Scrap your lenses! They won't work on new breed of cameras!!!

...
Of course they squeeze every last penny out of 'current' technology before releasing a 'new' one, it's how they repeat the cycle.

Consider the speed that technology progresses, then consider the life span of a device or product line. Which one evolves faster?

Consider Playstations for just a minute, logically now and don't rush.

Do Sony release a new console every few months? the tech for consoles outdates the current lines in roughly this format, would Sony drop their current line just because they discovered a better, more efficient or improved design?

Can you imagine the losses if they prematurely released new lines? When current lines are still generating profit?
The Playstation example is a bit of a clupea rubra, because the manufacturers take a loss on every Playstation or Xbox sold. They then make that up by charging the games publishers a fee for pressing the games. The games have a 2 year development cycle, and the games publishers want a large installed userbase of gamers with a given console in order to ensure they sell enough copies to make it worthwhile. So consoles only start to really take off - and get the best games (because software teams have gotten to understand the platform) and earn revenues - once they're 2 - 4 years into their production run. And the manufacturers do indeed want to stretch the consoles' lives as long as possible, so that they sell more games before the loss-making release of the next generation. The only thing that spurs them to release a new console is that if they wait too long their competitors will yell "we have teh new über thang" and they'll look uncool and irrelevant (which is important in that market) and get left behind in the numbers of devotees to their platform in the next generation.

I can kinda see where you're coming from - "current technologies work ok, so why mess around with a disruptive technology?" but the loss-per-sale makes the games console industry fundamentally different. Camera manufacturers make a profit on every lens or camera sold [1] so the incentive for them to make a "generational leap" is greater, assuming they see a way to make a huge image quality improvement (or cost savings).

I have to say I'm in mixed minds about this. When I first read Hoppy's original post, I did think he was blowing it out of all proportion, and I wondered if the thread would become as polarised as this. But then again, every piece of glass that a manufacturer puts in a lens decreases the quality of the image some - they're enlarging the projected image with one lens element, sharpening it with another, trying to correct aberrations with another and so on. Modern lens elements may be very good indeed, but it's a fundamental law of photography that lenses are lossy.

When I read Hoppy state that "all other DSLRs are just film cameras with film-based lenses" I kinda wanted to characterise that as "all other DSLRs are trying to optimally focus an image on a light-sensitive surface, lol!" But you can see that if a manufacturer were able to consistently reduce the number of elements in their lenses and do the same thing in software then they'd be crazy not to - each lens element that rolls off the production line costs money to manufacture, software only costs you once to write.

I'm a full-frame fancier, and I like the whole looking-in-a-viewfinder, seeing-what-the-camera-sees thing. I haven't used liveview, and SLR just makes sense to me. I don't want to buy into Hoppy's argument, but he does make some good points along these lines, such as his talk of getting rid of the mirror.

I guess a big part of the question here is whether sensors & software will become good enough. I am also pretty flummoxed as to how Canon would migrate from their current huge range of EF lenses into some radical new system.

Stroller.


[1] I would imagine the majority of buyers of the Canon 1000D only ever use the kit lens, or maybe one other, so I can't see cameras sold as a loss-leader to get people to buy lenses.
 
Also, there's a long thread about this camera & optical vs electronic viewfinders in the Pentax section of the DPreviews forums:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1036&thread=31210809&page=1
You might find it best to click "flat view" at the top to make it easier to read.

It contains stuff from proponents of both views - "give me a 4x5" LCD on the back and a dark cloth and I'll be happy" - and also that "EVF, the camera sensor is in fact operating 100% of the time, and that causes it to heat up. Heat causes noise. So, it stands to reason that EVIL cameras will typically have higher nosie levels than their mirror viewfinder counterparts". Maybe mirrors & conventional lenses will stick around for the high end?

Stroller.
 
Maybe mirrors & conventional lenses will stick around for the high end?

Stroller.

Ultimately no.

We should start to see DSLRs (although the S in DSLR will be a mis-nomer) with no mirror, purely driven by electronic shutter.

ISO and exposure will be controllable at the per-pixel level.
 
The over-riding problem that you haven't mentioned yet is that neither Panasonic nor Sony are in the financial position to be able to launch a multi-body, multi-lens system, and won't be in the next 3-5 years IMO.

