Shaddowing a professional

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Ffione

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Hi there I am new to this forum and would just like to ask a quick question. :)

I am interested in wedding photography and have been asked by a couple of friends to do their wedding pictures next year. I have done the photos for a friends wedding before and they were really pleased with the results. I am aso thinking of starting doing weddings as a hobby but i think i need some more experience before i can charge people for my services.

I live in Manchester in the North West and i have my own transport and camera. I am looking for someone to shaddow at a couple of weddings just to get the feel of things. I have rung around a few local photographers and none of them are willing to let me shaddow them, one of them wanted £400 for the privelage!!

Thank you for your advice, any help would be much appriciated.:help:
 
Welcome to the forum. I am sure you'll get some replies soon.

The photographer in question probably didn't think he/she should be the one showing you the ropes, only to find they may well be competing for business in a few months time.

Maybe you should serve an apprenticeship with a particular photographer for a longer period, possibly free of charge, so he can get some value from you before you set up on your own?
 
You'll struggle to find anyone local who's willing to let you shadow, afterall why would you offer free training and experience to someone who will be you rival after a few weeks. Not exactly good business practice.

You maybe better off approaching photographers along way away as they are less likely to consider you a future competitor, I would also try and pitch it as a second dhooter arrangment where they get the benefit from any good shots you take. That way there is something in it for both of you which may well be more appealing.
 
Thank you for the responses. I didnt actually tell them that i was interested in starting up myself because i realised that they wouldnt want the competition. I am more than willing to let my pictures be used free of charge and i wouldnt mind serving an apprentiship of some sort.

I am willing to travel a couple of hours to get some experience. So if anyone is shooting any weddings or knows anyone who is....... :)
 
Ffione said:
Thank you for the responses. I didnt actually tell them that i was interested in starting up myself because i realised that they wouldnt want the competition.
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No-one is daft enough to not realise you have ambitions to being a Pro - and thus if you are local to them, you are aiming at being a competitor of theirs so of course they won't want you coming along

£400 seems more than reasonable too for such immediate & intense on-the-job training as it's also common to attend £100+ per day seminars where there are 20 or more of you gaining an insight, meaning the tog is charging at £2,000 a day or more for their training

We're within 2 hours of you, and I wouldn't want you along either without paying a good amount of money - why would I otherwise?

If you're serious about this as a business, then invest in yourself - getting some training even if it means paying such as this chap for it (if he's any good that is) is well worth it IMO

DD
 
Many thanks for the response DD. Now you put it like that I am sure that they knew what my true intentions were!

I was unaware that things like that existed where you pay money to do some on the job training.

Would you consider me coming along with you for a session or two then? If you would be interested in doing this please could you email me at ruth.singleton@hotmail.com with some prices and what you would be doing throughout the day. I have just had a look at your website and i can see you are about an hour away. Thanks again for your response, any furthur ideas would be appriciated.
 
Ffione said:
Many thanks for the response DD. Now you put it like that I am sure that they knew what my true intentions were!

I was unaware that things like that existed where you pay money to do some on the job training.

Would you consider me coming along with you for a session or two then? If you would be interested in doing this please could you email me at ruth.singleton@hotmail.com with some prices and what you would be doing throughout the day. I have just had a look at your website and i can see you are about an hour away. Thanks again for your response, any furthur ideas would be appriciated.
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Hi Ruth

Just re-read my response and thought it a little curt - if you read it so, soz

I already have an assistant 2nd photographer, so another one would seem like overkill methinks!

Just because most will say NO doesn't mean you should stop trying if you're really serious, but you'd need to show a highly competent portfolio (obviously of people mostly though not Weddings) to get most to let you tag along (paid or unpaid) - you don't appear to have any photos at all on TP as yet, so posting 20-30+ really good ones must be a first aim for you to gain any credibility

If you were coming to me, you'd have to prove you can use a flash properly, shoot backlit subjects and show some good fun candid types shots (could be of your own family the lot of them)

What you, everyone, really needs is a long/hard insight into the 'Business of Wedding Photography' - of which taking the photos is just one small-ish part; that's why I suggest everyone should join such as SWPP, MPA and aim for their basic qualifications ASAP & attend as many Seminars as you can (aside from reading everything too). Lots of great togs don't have any qualifications, but if you're trying to impress anyone, then if you have some and the other tog doesn't you have an 'edge'

:thumbs:

Good luck

DD
 
Many thanks for the quick responses!! Dont worry, i am coming into this with absolutly no idea so getting these wake up calls is good!

