Shooting and Explosions in Paris

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RichardtheSane said:
The problem with this logic is really simple.

If they get attacked in Iraq and Syria civillians will die. Lots of them. These are innocent people who never asked for their country to be invaded by Daesh, never asked for their national treasures to be destroyed by an organised military force, never asked for their families to be torn apart by the extremists. Are you OK with this?
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Don't disagree, BUT, what is the answer. The more this goes on the more I think a full scale attack of some kind is needed.

There will not be a pain free solution and while different think about 1944 when we went into France and Holland. Many innocents killed but it meant they were free from tyranny.
 
The people killed inParis were innocent civilians enjoying a night out, those killed in the 9/11 attacks were innocent peopledoing their jobs, same with the London tube bombings,
most tkilled duringthe blitz in WW2 were innocentvictims, near me a school was bombed by a returning german bomber killing youg kids.
Terrorism and war will always result in innocent deaths, butit has to be stopped, if not they will continue to attack defenceless targets.
 
St Denis siege not far from the Stade de France

08:46
"The situation is very confused, tense too because people don't know what happened," St Denis resident Antoine Mokrane - who lives on a street near to where the explosions happened - tells the BBC.

"Even if I want to go out I can't because military's here and they say you have to stay at home."

Other main developments:

  • The French prosecutor says a woman wearing an explosive suicide vest has blown herself up in the standoff with police
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-34840858
 
Ricardodaforce said:
I did wonder about that. The link posted was from the Mirror (a news source?) whilst nothing was appearing on CNN.com nor BBC.com. Mind you, looking at who posted it, it may well have been an archived Mirror story from WWII.
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To be fair, it was a breaking news story that flashed up on the Sky News app. But don't let that get in the way of personal digs and ridicule.
 
poacher said:
St Denis resident Antoine Mokrane - who lives on a street near to where the explosions happened - tells the BBC.

"Even if I want to go out I can't because military's here and they say you have to stay at home."
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So how did he manage to speak to the bbc?
 
Cobra said:
The thought never even crossed my mind TBH I was looking up Moose's comment about the peace pagoda in Willen, as I live local, (I though it may have made the news at some point,)
When I stumbled across that reference.
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It's quite common in South Asia. The word comes from Sanskrit and most of them seem to be anticlockwise - the Nazi perversion was clockwise - but I don't think that's definitive.
 
I was feeling quite Corbyn-esque about IS, until they killed Diesel. Now I'm thinking Trident could be useful after all.

https://BANNED/PNationale/status/666916020234383361/photo/1

:-(
 
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FujiLove said:
I was feeling quite Corbyn-esque about IS, until they killed Diesel. Now I'm thinking Trident could be useful after all.

https://BANNED/PNationale/status/666916020234383361/photo/1

:-(
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I was just reading that


09:55JOHN SHAMMAS
Police name dog 'killed by terrorists' during raid
Police officers have named the dog who died in the police terror raid as Diesel.

The tweet adds that it is a Belgian shepherd dog who was “killed by terrorists”.

Diesel, a Belgian shepherd dog, our anti-terror police dog, has been killed by terrorists in our ongoing operation.

It is not clear if the dog pictured in the tweet is Diesel.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/paris-terror-siege-live-updates-6852306
 
I think that this is pretty disgusting, and should a wakeup call for anyone who has any doubts where Turkey's loyalties lie.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/nov/18/turkey-greece-minute-silence

Turkey have been shelling and bombing the Kurds in Iraq and Syria, they bombed the Kurds at a demo in Turkey last week, and now they boo during the minute's silence for the victims of the Paris attacks.
I think that we should expel them from NATO.
 
andy700 said:
I think that this is pretty disgusting, and should a wakeup call for anyone who has any doubts where Turkey's loyalties lie.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/nov/18/turkey-greece-minute-silence

Turkey have been shelling and bombing the Kurds in Iraq and Syria, they bombed the Kurds at a demo in Turkey last week, and now they boo during the minute's silence for the victims of the Paris attacks.
I think that we should expel them from NATO.
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They want to join the EU as well.


  • Monday 22 September 2014
Turkey accused of colluding with Isis to oppose Syrian Kurds and Assad following surprise release of 49 hostages


Mystery surrounds the surprise release of 49 Turkish diplomats and their families held captive for three months by Isis. The Turkish government is denying any deal with the hostage-takers, making it unclear why Isis, notorious for its cruelty and ruthlessness, should hand over its Turkish prisoners on Saturday without a quid pro quo.

Hailed in Ankara as a triumph for Turkey, the freeing of the diplomats seized when Mosul fell to Isis on 10 June raises fresh questions about the relationship between the Turkish government and Isis. The Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan says the release is the result of a covert operation by Turkish intelligence that must remain a secret.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ad-following-surprise-release-of-9747394.html

 
boyfalldown said:
Were the terrorists who committed Friday evening's horrors all refugees or did they pretend to be to gain entry? Or were they,for the most part, already here?

