Setup question for you lighting specialists "UPDATED"

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stupar

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Ok to brief you first,
In my wifes nursery they do a mini graduation for the kids that will be leaving for primary school. When the kids get their little scroll they normally have their photo taken with their parents as a little keepsake.
In the past the person who took the photo's just used the pop up flash.
Unfortunately that person is of sick and a few of my wife's colleagues asked If I would take over, to which I have said yes.

Now, in my arsenal I have a flashgun and a softbox. I though about using these instead of pop up flash.
Because of the limited resources, when using the softbox and flashgun previously I have set it up to be directly in front and facing down at a 45 degree angle to the subject with the flash set on about 1/4 or 1/8 power (depending on the ambient light)
Is this the best bet to go with again given what I have?

The room the shots will be taken in has a high ceiling and no windows.
Worst case scenario is that there will also be no background, good case scenario is the photo's may be able to be taken using a wall as a backdrop.

I could potentially have access to another flashgun and have enough triggers to accomodate two light sources.

Any advice would be grateful appreciated.
 
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I'm totally unqualified to answer this (read, I have no experience at all) but I'd have thought either up high or level with the face off to one side with someone holding a reflector down low or across depending on where the flash is (to give some infill) the other side of camera would probably be best. Up high and in front, I'd be worried about shadows of the facial features. Could be totally wrong mind you. ;)

Do you have the chance to do some test shots in an evening for example?
 
Hi Stuart,

The first suggestion you made is a fair starting point, but the two gun approach will be better, even if they're just symmetric in positioning. Best one higher than the other to cause differentiation in the lighting, and the lower head should also be a little less regarding the output so as the higher softbox will become the keylight.
The reason for the higher "box" being the keylight is due to the fact we subconsciously expect the main light to be high, imitating the sun etc.

Backgrounds? If non available, shorten your depth of field but drag your shutter if there are interesting highlights. Also be aware of the ambient lighting within that background. If it's lit with tungsten, then gel your flashes to match, otherwise your subjects will be correctly lit but the background will have an orange cast. Obviously, you would set your white balance accordingly.

Where will you find gels easily?
http://www.flashgels.co.uk

If you are stuck with a single flash and box, see if you can make use of a white wall to use as bounce, and therefore add fill. That way you can move your flash further to the side, rather than on-axis
 
Thanks for that. Unfortunately I won't have access before the actual event other than a couple of hours before hand.
I've been try out a few setups in the house just to see what works and what doesn't.
Never gave the reflector a thought, would have to go out and buy one.
What's an ideal distance to position the softbox from the subject?
 
Michael Sewell said:
Hi Stuart,

The first suggestion you made is a fair starting point, but the two gun approach will be better, even if they're just symmetric in positioning. Best one higher than the other to cause differentiation in the lighting, and the lower head should also be a little less regarding the output so as the higher softbox will become the keylight.
The reason for the higher "box" being the keylight is due to the fact we subconsciously expect the main light to be high, imitating the sun etc.

Backgrounds? If non available, shorten your depth of field but drag your shutter if there are interesting highlights. Also be aware of the ambient lighting within that background. If it's lit with tungsten, then gel your flashes to match, otherwise your subjects will be correctly lit but the background will have an orange cast. Obviously, you would set your white balance accordingly.

Where will you find gels easily?
http://www.flashgels.co.uk

If you are stuck with a single flash and box, see if you can make use of a white wall to use as bounce, and therefore add fill. That way you can move your flash further to the side, rather than on-axis
Click to expand...

Cheers mike, I think I see what your getting at. So in your last paragraph are you suggesting having the softbox at roughly 45 degrees to the subject so that some light spills on to the background?
 
stupar said:
Never gave the reflector a thought, would have to go out and buy one.
Click to expand...
Pretty cheap off e-bay (think I paid about £10 delivered).
 
Super simple way - softbox just above eye level and just to one side of the camera. 45 degrees is too much anyway IMHO and would require much more careful positioning of the subject/s. Big white reflector on the other side.

Simple, foolproof, will work for everyone and look pretty good. Drag the shutter as necessary to suit the background.
 
HoppyUK said:
Super simple way - softbox just above eye level and just to one side of the camera. 45 degrees is too much anyway IMHO and would require much more careful positioning of the subject/s. Big white reflector on the other side.

Simple, foolproof, will work for everyone and look pretty good. Drag the shutter as necessary to suit the background.
Click to expand...