Add to that the fact that it seems highly unlikely they're making any sort of play for the professional market and the suggestion that Canon and Nikon will become niche if they don't also do this is way off. The amount of investment required to even challenge these two as the de facto choices is mind-boggling and not on anyone's agenda right now. Witness the likes of Pioneer pulling out of TV production (a market they're in the top 3 in in terms of brand awareness and ratings) and for everyone it's a matter of survival.
 
I've got to believe that 'HoppyUK' has failed to grasp that all the manufacturers in the imaging industry are in business principally to make money and not make cameras. They do this by creating a never-ending selection of innovative and interesting products for consumers to purchase.

If they want to profit from a camera with a specification that requires 'new' lenses then they will make and try to sell them to us. If the kit is good enough then we'll stop using whatever we have already and buy into their new system. This has happened plenty of times in the past (otherwise we'd still be arguing whether Calotypes or Daguerreotypes were best) and it'll happen again and again and again in the future. Ad infinitum.
 
Google "Nimslo".

Sorry but you still seem to be confused, In post 64 I dropped a link to an article/forum post on a supposed DSLR 'Killer' made by a company called Red, then you appear to have focused only on the 3D system image that Strobemonkey posted in post 67.

My underlining point is that threats to current lines of tech are quite a long way off and were not going to see the kind of revolutionary changes that your implying anytime soon.

Yes, let's consider Playstation. If Sony had a monopoly market position with a vested interest in the status quo, you'd be right. But it doesn't. We have X-Box and Nintendo, and they have a vested interest in pushing their own new technologies, and getting them to market as quickly as possible. Evidently this is happening.

I'm quite aware that Sony have their competitors to consider but this does not drastically shorten the cycle of their current lines, they do not release a new system as soon as the tech is available (every few months most likely).
It's ludicrous to think that Sony will jettison a current line far too early because of what their competitors release. They may make a release maybe a few months early but not on the scale that your suggesting.
It just does not happen.

Improved versions are released when sales have dropped significantly. It's also worth mentioning that most loyal gamers will have both an Xbox and PS3 these days too.

The area the Strolls has drawn attention to also supports logic IMO:

....And the manufacturers do indeed want to stretch the consoles' lives as long as possible, so that they sell more games before the loss-making release of the next generation. The only thing that spurs them to release a new console is that if they wait too long their competitors will yell "we have the new über thang" and they'll look uncool and irrelevant (which is important in that market) and get left behind in the numbers of devotees to their platform in the next generation..

I think this is quite a pertinent point that, IMO, could apply to a lot of corporate ventures.

All I have done is draw people's attention to new technology presently being put to market by Panasonic, and suggested ways it might make for better cameras and lenses. I've gone further and suggested that over the next five to ten years, this technology will have a big impact on the equipment available from all manufacturers that folks on this forum might be using.

I'm not following your description of your intentions at all:

Your current lenses will not work on the next generation of cameras, which are just around the corner, like the Panasonic GH1 which will be out in a few months!

Haha! Blimey, you lot are already in denial, and you've not even seen the new products yet! LOL But like it or not, you will.

And then they were responses such as:

No, what you actually did was leap on a PR puff piece, laud it as the second coming and laugh at anyone a little more cautious.

and:

You are an marketing man's dream.

Hook. Line. Sinker.

Which I have to agree with.

I'll say it again. The ever accelerating progress of technology was not in doubt, nor is anyone discounting it or condemning it within the confines of this thread.
It seems that some, including myself, hold the opinion that the topic has no relevance and belongs in the PR hype and marketing propaganda pool.
 
Jeez guys, go out and take some photos.....:)
 
I`m sure you are.

Well being completely truthful I'm not on a shoot, I'm propped up on a a very comfy sofa with my macbook and graphics tablet on my lap, in a lovely warm house in the snow covered boonies (the missus's folks, we live in the city), but I am editing all of last weeks shoots and I have a 14 till 21 strobist meet tomorrow in Helsinki, which is unpaid and purely for the love of it kind deal.
So all in all, just like the others who are contributing to the discussion/debate/argument, I feel entitled to make as much of this writing stuff as I please :razz:
 
The irony of you posting to tell people to go out doesn't escape me.

And looking at the post counts you spend rather more time here....

So, if people want to contribute they can.
 
The irony of you posting to tell people to go out doesn't escape me.

