wolf incident, and an organised sustained attack on global scale purely based upon religion? Well fair enough if you think they are equal and the same and require the same treatment. I disagree with you. As does jtac and most defender/intelligence communities around the world. But hey ho, each to their own.
 
dejongj said:
dont you think there is a distinction between a one off lone wolf incident, and an organised sustained attack on global scale purely based upon religion? Well fair enough if you think they are equal and the same and require the same treatment. I disagree with you. As does jtac and most defender/intelligence communities around the world. But hey ho, each to their own.
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Intelligence wise, of course there's a difference, but not in the expectations of the reaction of innocent people just because of their religion. Only in that the organisations should be monitored and intelligence gathered to stop future attacks.

Getting innocent muslims all over the world to publicly express their outrage, while never expecting white Christians to do the same for the likes of the KKK etc, is just bigotry. If you can't see that, you're probably a bigot.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
I assume that the majority of Christians must support what Anders Breivik did since they didn't all immediately flood the news and social media with their apologies for his actions.
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He was not a Commited Christian - He was a self confessed Nazi

And for the record there is NOTHING what so ever in Gods word to support what he did! Infact thinking about doing it would be wrong according to scripture.
 
Raincloud said:
These days its mostly terrorist groups with a Muslim faith that do the attacking
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But it doesn't make all Muslims members of terrorist organisations.
The number that are is tiny, yet they are all tarred with the terrorist brush.
 
Don't let this descend into another name calling exercise or it'll go the way of the other threads on this subject :lock:
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Intelligence wise, of course there's a difference, but not in the expectations of the reaction of innocent people just because of their religion. Only in that the organisations should be monitored and intelligence gathered to stop future attacks.

Getting innocent muslims all over the world to publicly express their outrage, while never expecting white Christians to do the same for the likes of the KKK etc, is just bigotry. If you can't see that, you're probably a bigot.
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Shame you feel the need to bring the discussion down and put unacceptable labels on people and make this personal.

Not sure where the comment regarding the KKK comes from, the vast majority globally find it unacceptable. There were huge marches against them and everything. Very odd to bring that into this thread.

viv1969 said:
But it doesn't make all Muslims members of terrorist organisations.
The number that are is tiny, yet they are all tarred with the terrorist brush.
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I don't think they are all tarred with the terrorist brush, and they most definitely shouldn't be. As someone has said previously more Muslims have been killed by this and associated organisations than by anyone else. It is appalling, truly terrible. However they keep doing this in the name of their faith. They see themselves as justified by Allah. saying they are not Islamic is just not helping the situation as think they are. to me, the first step to resolution is recognising you have a problem and openly and inclusively discuss them and recognise that they are also Islamic and Muslims.
 
LASTOLITE said:
He was not a Commited Christian - He was a self confessed Nazi

And for the record there is NOTHING what so ever in Gods word to support what he did! Infact thinking about doing it would be wrong according to scripture.
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However I do think he saw himself as a Christian. Not that it is relevant to the point or scale unless there is a whole Christian movement who start doing that. God forbid. Then it would be, to me, on the same scale and causes a big problem for all. I don't think he was asking for people to cite out of the old or New Testament ;)
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Intelligence wise, of course there's a difference, but not in the expectations of the reaction of innocent people just because of their religion. Only in that the organisations should be monitored and intelligence gathered to stop future attacks.

Getting innocent muslims all over the world to publicly express their outrage, while never expecting white Christians to do the same for the likes of the KKK etc, is just bigotry. If you can't see that, you're probably a bigot.
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viv1969 said:
But it doesn't make all Muslims members of terrorist organisations.
The number that are is tiny, yet they are all tarred with the terrorist brush.
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I dont for one miute think all muslim people are terrorists......

There is an agenda though that they are prepared to do battle over, you would agree with that? I mean they are not pacifists are they.... I have never felt upset as a Christian to the jokes on TV and the cartoons and the likes of Dave Allen and well so many others. I cringe a little when I hear Jesus Christ being used as a curse. I would never want anyone dead over things, that have offended me and not alot offends me to be honest, people who have a voice but they are evidently ill informed of the subject matter gets up my nose a little....I suppose and lack of correct use of roundabouts mini ones esp get me..........I need to deal with that! LOL but I am by no means perfect.

In fact if anything becomming a Christian has shown me just how much I fall short of what I should be like! especially to my fellow human beings! The biggest room in my life is the room for improvement. Gods word tells me, shows me and gives me plenty of examples of this. At my very best!...I am a work in progress. In fact even the things I do for others are described as nothing more than reasonable service as a human being! nowt special......I am not saved by things I do or say but by Faith afforded to me by Grace, and by nothing I have or can do or earn in of myself.
 
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LASTOLITE said:
He was not a Commited Christian - He was a self confessed Nazi

And for the record there is NOTHING what so ever in Gods word to support what he did! Infact thinking about doing it would be wrong according to scripture.
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dejongj said:
Shame you feel the need to bring the discussion down and put unacceptable labels on people and make this personal.