Ok are you meaning something like this then?
child_portraits_studioex3_2010__hero.jpg

Dragging the shutter - is that when you set the shutter speed at anything below the max sync speed to alter the ambient exposure?
So for example rather than shoot with manual flash at 1/250 I could go down to 1/60 etc.
I presume shutter dragging is dependant upon the background but also individual preference for look?
 
That lighting arrangement will work. Pretty much anything will work for young kids in fact, because they have perfect features and perfect skin, so it isn't anywhere near as critical as when lighting adults, who may have fat or thin faces, high or low cheekbones and so on.

'Dragging the shutter' is a horrible Amercanism that seems to have crept into our language and yes, it means using a longer shutter speed than is strictly necessary, The longer (slower) the shutter speed, the more effect the ambient light will have, and vice versa. The downside is that camera shake and/or subject movement can mean a blurred image, so it needs to be kept to a reasonable level.
 
Garry Edwards said:
That lighting arrangement will work. Pretty much anything will work for young kids in fact, because they have perfect features and perfect skin, so it isn't anywhere near as critical as when lighting adults, who may have fat or thin faces, high or low cheekbones and so on.

'Dragging the shutter' is a horrible Amercanism that seems to have crept into our language and yes, it means using a longer shutter speed than is strictly necessary, The longer (slower) the shutter speed, the more effect the ambient light will have, and vice versa. The downside is that camera shake and/or subject movement can mean a blurred image, so it needs to be kept to a reasonable level.
Click to expand...

Ah typical America! Is slow sync another term for it then?

So a good example then is shooting at 1/250, f5.6, 400ISO could give a very dark background whilst the flash would light the subject
whereas shooting at 1/60, f5.6, 400ISO will allow the background to show more (because the camera is letting in ambient light) but the flash is still lighting the subject

I presume shooting around the 1/60 mark then the flash from the softbox should still be enough to freeze any motion in the subject
 
Yes, pretty much, but not quite like the diagram.

Look at the diagram, and it's clear that the subjects on the right, turned inwards as they are, are only going to get the mainlight on half their faces. This is the problem with subjects that are likely to move around, and notice that they're not posed like that in the actual photo.

If you can control the subject positioning, you can do more with the light, if you want to, but for what you're proposing I would suggest that is both undesirable and much more difficult. The mums will not thank you for any fancy lighting effects, they will just think that with your creative shadows you've messed up. They want nice clear, bright, happy smiling faces, generously lit with a nice sparkle in the eyes.

Move the light closer to the camera, and I would move the reflector further forward closer to the subject for more benefit. Positioning reflectors is more difficult without a modelling light. Remember angle of incidence equals angle of reflection - light bounces off a reflector at the same angle it strikes it, like a snooker ball off the cushion. I suggested a white reflector above because I prefer the slightly softer effect and they are also much less sensitive to positioning - both as a result of the more diffusing effect of the surface.

Dragging the shutter is slowing it down below max x-sync as you say. It you can't control the background, you can at least go someway to controlling the brightness of it with shutter speed. Drag it too low though, and you'll get ambient blurring on the main subject too. Can't you find a decent background? Just a plain bit of wall might do.

One thing to watch, if you're shooting quite close you may have less depth of field than you expect. Unless you shoot at f/11 or something quite high, focus on the eyes and get mum and nipper's faces approximately the same distance from the camera.

Edfit: crossed post with above. Yes, slow sync is another term for dragging, but it's also used to describe ambient light photography, such as 'drag landscapes' (calm down Garry! :D) which basically means running a longer shutter speed to show some movement blur. Wavy trees and branches, long grass etc, maybe adding an ND filter to get it. In that sense it is used to control movement, whereas slow-sync is used to control exposure balance.
 
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Thanks for that, a good explanation that puts things into perspective.
The room I will be shooting in has no Windows so i think I should be able to bag a wall as a backdrop.
I take it that background or no background the softbox and reflector position will remain the same and the variables will be in the camera settings
 
stupar said:
Thanks for that, a good explanation that puts things into perspective.
The room I will be shooting in has no Windows so i think I should be able to bag a wall as a backdrop.
I take it that background or no background the softbox and reflector position will remain the same and the variables will be in the camera settings
Click to expand...

If there's a nice bit of wall, maybe try this.

Move the subjects a bit away from it. That will help prevent shadows, but it will go dark as the flash light falls off. Put your other flash gun behind the subject and point it lower down at the wall, adjusting the power down to give a nice graduated effect. Check the exposure balance on the LCD.

