Second Shooters at Weddings

johnb

johnb

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We have had 3 weddings this year including my daughters last weekend & I have noticed at each one the second shooter was using mid-range kit ( by that I mean that it wasn't pro level, no snobbery intended) but they were all using on board flash which I found a little strange. All of the main photographers were professional photographers i.e. made their living from photography & were very competent but the use of on board flash by the second shooters surprised me.

Is this normal?

I had a long chat & good rapport with the photographers at my daughters but didn't want to go into Uncle Bob/geek mode
 
I would say that is about right for 2nd shooters, you will get some that have all the kit but mainly they are learning the ropes so are not quite there yet with their kit or skill.

I can't see many paying out of all that expensive kit and being happy with 2nd shooter pay.
 
snigg said:
I would say that is about right for 2nd shooters, you will get some that have all the kit but mainly they are learning the ropes so are not quite there yet with their kit or skill.

I can't see many paying out of all that expensive kit and being happy with 2nd shooter pay.
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this

unless of course the client is well enough off to pay for a 'double header' (ie two or more pro's working together)

(saying that I'd want a second shooter to have a decent flash gun - if only a nissin/youngonou/jessops chinese knock off - )
 
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I always tried to buy the closest kit to what other wedding photographers where using, ok I did have to go for a sigma 70-200 instead of a canon but just could not cover the cost. I thought if my kit was not up to the job, no photographer would not give me a chance to second for them.
 
Phil Young said:
That's really surprising...

I am just getting into weddings but that does surprise me.

I wouldn't have expected 2nd shooters to have pro bodies, but pop up flash!? ...gosh.
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I was at a wedding a while back (as a guest) where the 'pro' and i'm using that term loosely - was shooting a with a D40x , pop up flash and kit lens :eek:

I don't usually uncle bob both because its disrespectful , and also because i'd rather be getting lashed and dancing on the tables - but in this instance I went and grabbed my standby kit out of the boot of the car and made sure that i'd got all the major shots - plus nabbing the B&G for a bridal walk (which the 'pro' didnt bother with.

I was very glad I did (despite a certain ammount of tutting from the alledged pro) because their shots were truly and gutwrenchingly awful - burnt whites, things growing out heads, red eye , you name it
 
sister in law had a "pro" use a d50 kit lens and that was it. the pictures were at best horrible , his second didn't take any picture as he didn't understand the camera.
 
gumbo-67 said:
sister in law had a "pro" use a d50 kit lens and that was it. the pictures were at best horrible , his second didn't take any picture as he didn't understand the camera.
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this kind of story is increasingly common and really boils my arse - there are too many walter mitty types who thing that just buying a camera makes them a photographer (sure it does.. just like buying a guitar makes you a musician)
 
Dont people do their research before taking 2nd shooters? I always take on pro's as 2nd shooter and 2nd shoot for other pro's in return. That means pro kit, and a style of photography thats close to my own - whats the point of having a 2nd shooter if their images are totally inconsistent with yours?
 
big soft moose said:
this kind of story is increasingly common and really boils my arse - there are too many walter mitty types who thing that just buying a camera makes them a photographer (sure it does.. just like buying a guitar makes you a musician)
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I popped up to the local red kite feeding site yesterday afternoon to test a Canon MKIII 2x converter with my 5DMKIII and 70-200 L... One woman asked me if I was a professional bird photographer because of the kit I was carrying! It always reminds me of that quote about the photographer complementing someone about how the great meal they'd had was probably because they'd had a great cooker! :shrug:

Back on topic... My OH is my second shooter for weddings. She generally concentrates on candids and detail shots because she frequently sees things in a different way which leaves me to concentrate on the main photography. She generally uses her 1000D with a 430EXII and whichever of my lenses she needs. Image quality isn't necessarily dictated by the kit you have but by the way you use it. If the second shooter using the pop-up flash was getting the right results, it shouldn't matter how they were obtained! :)
 
Spiritflier said:
I popped up to the local red kite feeding site yesterday afternoon to test a Canon MKIII 2x converter with my 5DMKIII and 70-200 L... One woman asked me if I was a professional bird photographer because of the kit I was carrying! It always reminds me of that quote about the photographer complementing someone about how the great meal they'd had was probably because they'd had a great cooker! :shrug:

Back on topic... My OH is my second shooter for weddings. She generally concentrates on candids and detail shots because she frequently sees things in a different way which leaves me to concentrate on the main photography. She generally uses her 1000D with a 430EXII and whichever of my lenses she needs. Image quality isn't necessarily dictated by the kit you have but by the way you use it. If the second shooter using the pop-up flash was getting the right results, it shouldn't matter how they were obtained! :)
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Fair comment however the pop up flash was being used in dark areas eg walking in with the bride before the" grand entrance". The flash must have given harsh light in the dark corridor. I am looking forward to the pics as I believe that the pro tog herself was a good choice
 
I'm looking for a 2nd for a wedding at the moment. There's no money in it, so I'm not expecting anything like pro kit, but so far 3 out of 4 applicants don't even have a fast 50mm or a Chinese flashgun between them.
 