Not sure where the comment regarding the KKK comes from, the vast majority globally find it unacceptable. There were huge marches against them and everything. Very odd to bring that into this thread.



I don't think they are all tarred with the terrorist brush, and they most definitely shouldn't be. As someone has said previously more Muslims have been killed by this and associated organisations than by anyone else. It is appalling, truly terrible. However they keep doing this in the name of their faith. They see themselves as justified by Allah. saying they are not Islamic is just not helping the situation as think they are. to me, the first step to resolution is recognising you have a problem and openly and inclusively discuss them and recognise that they are also Islamic and Muslims.
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I think it's a personally acceptable label for someone who treats christians and muslims differently, and a perfectly adequate comparison. Yes, the vast majority globally find it unacceptable, both the actions of ISIS and the KKK. However, the key difference is that not *all* white people are made to apologise for the actions of groups like the KKK yet all muslims are expected to apologise for the actions of a terrorist organisation, who for the most part, people don't agree are following a true interpretation of Islam in the first place.
 
LASTOLITE said:
I dont for one miute think all muslim people are terrorists......

There is an agenda though that they are prepared to do battle over, you would agree with that? I mean they are not pacifists are they.... I have never felt upset as a Christian to the jokes on TV and the cartoons and the likes of Dave Allen and well so many others. I cringe a little when I hear Jesus Christ being used as a curse. I would never want anyone dead over things, that have offended me and not alot offends me to be honest, people who have a voice but they are evidently ill informed of the subject matter gets up my nose a little....I suppose and lack of correct use of roundabouts mini ones esp get me..........I need to deal with that! LOL but I am by no means perfect.

In fact if anything becomming a Christian has shown me just how much I fall short of what I should be like! especially to my fellow human beings! The biggest room in my life is the room for improvement. Gods word tells me, shows me and gives me plenty of examples of this. At my very best!...I am a work in progress. In fact even the things I do for others are described as nothing more than reasonable service as a human being! nowt special......I am not saved by things I do or say but by Faith afforded to me by Grace, and by nothing I have or can do or earn in of myself.
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I would agree that ISIS have an agenda. But not "muslims".
 
KitsuneAndy said:
I think it's a personally acceptable label for someone who treats christians and muslims differently, and a perfectly adequate comparison. Yes, the vast majority globally find it unacceptable, both the actions of ISIS and the KKK. However, the key difference is that not *all* white people are made to apologise for the actions of groups like the KKK yet all muslims are expected to apologise for the actions of a terrorist organisation, who for the most part, people don't agree are following a true interpretation of Islam in the first place.
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It is a shame that that is what you take away from what I wrote as that is so far away from my intend.

As such I do think it is unacceptable to make it personal and apply such labels in this discussion.
 
LASTOLITE said:
I dont for one miute think all muslim people are terrorists......

There is an agenda though that they are prepared to do battle over, you would agree with that? I mean they are not pacifists are they.... I have never felt upset as a Christian to the jokes on TV and the cartoons and the likes of Dave Allen and well so many others. I cringe a little when I hear Jesus Christ being used as a curse. I would never want anyone dead over things, that have offended me and not alot offends me to be honest, people who have a voice but they are evidently ill informed of the subject matter gets up my nose a little....I suppose and lack of correct use of roundabouts mini ones esp get me..........I need to deal with that! LOL but I am by no means perfect.

In fact if anything becomming a Christian has shown me just how much I fall short of what I should be like! especially to my fellow human beings! The biggest room in my life is the room for improvement. Gods word tells me, shows me and gives me plenty of examples of this. At my very best!...I am a work in progress. In fact even the things I do for others are described as nothing more than reasonable service as a human being! nowt special......I am not saved by things I do or say but by Faith afforded to me by Grace, and by nothing I have or can do or earn in of myself.
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Thing is no one needs a god to live the life that they should be living do they? I don't give a flying f*** about Jesus but that doesn't mean I am not courteous and respectful to those that I meet. I brought my children up knowing right from wrong without the need of a mythical being in the ether. I don't steal, kill, rape etc and that has nothing to do with any deity. I am inspired on a daily basis by things I read, and none of them come from a supposedly holy book. One can live a peaceful, good life without having to defer to a higher being. However, I am destined to eternal damnation for denying his existence. Lovely guy your god. f*** him.
 
dejongj said:
However they keep doing this in the name of their faith. They see themselves as justified by Allah. saying they are not Islamic is just not helping the situation as think they are. to me, the first step to resolution is recognising you have a problem and openly and inclusively discuss them and recognise that they are also Islamic and Muslims.
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So, you're saying that the majority of peaceful Muslims who consider these acts and people unIslamic should be forced - by non-Muslims, most of whom have never raid the Koran - to accept ISIS as sharing their faith? That's not helpful - it's simply non-Muslims trying to abrogate the responsibility of dealing with the issue.