If you try to bring the background up with ambient dragging, given that it's artificial you could run into colour balance problems as well as blurring. If the wall is an unsuitable colour, gel the flash and you can have it pretty much any colour you like. The cellophane wrappers from a box of Quality Street are handy for this ;) Suggest a trial run :D
 
stupar said:
Cheers mike, I think I see what your getting at. So in your last paragraph are you suggesting having the softbox at roughly 45 degrees to the subject so that some light spills on to the background?
Click to expand...

Exactly. You are in fact aiming the light a little towards the wall side of your subject, and the white wall will help fill the shadow side. Ensure you use a white wall though, as any other colour can contaminate the reflected light.

Unfortunately, with no access till the day, this may be ruled out if the wall is a strong colour, or you are required to set up in an open space.
 
HoppyUK said:
Super simple way - softbox just above eye level and just to one side of the camera. 45 degrees is too much anyway IMHO and would require much more careful positioning of the subject/s. Big white reflector on the other side.

Simple, foolproof, will work for everyone and look pretty good. Drag the shutter as necessary to suit the background.
Click to expand...

Richard has basically summed it up rather eloquently :thumbs:
 
Thanks Michael :)

Final comment - recycle times. When you see professionals doing this kind of work, the technical side is all taken care of. It's a given. They concentrate on the subject, a bit of banter, nice atmosphere, and when the pose/expression is right (you can usually see it coming as the shoot evolves) they'll fire off a load of frames quickly. When you look at them on the PC, they will all be surprisingly different especially with two subjects in shot, and one will be the winner.

If your flashgun is taking several seconds to recharge, you'll miss it - and look like an amateur. Avoid that by turning the flash down, upping the ISO and/or lowering the f/number. Just one stop halves the flash output and roughly halves the recycle time. Use fresh batteries and always have plenty of spares.
 
Andy, Richard, Michael and Garry - thank you all for your time and knowledge.

Tonight I'm going to make up a lighting diagram (using studio buddy on android)
I will post it up on here taking into account the information you have kindly passed on and see what you think.

Thanks again! :thumbs:
 
Ok using studio buddy I came up with this little diagram based on the you all gave me for a simple setup.
As far as I can gather this will work with or without a background however if there is a suitable background I could add a second speedlite facing towards it.
5804499999_7f1f27f341_z_d.jpg
 
Yes, looks about right.

Except that what I imagined to be mother and small child has now become three people, ie much bigger subject, and your softbox is only 16x16, hopefully inches and not cms, and that's pretty small.

Group them closely, as you should anyway, aim the softbox right in the middle, and angle the reflector carefully so it's working to the max. Maybe start by getting the subjects to stand square to the light, then turn their heads towards the camera.
 
Well I did say parents so that would include mother and father lol. Sadly studio buddy does not accommodate different size people so what I have shown is just an idea not a true representation.

Yeah sadly my softbox is only a small one at 16 x 16 inches but it has to be better than a bare flashgun.
 
Ok folks,
A little update on the situation. The room I will be shooting in has no windows, white walls, green carpet and high ceiling.
I've managed to organise a pre shoot visit so I can see the layout, but it looks like the wall will suffice as a background.
I think I'm going to go with the softbox as the key light and the 32 inch reflector as fill in.
As you know my softbox is only 15 inches square, so on the small side. I wonder if a 60cm box albeit still small would be more beneficial given that my subject will contain up to three people?
 
stupar said:
Ok folks,
A little update on the situation. The room I will be shooting in has no windows, white walls, green carpet and high ceiling.
I've managed to organise a pre shoot visit so I can see the layout, but it looks like the wall will suffice as a background.
I think I'm going to go with the softbox as the key light and the 32 inch reflector as fill in.
As you know my softbox is only 15 inches square, so on the small side. I wonder if a 60cm box albeit still small would be more beneficial given that my subject will contain up to three people?
Click to expand...

Yes, 60x60 is more than double the size. Makes positioning easier, and spreads the light more evenly over a larger area :thumbs:
 
Depending on the configuration of the room another option would be to consider the wall and/or ceilings as a giant soft-box by bouncing a flash off it/them. If the wall behind you and ceiling above is white then if you bounce backwards you have a giant "soft-box" aiming forward. You still have the option to use your smaller box and 2nd flash as a fill light and of course the reflector as well, perhaps even your pop up to get some catch lights.

I'm not saying this is the ideal set up as the rest of the guys have already described the best way of doing it. I'm just suggesting it as something to have in your back pocket as an option just in case the other doesn't work out too good because of the size of the box and number of people.

Hope it goes well
 
Don't sweat it, seriously, after literally one or two shots you will have this nailed.
 