I will have to get myself a portfolio sorted then and see if I can get some onto this site as well so that peple can see them.

I am currently studying accounts as well as working and this course finishes next June so although i would like to do a course now i know that i havent got the time. I have found a course thati would like to have a go at that should give me a good grounding: http://www.thephotographyinstitute.co.uk/index.cfm?content=aboutthecourse
What do you think?

Sorry to be a dunce again but could you expand the abriviations SWPP, MPA and the qualification ASAP! :bang:

I will keep looking and see if there is someone that i can get some experience with.
 
I am no expert in the U.K. wedding tog market but down here there are about 450 "wedding togs" in a metropole of no more than 1.5 - 2 million people and that is way too many.

BUT...

Very few make a living out of wedding photography only and of them very few are really good. Factor that in with our current economic climate and the fact that there are ultimately very few folks down here who are willing to pay good money AND who can appreciate the difference between good and great wedding pics...

Where I charge ZAR 4K - 5K ( 270 - 340 GBP equivalent) I could move to Gauteng Johannesburg / Pretoria and charge more than double that...the guys up there who are really good charge anything from ZAR 15K - 25K.

To bring all of this to a point, my opinion is that no good pro should feel threatened by newcomers as your service and style should be what sets you apart from others, pro or otherwise.

my 2c worth anyway...:thumbs:
 
antonroland said:
To bring all of this to a point, my opinion is that no good pro should feel threatened by newcomers as your service and style should be what sets you apart from others, pro or otherwise.
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Sorry but I just can't see the business logic in that. No matter what your business is you should be concerned and feel threatened by another similar businesses opening up in direct competiton to you. Even if you service and style are better than the new startup you still risk loosing business to them which will have an impact on your bottom line. Being concerned and threatened is the natural and correct attitude and is the thing that triggers your response which should be too defend your turf. If I ran a chippy and someone applied for planning permission to open one over the road I'd object even If I did think my chips were the best in the land.
 
antonroland said:
my opinion is that no good pro should feel threatened by newcomers as your service and style should be what sets you apart from others, pro or otherwise.
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The problem is not everyone is so well established as to be a 'good pro', and by that I mean having no worries over where the next income is coming from rather than being a lovely chap(ess) or a great photographer. I've known a couple of great togs who can't make a living as a tog :eek:

Imagine you're a Plumber, Painter & Decorator, Mechanic, whatever... eeking a living within your chosen market area with a capped population (and therefore customer) base

Now imagine some new Plumbers, etc. move in

You have a Supply & Demand problem, where there is potential for oversupply

To gain a market foothold, the new Plumber (whatever) isn't going to charge more are they? There are going to undercut you. The one-off customer, who doesn't know a u-bend from a split-washer will go with the cheaper guy - cos he's cheap. If you aren't already so well established your clients are always banging on your more expensive door, then you are going to cut fees to keep business coming in. To do so may mean cutting your own costs and a reduction in quality may result, which overall will give a negative impact too

Now the same amount of work is split between more suppliers, and everyone is earning less or not enough. Someone goes bust and the Supply/Demand equation moves in favour of those who survive... until another one moves in

Go ask any local Plumber (whatever) to you if he feels his service & style sets him apart enough to withstand a new competitor, and if he'd help train him too, and let us know his thoughts on it :thinking:

There's a huge Co-op supermarket near me, it's been there donkey's years. Tesco has built a supermarket next door to it. There are no more people living in that small town, but Tesco's is always busy - so where do those customers come from? Could it be the established Co-op? With it's long history of service & style that's suffering? Damn right it is. So now there's a price war, which Co-op will lose :(

To not really 'care' about new competition locally to you to need a niche market to demand a high price from a market that's price insensitive, as a tog that's a very difficult position to attain

Just my 2p rolling back at yer :D

DD
 
Ffione said:
Sorry to be a dunce again but could you expand the abriviations SWPP, MPA and the qualification ASAP! :bang:
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SWPP = Society of Wedding & Portrait Photographers