And looking at the post counts you spend rather more time here....

So, if people want to contribute they can.

Has Basingstoke had an epidemic of humour failure?
 
I do not see anything life changing in this.
It will not make any existing systems or lenses less good than they are now. :)

However many of us use PTLens or DXO to remove aberrations in existing lenses, especially wide angle zooms.
They are just building in this capability.

I would prefer to see it in the raw converter than in the camera... but I doubt that is true of Jpg users.

Lenses can be designed smaller, cheaper, with fewer parts and with little consideration given to vignetting or other aberrations at any focal length, aperture or focus distance.

The final image will be totally flat, with out residual distortion, or CA and sharper over the whole field than is possible with present lenses, which rely on optical compromise to achieve the finest result.:)

For instance... a lens could be designed for ultimate sharpness and colour fidelity over the field, with out have to take into account other factors. The resulting aberrations could then be removed, in body on amateur cameras, or in raw converters for professional cameras and lenses.

Will it happen? ... of course... it is already used in satellite, astronomical and survey photography, it will obviously expand down in to every other field.
 
The new Nikon 35mm f/1.8 is attracting a lot of attention. Great spec, excellent performance, good price. There's an in-depth test on DPReview. If you click the link and scroll down to 'Chromatic Aberration' there are two pictures which show the on-board correction which new Nikon DSLRs apply to the image. The difference is dramatic.

In the design of this lens, in order to achieve the price and performance goals, Nikon was aware of what could be done in-camera, digitally and electronically. So they didn't have to bother about optical correction of CA too much. The result is a cracking good lens, at reasonable cost.

This seems like a way forward to me, and it is just one small example of the benefits derived from looking at things differently, and taking advantage of new technology in all areas.

http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/nikon_35_1p8g_n15/page3.asp
 
But if a lens designer doesn't have to worry about distortion because a sophisticated series of algorithms has got it completely sorted over a range of focal lengths, then the angles become wider.

and that's what I think photographers don't want to hear.

I don't want a lens designer not worrying about distortion because the processing will take care of it. I want him worrying about making the very best lens he can make with low distortion, low CA, fast aperture, creamy bokeh etcetc.

if some processing can be the optional icing on the cake, then great, but it shouldn't make up for a lack of high quality design in the first place, and I think that's where many people's issue lies.

David
 
and that's what I think photographers don't want to hear.

I don't want a lens designer not worrying about distortion because the processing will take care of it. I want him worrying about making the very best lens he can make with low distortion, low CA, fast aperture, creamy bokeh etcetc.

if some processing can be the optional icing on the cake, then great, but it shouldn't make up for a lack of high quality design in the first place, and I think that's where many people's issue lies.

David

And I think you're right. I didn't expect the level of anti in this thread. I also think that manufacturers are aware of this, and have been very coy about what is actually going on inside their cameras already.

Panasonic says that Leica has not yet agreed to lend its name to the new technology, which is interesting. But it will, because it desperately needs the money. And I also have very strong suspicions that, because of what is not being categorically denied, that there is significant image processing being used in the Leica-lensed Panasonic compacts, including the Raw files that come out of the LX3. I am not convinced that they are able to produce lenses of the physical size and price fitted to the LX3 (24-55mm eqiv f/2, and 25-125mm f/2.8 in my FX500) that are so sharp and yet have so little distortion, CA and vignetting without digital processing help.

But imagine the fuss, after people have forked out for a Leica lens and raved about all its wonderfulness in photos, if they were then told it's not the Leica lens at all, it's the Panasonic image processing. I can hear the howls of mental torture now! Sometimes photography is not about taking pictures at all; it is about owning (and fondling) expensive toys.

Keen photographers (gadget lovers?) don't appear to like the idea of digital image processing, and as you say prefer to think of optical purity, of gleaming fast apertures and creamy bokeh. I am far from immune to this myself, but to take a left of field example, I really don't understand why Audi, in its ingenious completely variable version of an automatic transmission, Multitronic, has seen fit to electronically map in faux gear changes to somehow mimmic a manual box. It's the same psychology at work.
 
"EVF, the camera sensor is in fact operating 100% of the time, and that causes it to heat up. Heat causes noise. So, it stands to reason that EVIL cameras will typically have higher nosie levels than their mirror viewfinder counterparts". Maybe mirrors & conventional lenses will stick around for the high end?
Ultimately no.