HoppyUK said:
Yes, 60x60 is more than double the size. Makes positioning easier, and spreads the light more evenly over a larger area :thumbs:
Click to expand...

Cheers

MnM said:
Depending on the configuration of the room another option would be to consider the wall and/or ceilings as a giant soft-box by bouncing a flash off it/them. If the wall behind you and ceiling above is white then if you bounce backwards you have a giant "soft-box" aiming forward. You still have the option to use your smaller box and 2nd flash as a fill light and of course the reflector as well, perhaps even your pop up to get some catch lights.

I'm not saying this is the ideal set up as the rest of the guys have already described the best way of doing it. I'm just suggesting it as something to have in your back pocket as an option just in case the other doesn't work out too good because of the size of the box and number of people.

Hope it goes well
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. Always handy to have a contingency in place

Mahoneyd187 said:
Don't sweat it, seriously, after literally one or two shots you will have this nailed.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I think it will be ok. Like I say I've done a few test setups in the house and will have time to do a test on site, Just wanted to iron out a few technicalities.
 
Hi
I have little experience but have you tried an umbrella, can give wider spread (also cheapish for size), as others have shown and put the 580 ex on camera(or just use onboard flash) with FEC dialed down a step or two and use as a fill.
 
Ok guys just a quick update on this.
The shoot was today and it was a total success. Once I was there I found out that I had the choice of bouncing the flash of the ceiling or using the softbox.

In the end I opted for the softbox for something new to me and a good way to learn. I took on board your advice and set up with the softbox immediately camera right just above eye level pointing down ever so slightly. On the left I had my glamorous assistant (a.k.a the wife) hold a white reflector for some fill in.

Upon reflection it is a very simple set up. My only concern was the white wall back drop which had a few marks on it, nothing that can't be cloned.
My settings for the shoot ended up being -
Shutter 1/50
Aperture f4
ISO 500
Flash power 1/16
Probably not settings most folk would use but it worked and I enjoyed the experience. So once again I thank you all that tool time to comment for your assistance.
 
stupar said:
Ok guys just a quick update on this.
The shoot was today and it was a total success. Once I was there I found out that I had the choice of bouncing the flash of the ceiling or using the softbox.

In the end I opted for the softbox for something new to me and a good way to learn. I took on board your advice and set up with the softbox immediately camera right just above eye level pointing down ever so slightly. On the left I had my glamorous assistant (a.k.a the wife) hold a white reflector for some fill in.

Upon reflection it is a very simple set up. My only concern was the white wall back drop which had a few marks on it, nothing that can't be cloned.
My settings for the shoot ended up being -
Shutter 1/50
Aperture f4
ISO 500
Flash power 1/16
Probably not settings most folk would use but it worked and I enjoyed the experience. So once again I thank you all that tool time to comment for your assistance.
Click to expand...

Oh good :) Thanks for the update. Would be nice to see a couple of pics if you are able to post them.

Just a couple of comments really on your settings. You may have your reasons of course, but why 1/50sec? You're using flash, so provided you stay under your max x-sync that makes no difference to the flash exposure. Unless you want to introduce some ambient light exposure in there, dropping down to a longer speed than necessary just runs the risk of any ambient blurring spoling things.

F/4 is quite low. Okay for solo portaits, but maybe not enough depth of field for two or three people.

ISO500 is also probably okay, but you'd get better quality at a lower setting.

1/16th power - why so low? Is this what's driving your other camera settings? You'd get plenty fast enough recycling at say 1/4, and that's two stops more exposure to play with, to raise the f/number and/or drop the ISO.
 
Cheers hoppy. Unfortunately I can't post any up here as I don't have consent from the parents and with it being kids I don't want to run the risk.
The shutter speed was that that low as you say to accommodate a better ambient exposure. Higher speeds caused the background to go very dark and with the solo child shots their black gown and mortar boards would have blended in to much. For future ref I will look at a 2nd flash for back drop lighting.
The aperture was chosen to prevent a few marks and details on the wall from not show in the shot that probably would have at f8 also when photographing the child and their family they all managed to stand in a line that put them on the same focal plane (think that's the right term).
Because of the aperture setting above them that kind of explains the reason behind the flash power.

All in all it was good and I have come away having learnt new things and a better idea of what I would do next time if in the same situation.
Next time I would like to try the same again but with a 2nd flash gel'd up and pointing at the wall. Think that would have worked well.
 
^^^ That all makes perfect sense. Good trick with the shutter speed when you have ambient light about, floating it to change the brightness of the background while the dominant flash exposure is relatively unaffected :thumbs:

Glad it worked out.
 
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