MPA - Master Photographers Association

Never heard of the 'Institute' you mention dear, but ask yourself if it's trying to make you into a 'Photographer' or a 'Professional Photographer' - they are NOT the same thing by any means. The above two focus on you being a Pro as well as offering technique, etc. training and forums for like-minded (and new) Pros to swap ideas, stories and help

Same as on here really - just more 'money & business' orientated

HTH

DD
 
DiddyDave said:
Go ask any local Plumber (whatever) to you if he feels his service & style sets him apart enough to withstand a new competitor, and if he'd help train him too, and let us know his thoughts on it :thinking:

There's a huge Co-op supermarket near me, it's been there donkey's years. Tesco has built a supermarket next door to it. There are no more people living in that small town, but Tesco's is always busy - so where do those customers come from? Could it be the established Co-op? With it's long history of service & style that's suffering? Damn right it is. So now there's a price war, which Co-op will lose :(

To not really 'care' about new competition locally to you to need a niche market to demand a high price from a market that's price insensitive, as a tog that's a very difficult position to attain

DD
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Plumbers, supermarkets and chip shops all supply a product with little differentiation. Where photography is concerned, if you shoot the same stuff and offer the same product as everyone else then you'll be in this market - competing on price as Dave has said.

Would a Mercedes dealer be concerned with a new Ford dealer opening up the road ? ... probably not. They sell the same basic product - cars - but someone in the market for a Merc is very unlikely to even consider a Ford as an alternative option.

With any product, if a customer has set themselves a budget of £X to spend on something then the likelihood is that they will not spend much less than £X and probably a little more.

So I also agree with Anton - an established photographer charging decent money will have little to fear from newcomers.

My advice to anyone considering trying to get into wedding photography at the moment - don't. The market is awash with newcomers competing with other on price, and in the current economic climate the people that will have less money to spend are the ones that were already shopping on price.
 
My point was aimed at those who are not 'Mercedes' suppliers, that's the price insensitive market where money is always available

However, if there was a privateer 'Mercedes' garage opening close to the official one (not that they'd allow it - go with the analogy) then you can be your bottom dollar, pound or ZAR they'd be miffed - and don't forget the OP's question centred on that Merc dealer actually helping his competitor to open too

Photography is a retail business, not a service one

DD
 
DiddyDave said:
Photography is a retail business, not a service one
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Well, that really depends on how you market the business and what kind of client you want to attract, IMO.
 
I asked the same question several months ago and got the same answer.

No.

So I was fortunate that I did find a tog (friend of a friend) who lives about 40 miles away and was really generous in allowing me to act as a second shooter over the summer. I did a wedding for a friend as a first one solo and I'm doing a specific day's training on winter weddings as I'm doing another one in December.

TBH it's not exactly a flourishing market at the moment and if I consider doing it full time at all it will be on the end of a two year business plan that I will need to dovetail with my existing job which won't be easy.

I'm lucky enough to have a lot of good business contacts where I can also explore some commercial and architectural togging which I would also have to consider doing as earning a living from just weddings is not exactly going to make me rich.

(I absolutely demand to be kept in the manner to which I have become accustomed to) (joke btw!) :)
 
DiddyDave said:
Photography is a retail business, not a service one
DD
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IMO it's both - I sell my time and expertise (service) and stuff - albums, prints, CDs, etc (retail).

Stuff has a fairly fixed value and can only generate a certain amount of income, whereas the value of time and expertise is only capped by what people are willing to pay for it. Photographers that compete on price are failing to understand the second part.
 
antonroland said:
To bring all of this to a point, my opinion is that no good pro should feel threatened by newcomers as your service and style should be what sets you apart from others, pro or otherwise
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Maybe if your a really well known tog, like LaForet, Jarvis, etc, then you're name sells. But if you're 'just another' wedding tog, then you're probably being sold by word of mouth or pure luck that someone stumbled onto you. I found my (wedding) tog from a cousin who found him from another cousin, who heard from a friend. My video guy was suggested to me by my tog.

I didn't even open up the business directory.
 
pxl8 said:
Well, that really depends on how you market the business and what kind of client you want to attract, IMO.
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I'm wondering if you and WeddingHack misunderstood me on this point of Retail or Service

By...