We should start to see DSLRs (although the S in DSLR will be a mis-nomer) with no mirror, purely driven by electronic shutter.
I think you mean it's the "R" that'll be a misnomer. :thumbs:

Anyway, you don't address any of the reasoning that the bloke gives - that an electronic viewfinder requires the sensor to be on all the time, which generates heat which generates noise.

Sure, they may be able to reduce the noisiness of sensors, but the same sensor used only for the fractions of a second that the image is actually being exposed will be cooler & less noisy than a sensor which is hot because it's being used all the time in the minutes upto the exposure. Maybe sensor manufacturers will be able to reduce the noise generated by heat to a degree whereby this effect is barely noticeable, but knowing "high-end" photographers there will be some who insist that they can still see the difference.

I don't really have a vested interest in this - except maybe that I'm a Canon fanboi, and I'm skint so I'd like to see cheaper bodies & lenses, and that I mostly anticipate achiving cheaper bodies & lenses in my future purchases by buying secondhand - and I'm not an expert. But those arguments do make sense to me.

Transistor count in computer processors - which is something I do know about - has been going up for all the decades I've been interested in those, and heatsinks have consequently been getting consistently bigger all that time. I don't really want a big heatsink on the back of my camera, or the whirr of a fan cooling the sensor, just to save the cost of a moving mirror. :lol:

Stroller.
 
The new Nikon 35mm f/1.8 is attracting a lot of attention. Great spec, excellent performance, good price. There's an in-depth test on DPReview. If you click the link and scroll down to 'Chromatic Aberration' there are two pictures which show the on-board correction which new Nikon DSLRs apply to the image. The difference is dramatic.

In the design of this lens, in order to achieve the price and performance goals, Nikon was aware of what could be done in-camera, digitally and electronically. So they didn't have to bother about optical correction of CA too much. The result is a cracking good lens, at reasonable cost.

This seems like a way forward to me, and it is just one small example of the benefits derived from looking at things differently, and taking advantage of new technology in all areas.

http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/nikon_35_1p8g_n15/page3.asp
If I'm reading this right, the in-camera JPEG is better than the RAW processed with Adobe. Looking at the corner-crop of the harbour shot - in the RAW+Adobe version the vertical concrete thingies look whiter (which I think is wrong), but also (to me) like they have some colour-fringing. In the in-camera JPEG the blue ventilator cover (or whatever it is) looks to me sharper & more distinct, as does the tree in front of it.

What concerns me about stuff like this is, does Nikon provide a RAW convertor that offers this same correction? Does that mean I have to always use their RAW convertor? Because I don't want to. How long will it still be supported? Can I run it on my Mac or my Tux box?

I hate stuff like this. I have a Canon and I already see people saying "oh, use the correction tools in the Canon RAW software", but I really don't want to do that. I import into Aperture, and I might also export into Photoshop & edit in there - how many frikkin' photo programs do I have to have on my computer? Messing around first in Canon's software - and then, what? exporting as TIFF into Aperture - just messes up my workflow. I shouldn't have to do it, but now there's a little bit of me worrying that my photos are poorer because they haven't had the correct Canon corrections applied to them.

As I've said, I can really see the appeal to manufacturers of replacing lens corrections with digital, but if manufacturers are going to go this route I hope they'll publish the corrections required for each lens (and I just know they won't). The digital corrections required by, say, this Nikkor 35mm should be fairly easy for the manufacturer to describe formulaically (it's just a straight-forward curve or series of curves to apply from the centre of the lens). But they're the only people who can really do so. So if Apple or Adobe, or Linus Freakin' Torsvalds, wants to write a program for converting and editing RAWs then they're just going to have to guess what corrections to make for this lens.

Ideally the manufacturers will publish some sample sourcecode for each lens, which Adobe or Apple or Microsoft or whoever can then build into their own applications to accommodate these new lenses. But I just know they won't, so we'll all be restricted from using the new Darkroom™ (or whatever its called) or have to go through extra steps in order to process our images.

Stroller.
 
If I'm reading this right, the in-camera JPEG is better than the RAW processed with Adobe. Looking at the corner-crop of the harbour shot - in the RAW+Adobe version the vertical concrete thingies look whiter (which I think is wrong), but also (to me) like they have some colour-fringing. In the in-camera JPEG the blue ventilator cover (or whatever it is) looks to me sharper & more distinct, as does the tree in front of it.