Spiritflier said:
Back on topic... My OH is my second shooter for weddings. She generally concentrates on candids and detail shots because she frequently sees things in a different way which leaves me to concentrate on the main photography. She generally uses her 1000D with a 430EXII and whichever of my lenses she needs. Image quality isn't necessarily dictated by the kit you have but by the way you use it. If the second shooter using the pop-up flash was getting the right results, it shouldn't matter how they were obtained! :)
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Trouble is that (except in very skilled hands) those two things tend to be mutually exclusive , because you can't bounce pop up flash (not easily anyway - I once made a bouncer for one out of card and gaffa tape when both my flash guns died towards the end of a very long day), nor can you alter its power - thus its generally a recipe for straight on flash at full power with minimal range - which close up leads to red eye and high contrast (and often over flashed burnt whites), and at longer ranges causes underxposed shots.

I'm not a gear snob by any means (although I often hire a 5D2 for weddings I have shot them sucessfully with a 40D, 450D or even 20D ) but if a shooter is going to use flash then getting a poseable head flash gun is pretty much essential (hence why you're missus has prioritised getting a 430ex2) - if they don't have one/can't buy one they'd be better off learning to use reflectors and natural light.
 
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When seconding, I am there to take pressure of the main photographer and try to 2nd guess him. If he tells me do do something you got to get it done, even where to the point I politely asked the waiting staff who are finishing, the dinning room if its possible to leave just for a few mins so I can get some full rooms shots with and no staff in the shot. If the main photographer shoots long I go short and so on. You could manage with of the lower priced camera's while shooting outside but when it comes to the dark church shots then the iso is going to come into play. I thought when I was studying my HND photography I will get the best kit I could afford, as I,ve got to pay this student loan back when I finished I would say only three out of our class of twelve spent any money on new camera's or lenses. It was in my best interest to do this as I wanted to move into wedding photography once my HND was finished. To be honest looking back the best part of the HND was getting the loan to buy more gear and because I contacted photographers for 2nd and I got a chance because I said I was studying my HND. unless I wanted to go and and do my BA its not going to really help me in the real world as most want to see your photos not a piece of paper with you name on it. At the end of course exhibition most of the visitors where from other uni's and colleges and they where more interested in the Arty shots of volins and candles, then my style of portait and wedding photography.
 
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I see the second shooter option in the same way that film makers use multiple cameras on their sets.
at my last wedding we used a combination of a nikkor 18-200 vr and the stock 18-55 - certainly not totally professional lenses but we got some cracking photo's.
i used a pro speedlight which certainly helped and used it in slave mode for some good lighting effects too.
 
kman said:
Dont people do their research before taking 2nd shooters? I always take on pro's as 2nd shooter and 2nd shoot for other pro's in return. That means pro kit, and a style of photography thats close to my own - whats the point of having a 2nd shooter if their images are totally inconsistent with yours?
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The problem is with the mass saturation in everyone suddenly buying a DSLR and now a photographer means that the price point for most people out there is insanely low.

I had a friend charge a bottom of the barrel price of £1500 which was laughed at by the weeding couple who wanted to spend no more than £500. With the way everything is being cheapened, unless you are really able to sell yourself or have a good local rep (talking around London mainly), its quite difficult to justify anything.

Personally I agree with you, set aside a good enough budget for two pro or capable photographers. Knowing me, I would want to know their full kit bag before hiring them these days. :)
 
I was second shooting much earlier this year, and actually about to go home, most of kit back in boot, just one body with a 50mm [iirc] in my hand as I was saying goodbye to the the couple, main tog, etc. The bride was stood in an archway, waiting for her groom for a couple of last shots before the dancing started, everyone was milling around, the more 'relaxed' part of the day was pretty much underway. As I looked I saw the shot, but she was backlit...my kit was a good walk away in the car park... popped the onboard and prayed :lol: ... result, a lovely shot of the bride, with some great early evening lighting - whist I would prefer my 2nd shooters to have at least a flash gun [and I do mean 2nd's, not 'assistants'] when used correctly a pop up can yield results.
 
What sort of second shooters were they?
People wanting to pick up some experience, carrying bags and grabbing a few shots when they can. Or someone there to provide extra coverage to the same level as the main photographer?

Personally, my second shooter is the latter, so doesn't actually own a camera with a pop up flash. :lol:
 
the former type you describe is an assistant not a second shooter - imo the difference is a second is someone with sufficient experience/kit to get different shots - they don't necessarily have to have pro spec gear but i'd expect to see at least a flashgun with a poseable head

the key difference being that a second shooter increases the price of the package (and therefore the main pro has an obligation to supply someone who knows what they are doing) - an assistant doesnt
 
Just supposing.. the B&G get the pictures and are really happy with them.... will they care what equipment or flash was used?.. Seems to be the only people worried are busy-body photogrpahers who spend far too much time worrying about other peoples business..

just my thoughts:)
 
you are right if they are happy it doesnt matter, but the chances of a client being happy with redeye, burnt out whites and noise are slim

as to the busy body comment - personally I don't care what anyone else uses, but anyone second shooting with me will have appropriate kit , because that is my business. Likewise if a freind asks me for advice on who to hire , i'll only recommend someone who has decent kit and a good level of experience.
 