A 'Retail' business (i.e. Wedding Photography) I meant where you sell something to someone largely as a one-off

A 'Service' business is where that same client keeps coming back on a regular basis for more product, you are 'servicing' the relationship

Unless your clients divorce at a far higher rather than mine :thinking: then I don't expect to see my clients for another Wedding anytime soon; so that part of our relationship is transactional = Retail

They may lead to an ongoing relationship in photography of some other aspect, but babies - kids - pets is still not a 'service' business, but a series of 'retail' transactions

A Service element to photography would be such as the housing tog to an Estate Agent

Anyway, that's what I meant by it - not that you (I, anyone) doesn't give the absolute best service you can for that transaction of a Wedding

OK???:shrug:

DD
 
Being a successful pro photographer is more about being good at business than it is about being about to take a good photo (essential but not the most important part). I would personally disagree with DD that photography is a retail business and suggest that it is actually a service business but that is probably down to how you define the two and it's not worth getting in to semantics. We both agree that it's a business (EDIT he beat me to providing his definition, it is different to mine - but still not worth arguing about)

I think that the current climate won't help you in getting direct experience as I suspect many togs are either already seeing a decline in average spend or will do soon and the numer of weddings per year is dropping (both first [where spend is higher] and remarriages [where spend is lower] are dropping). At the same time the barriers to entry are lowering so you are increasing the number of togs for a shrinking market, so those already estabilished are concerned.

Don't let this stop you if this is really what you want to do research will get you a long way as will the practice of your friends weddings. However, by the time you do your next wedding - ensure you have backup for every element of your kit, a kit failure reaulting in not being able to supply what you've promised will kill your business very quickly.
 
SimonTALM - see my definition above - then maybe you'll agree - or at least see what I meant by it

I can't see how any 'one-hit' sale (such as a Wedding) could ever be anything other than a retail transaction of a product that carries a high service level - rather than being a service in itself

:)

DD
 
DiddyDave said:
SimonTALM - see my definition above - then maybe you'll agree - or at least see what I meant by it

I can't see how any 'one-hit' sale (such as a Wedding) could ever be anything other than a retail transaction of a product that carries a high service level - rather than being a service in itself

:)

DD
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I suspect we think the same things and the service / retail arguement is a definition thing and as I said not worth continuing with IMO (at least not in this thread)

:)
 
I still disagree - retailers sell products, service businesses sell time & expertise.

I used to run a marketing services company - basically we handled the 'dirty end' of marketing campaigns - mail outs, packing promo items, etc. The company made it's money by selling the time and expertise of our employees.

Many companies we only dealt with once - did that make us a retailer ?

If you 'productise' a photography business, rather than viewing it as time + product you run the risk of seriously undervaluing your time - which is of course your most valuable asset.
 
Markk said:
Not necessarily. Maybe if your a really well known tog, like LaForet, Jarvis, etc, then you're name sells. But if you're 'just another' wedding tog, then you're probably being sold by word of mouth or pure luck that someone stumbled onto you. I found my (wedding) tog from a cousin who found him from another cousin, who heard from a friend. My video guy was suggested to me by my tog.

I didn't even open up the business directory.
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Which means they were well known...so was it Vince Laforet or Gary Fong??
 
I'm with Duncan, I see my business as a service but that's not to say there aren't photographers who are more retail orientated - Venture springs to mind.
 
Okay - we'll have to disagree on the definition then

I've worked in Law and with member companies within the Financial Services industry for 18 years and my definition essentially follows their definition, which is basically...

If someone does or is likely to buy something from you only once (even where it's a service like a Trust solution or Investment plan), then that's a Retail transaction

If you are offering to Service their account on an ongoing basis - then that's a Service based relationship which may have Retail transactions within it

Weddings can never be a Service relationship under this definition, and as I subscribe to this definition, I see Wedding Photography as a product that most couples buy only once - hence it's a Retail Transaction (and yes one with a service level within it, but it's once only)

This has hijacked the OP's thread, and she has gone 'quiet' or away - hopefully not because of us !!!

:thumbs:

DD
 
Yes, sorry Ffione, we'll shut up now. ;)
 
Im sat here reading intently! please continue, its all very interesting to me! Thanks everyone for replying, even if it is a little off the subject!
 
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