That despite knowing this you believe, as you do that somehow it's the flood of people escaping Da'esh that's responsible shows exactly how you've been manipulated
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Do they all have to be refugees for it to be very concerning? You seem to be dealing in absolutes, I'm not. We don't know how many jihadists have used this route or where they are now and given the free movement of people in the EU that is worrying. The only thing being manipulated is our misplaced goodwill by IS terrorists.
 
the black fox said:
hmmmmm i wonder how my aunt felt when the germans dropped the bombs that demolished her house she sure as hell never asked the nazis to bomb her,but i do believe my my uncle had a smile on his face over hamburg and dresden .you o.k with that .
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No-one should take joy in dropping bombs that will probably take innocent life.

That bombing was to cripple a large war machine, and was the appropriate response to what would have amounted to a full scale invasion.

cambsno said:
Don't disagree, BUT, what is the answer. The more this goes on the more I think a full scale attack of some kind is needed.

There will not be a pain free solution and while different think about 1944 when we went into France and Holland. Many innocents killed but it meant they were free from tyranny.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree that something needs to happen, but as has been said before in this thread if we don't learn from our mistakes we are destined to repeat them. Going up against armies such as we did against the nazi occupation is a different ballpark to what we would face in syria and iraq.
 
poacher said:
They want to join the EU as well.


  • Monday 22 September 2014
Turkey accused of colluding with Isis to oppose Syrian Kurds and Assad following surprise release of 49 hostages
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Another example of how complicated the situation is out there. We tend to think in terms of countries and groups and forget that there are sectarian lines that intersect all of them and spin everything into a much more complex web of alliances. Personally, I can barely keep up with it all. Is Putin our friend this morning, or just a friend-of-a-friend? Assad has just been described on the radio as, "not too bad". Compared to all the other hideous leaders in the middle east. He'll probably be our BFF next week.
 
andy700 said:
I think that we should expel them from NATO.
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you'd choose to expel noe of the few Islamic countries with a democracy? One of NATO's largest standing armies and the country this is happening right next door to? What could possibly go wrong? Because of the activities of some elements in it. If nothing else having them vaguely on side illustrates some of the compromises will be made
 
FujiLove said:
Another example of how complicated the situation is out there. We tend to think in terms of countries and groups and forget that there are sectarian lines that intersect all of them and spin everything into a much more complex web of alliances. Personally, I can barely keep up with it all. Is Putin our friend this morning, or just a friend-of-a-friend? Assad has just been described on the radio as, "not too bad". Compared to all the other hideous leaders in the middle east. He'll probably be our BFF next week.
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This video should explain it.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNw2e0IAk0c
 
boyfalldown said:
you'd choose to expel noe of the few Islamic countries with a democracy? One of NATO's largest standing armies and the country this is happening right next door to? What could possibly go wrong? Because of the activities of some elements in it. If nothing else having them vaguely on side illustrates some of the compromises will be made
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Yes I would given their behaviour since this conflict started.
"One of NATO's largest standing armies" stood and watched (I suppose that is why they are called "standing"), whilst ISIL attacked the town/city of Kobane close to the Turkish border, and let ISIL slaughter thousands.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...ere-just-watch-kobane-201410481243432189.html

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApLyCou0dl0


Then, Turkey attack a Kurdish held town in Syria

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/27/turkey-shells-kurdish-held-village-in-syria

http://tribune.com.pk/story/927152/turkey-shells-kurdish-held-village-in-syria-monitor/

They are not even vaguely "on side", they are taking the same stance as Saudi Arabia and Qatar.
 
RichardtheSane said:
No-one should take joy in dropping bombs that will probably take innocent life.

That bombing was to cripple a large war machine, and was the appropriate response to what would have amounted to a full scale invasion.



I don't disagree that something needs to happen, but as has been said before in this thread if we don't learn from our mistakes we are destined to repeat them. Going up against armies such as we did against the nazi occupation is a different ballpark to what we would face in syria and iraq.
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It is, it's totally different. Germany had its border and was easy to isolate, but remember we did have to fight through begium, France, Holland etc...But no-one who is opposed to force seems to have a plan around it. As I said before I can't see beyond 3 options: do nothing, pussyfoot around with an odd strike or go in full scale.

Hindsight says we have made mistakes, at the time I was pro Iraq invasion but now think maybe saddam was not too bad after all.
 
andy700 said:
Yes I would given their behaviour since this conflict started.
"One of NATO's largest standing armies" stood and watched (I suppose that is why they are called "standing"), whilst ISIL attacked the town/city of Kobane close to the Turkish border, and let ISIL slaughter thousands.
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I said, along time ago on here, Turkey were more then happy to see Assad go. Its never been a happy relationship, and they supported the rebels, even if they turned out worse then what they replaced (as we now know they have). I'm not disagreeing with any of the comments about their (the Turks) behaviour. Or that of elements with their society.