Definitely agree with you bass_junkie and kipax.
personally i wouldn't charge a price based on the number of photographers i'd do it based on the overall photo package quality
 
NoCrap said:
Definitely agree with you bass_junkie and kipax.
personally i wouldn't charge a price based on the number of photographers i'd do it based on the overall photo package quality
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are you actually a wedding photographer though - because that is bonkers

if you want decent quality second shooters you've pretty much got to pay them (even if you are lucky enough to have a good amateur shooting free to build a portfolio you've still got to cover their expenses)

so more togs equals more cost - so if you don't increase your price then you are cutting your profit margin to provide extra cover.

and a quality based pricing system is also nuts - every picture you take for your clients should be of high quality - whether its part of a set of 25 shot on a one hour, single tog ceremony only package, or part of a tripple header 2 day coverage - "I might be crap but i'm cheap" is not a responsible business model
 
big soft moose said:
you are right if they are happy it doesnt matter, but the chances of a client being happy with redeye, burnt out whites and noise are slim
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wow! your making some assumptions/prsumptions? there? based on what? the kit? how can you possibly say they will have burnt out whites because of the kit?


this is exactly my point.. people see non pro kit and natuaraly assume far too much..


as for experience.. i agree.. but seriously are you suggesting because they have non pro kit that they musty not be experienced?


its the old never judge someone by looks.. never judge a book by its cover and other gems.... but it seems a photogrpaher with an onboard flash is fair game?
 
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KIPAX said:
wow! your making some assumptions/prsumptions? there? based on what? the kit? how can you possibly say they will have burnt out whites because of the kit?
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its based on experience of shots the disapointed clients of other people have shown me - usually along the lines of "can you do anything with this" - the answer to which is usually basically "not without the raw files , and even then only maybe - you can't polish a turd"

you can't easily bounce an onboard flash, nor can you alter the power - and direct flash shooting a mainly white target at full power is pretty much a recipe for crapply exposed whites at close range, and under exposed shots at long range (especially in the hands of someone who hasnt got a lot of experience).

And this isnt about gear snobbery - as I said I've shot a wedding before with a 20D and a 430ex - assuming you know what you are doing you can do a great job with basic kit , but that doesnt include trying to use an onboard flash in the circumstances described in the OP
 
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To me it depends on the wedding. If I know I can get everything I need on my own I will quite happily let someone else come join me regardless of what kit they have, if they get anything good then great! I have some more nice shots to add to mine. If they don't I haven't lost anything. :) And its someone to keep me company when they sit down to eat :lol:

If I know I need someone for a wedding to do something I really need I will get someone with a little more experience and someone who knows how to use their kit.
 
Yv said:
I was second shooting much earlier this year, and actually about to go home, most of kit back in boot, just one body with a 50mm [iirc] in my hand as I was saying goodbye to the the couple, main tog, etc. The bride was stood in an archway, waiting for her groom for a couple of last shots before the dancing started, everyone was milling around, the more 'relaxed' part of the day was pretty much underway. As I looked I saw the shot, but she was backlit...my kit was a good walk away in the car park... popped the onboard and prayed :lol: ... result, a lovely shot of the bride, with some great early evening lighting - whist I would prefer my 2nd shooters to have at least a flash gun [and I do mean 2nd's, not 'assistants'] when used correctly a pop up can yield results.
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Hooray, personally I can't see an issue using a pop up for Fill flash to rid the dreaded panda eyes outside when milling about with guests taking candid shots, it's less intimidating to smaller/younger guests.

Of course wouldn't dream of using one inside and normally bounce it when I do.
 
not a wedding photographer, no - and you are correct... but i don't think i conveyed my self very well there.

anyway - what pricing would you set for use of a 2nd shooter then? +50% for potential 50% extra coverage (or is that bonkers and nuts?)
 
im desperate to second shoot a wedding with someone as im really keen to try my skills and see. However at the moment I only carry a d5100 and standard lens and even though i would be second shooting i think i should have something a bit better than that.

Anyone shooting anything for a customer should have at least (in my opinion) a shoe mounted flash and a decent non standard lens. I also think as a second shooter you should be running a telephoto because i would rather not see a second shooter and a main photographer
 
I am available to 2nd shoot. I have shot 3 weddings so far and looking to build my portfolio. I use a D700 with 50mm, 24-70mm, 70-200mm and an SB910. So kit wise I'm OK. I'm available in the London area and Essex.

Cheers,
Tony.
 
I had my first experience as a second shooter and I did struggle with the beginners kit I have.

Canon 1000D
Canon 50mm F1.8
Sigma 70-300
Canon 18-55mm
And I cheap flash gun to bounce the flash

I did get some good pics but I couldn't get in the same situations as the professional photographer.
 
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