Would you be happy for all Christians to be held responsible for the LRA?
 
KitsuneAndy said:
I would agree that ISIS have an agenda. But not "muslims".
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OK then. I am sure we will see as things unfold. I think they all have an agenda to bring their faith with no compromise to the UK and in time they hope that their specific laws will replace what we have now. An islamic state here in the UK I think is what many muslims eventually want to see here and its a collective desire. isis are the catalist for this in many of the minds of UK muslims. I am not saying that all muslims are terrorists at all but I think deep down its what they want to see, an islamic UK.....
 
KitsuneAndy said:
However, the key difference is that not *all* white people are made to apologise for the actions of groups like the KKK
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April 1990
EAST BERLIN — After four decades of denying a dark past,
East Germany today apologized to Israel and all Jews for the Nazi Holocaust and accepted joint responsibility for the slaughter of 6 million Jews during World War II.

November 2006 Blair apologised for Britain part in the slave trade, but chose his words carefully to avoid any "legal retort"
(TBH you can't blame him for that, not in this litigation culture we now live in.)

August 2007 Ken Livingstone apologised publicly ( when he was Lord mayor) for London part in the slave trade.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
Thing is no one needs a god to live the life that they should be living do they? I don't give a flying f*** about Jesus but that doesn't mean I am not courteous and respectful to those that I meet. I brought my children up knowing right from wrong without the need of a mythical being in the ether. I don't steal, kill, rape etc and that has nothing to do with any deity. I am inspired on a daily basis by things I read, and none of them come from a supposedly holy book. One can live a peaceful, good life without having to defer to a higher being. However, I am destined to eternal damnation for denying his existence. Lovely guy your god. f*** him.
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Not very coutious or respectful that. Sorry you feel like that. I have offered a reason as to where I am comming from that is all. I came to faith late in life and I can only present a reason for the hope I have. If that has offended you then I appologise.
 
LASTOLITE said:
Not very coutious or respectful that. Sorry you feel like that. I have offered a reason as to where I am comming from that is all. I came to faith late in life and I can only present a reason for the hope I have. If that has offended you then I appologise.
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No need to apologise at all. You have your views I have mine.
 
Llamaman said:
So, you're saying that the majority of peaceful Muslims who consider these acts and people unIslamic should be forced - by non-Muslims, most of whom have never raid the Koran - to accept ISIS as sharing their faith? That's not helpful - it's simply non-Muslims trying to abrogate the responsibility of dealing with the issue.

Would you be happy for all Christians to be held responsible for the LRA?
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Responsible no, neither would I see other Muslims as responsible for daesh.

However I don't recall Christians going around saying that it is a religion of peace and the LRA aren't Christians. It is terrible what they've been doing. And actually the US is acting against them. But yes if that turns global I would expect much more condemnation, but no denial that these are not Christians doing that. Unfortunately it plays low on the new radar these days.
 
Near death experience causing you to grasp at straws? I know a few people who have had "deathbed" type conversions and think they've seen the light...

ETA, a response to Bill's post 3 or 4 above.
 
LASTOLITE said:
He was not a Commited Christian - He was a self confessed Nazi

And for the record there is NOTHING what so ever in Gods word to support what he did! Infact thinking about doing it would be wrong according to scripture.
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Of course not, If you just completely ignore all the bible quotes supporting violence towards unbelievers on purpose? Get a grip. Almost all religions contain instructions to ensure that they can prosper at the expense of non-believers. The bible is no different to the Koran in this respect (which is even less surprising really considering their roots).

Of course Brejvik was a bit of a Nazi, but he was also a Christian, which he felt supported his views (just like Adolf before him).

What I find most sickening is that it's the Christian apologists who hold the most objectionable views of believers of other faiths, with no sense of irony, and a laughable lack of self awareness.
 
dejongj said:
...

However I don't recall Christians going around saying that it is a religion of peace and the LRA aren't Christians. It is terrible what they've been doing. And actually the US is acting against them. ..
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Well here y go. ;)
LASTOLITE said:
...

And for the record there is NOTHING what so ever in Gods word to support what he did! Infact thinking about doing it would be wrong according to scripture.
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Phil V said:
If you just completely ignore all the bible quotes supporting violence towards unbelievers on purpose?
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Show me please. Direct scripture that permits me to kill people who do not accept Christ as their Lord and Savior.
 
The cognitive dissonance in this thread is a sight to behold.
 
Nod said:
Near death experience causing you to grasp at straws? I know a few people who have had "deathbed" type conversions and think they've seen the light...

ETA, a response to Bill's post 3 or 4 above.
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Going a little more off topic.

I am going to leave this here as Its going to be more and more about the wrong subject matter.
 
LASTOLITE said:
Show me please. Direct scripture that permits me to kill people who do not accept Christ as their Lord and Savior.
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There's plenty in the Old Testament.. :naughty:

As well you know which is why your question was so specific. ;)
 
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