I'm simply questioning is isolating them, and expelling them the way forward? Erdogan is taking the country in directions many Turks are unhappy about and although the military has always been very secular then I think pushing them out may well lead to them becoming the next Syria. I think the only way to defeat whatever you wish to call them Da'esh, ISIS or ISIL is going to involve some far bigger compromises then that one. Like it or not, just by an accident of geography Turkey is valuable to us in the region. I also think that(IMHO) ultimately the only way (& I know it won't be in my life time) some sort of stability will happen in the region is when it finally drags itself away from meritocracy, theocracy or whatever it is now and into a democracy. Therefore we should support democracy in the region, no matter how flawed
 
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boyfalldown said:
I'm simply questioning is isolating them, and expelling them the way forward? Erdogan is taking the country in directions many Turks are unhappy about and although the military has always been very secular then I think pushing them out may well lead to them becoming the next Syria. I think the only way to defeat whatever you wish to call them Da'esh, ISIS or ISIL is going to involve some far bigger compromises then that one. Like it or not, just by an accident of geography Turkey is valuable to us in the region. I also think that(IMHO) ultimately the only way (& I know it won't be in my life time) some sort of stability will happen in the region is when it finally drags itself away from meritocracy, theocracy or whatever it is now and into a democracy. Therefore we should support democracy in the region, no matter how flawed
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clearly the way ahead is to bomb the f*** out of turkey then invade - that will teach jonny foreigner to mess with us .. (admittedly it will also spread the IS fighting into another country , but that didnt stop us in iraq)
 
cambsno said:
As I said before I can't see beyond 3 options: do nothing, pussyfoot around with an odd strike or go in full scale.
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Those are the only options when all you consider is brute military force, but there are tons of other diplomatic, economic, strategic, political and intelligence-lead options. You just have to find the right balance and make sure the public can stomach it. Unfortunately, at times like these there is a tendency for people to want to go all-in, guns blazing and have some sort of revenge. It's hard to sell complex long term strategies to a public baying for blood, and nigh on impossible when that strategy can't be revealed to the enemy. What we see happening and what's really happening is often completely different.
 
FujiLove said:
Another example of how complicated the situation is out there. We tend to think in terms of countries and groups and forget that there are sectarian lines that intersect all of them and spin everything into a much more complex web of alliances. Personally, I can barely keep up with it all. Is Putin our friend this morning, or just a friend-of-a-friend? Assad has just been described on the radio as, "not too bad". Compared to all the other hideous leaders in the middle east. He'll probably be our BFF next week.
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The short version is that everyone is fighting everyone else - its not like a football match with clearly defined sides and a clear rulebook - it more like a bar fight

(in martial terms it is more similar to the balkan confilct than it is to a clearly defined war like big mistake number 2 )
 
FujiLove said:
Those are the only options when all you consider is brute military force, but there are tons of other diplomatic, economic, strategic, political and intelligence-lead options. You just have to find the right balance and make sure the public can stomach it. Unfortunately, at times like these there is a tendency for people to want to go all-in, guns blazing and have some sort of revenge. It's hard to sell complex long term strategies to a public baying for blood, and nigh on impossible when that strategy can't be revealed to the enemy. What we see happening and what's really happening is often completely different.
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I think you are right. Sitting around the table and having a cup of tea, biscuit etc is so much more civilised. Maybe we can even share the flying pig that will get us there?
 
dejongj said:
Maybe we can even share the flying pig that will get us there?
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I suspect that might not go over too well in muslim circles - best to use a flying horse
 
viv1969 said:
We can call it the first diplomatic compromise :LOL:
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Bacon rolls for lunch at an executive meeting never fails to get them on side (y)
 
Cobra said:
Bacon rolls for lunch at an executive meeting never fails to get them on side (y)
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Washed down with a nice cold beer? :-)
 
viv1969 said:
Washed down with a nice cold beer? :)
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Don't be a heathen, Coffee at lunch time..............

, beer after the meetings concluded :D
 
Cobra said:
Don't be a heathen, Coffee at lunch time..............

, beer after the meetings concluded :D
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b****r.
I thought we'd crack out the Cognac after :(
 
Laudrup said:
Lots of civilians die if the Islamic State remain and we will come under attack even more if they are given appeasement. Our security should be our number one priority and that means attacking them there.
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That means attacking islamic state there - it definitely doesnt mean killing shedloads of innocent civillians who just happen to be in the way .... as i said above that is the vietnam solution , and we all know how well that worked for the US
 
Cobra said:
Bacon rolls for lunch at an executive meeting never fails to get them on side (y)
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"It may be unclean but it tastes so good" said the IS delegate
 
Lol we may as well all get naked and enjoy an orgy :)

Ps. For the avoidance of doubt, the "flying pig" reference was in relation to a reality check, not intended to insult anyone.
 
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