What concerns me about stuff like this is, does Nikon provide a RAW convertor that offers this same correction? Does that mean I have to always use their RAW convertor? Because I don't want to. How long will it still be supported? Can I run it on my Mac or my Tux box?

I hate stuff like this. I have a Canon and I already see people saying "oh, use the correction tools in the Canon RAW software", but I really don't want to do that. I import into Aperture, and I might also export into Photoshop & edit in there - how many frikkin' photo programs do I have to have on my computer? Messing around first in Canon's software - and then, what? exporting as TIFF into Aperture - just messes up my workflow. I shouldn't have to do it, but now there's a little bit of me worrying that my photos are poorer because they haven't had the correct Canon corrections applied to them.

As I've said, I can really see the appeal to manufacturers of replacing lens corrections with digital, but if manufacturers are going to go this route I hope they'll publish the corrections required for each lens (and I just know they won't). The digital corrections required by, say, this Nikkor 35mm should be fairly easy for the manufacturer to describe formulaically (it's just a straight-forward curve or series of curves to apply from the centre of the lens). But they're the only people who can really do so. So if Apple or Adobe, or Linus Freakin' Torsvalds, wants to write a program for converting and editing RAWs then they're just going to have to guess what corrections to make for this lens.

Ideally the manufacturers will publish some sample sourcecode for each lens, which Adobe or Apple or Microsoft or whoever can then build into their own applications to accommodate these new lenses. But I just know they won't, so we'll all be restricted from using the new Darkroom™ (or whatever its called) or have to go through extra steps in order to process our images.

Stroller.

Yes, I think you've got a point. But I don't think it is anything to worry about, any more than there is usually a slight delay between the release of a new camera and a support update being issued by Adobe.

Of course, the manufacturers could play hard to get and not release all the extra lens data to third parties, in which case Adobe etc would have to get hold of the lenses and extrapolate their own. This should not be that difficult.

But it is not in the manufacturers' interests to put hurdles in anybody's way, least of all consumers, and they have no profit interest in selling software which they supply free (at least Canon does). I think the present arrangement where everybody cooperates will still be in everybody's best interests.

Where I am less clear is where Sigma and Tamron etc will stand in all this. When you fit a Sigma lens, will the camera apply custom corrections, or will it apply some rough generic corrections, or will it do nothing? Of course, the third party makers could simply respond by producing lenses that do not require any digital correction, but that, presumably, would make their lenses uncompetitive one way or another.

My doubts here are directly related to the obvious profit motive that camera manufacturers have in selling lenses. Do they see Sigma etc as rivals for their Yen, or partners in crime? I don't know what the licensing agreements are surrounding lens mounts etc, or what they will be when radically new technology rips up the old satus quo.

Guessing now, but I can only see manufacturers being keen as mustard to smooth the path of any new product to market, especially something as obviously sensitive as this where consumers already have big investments in existing kit.
 
Sometimes photography is not about taking pictures at all; it is about owning (and fondling) expensive toys.
No. That is not 'photography' at all.

Some buy things they don't need, (often) for a price they cannot afford, to impress others who don't care. That is just ego gratification for insignificant people with no self worth.
 
...Where I am less clear is where Sigma and Tamron etc will stand in all this. When you fit a Sigma lens, will the camera apply custom corrections, or will it apply some rough generic corrections, or will it do nothing? ...

My doubts here are directly related to the obvious profit motive that camera manufacturers have in selling lenses. Do they see Sigma etc as rivals for their Yen, or partners in crime? I don't know what the licensing agreements are surrounding lens mounts etc, ...
I won't address any of your other points right now, but very quickly I can tell you that Canon do not license any 3rd-parties to make compatible lenses. I know this because it was the reason given to me by Sigma when the lens I bought 6 years previously didn't work with my shiny new Canon 350D.

All Canon EF lenses work with all Canon autofocus bodies. This may be because Canon showed incredible foresight when they designed the protocol used for lenses & bodies to talk to each other, or I suspect it's just because they know their older lenses well enough to fudge things the right way when newer bodies encounter them. I guess the compromise characterisation is that Canon has evolved the protocol with different versions, and that their equipment is clever enough to fallback gracefully to the previous version if they find themselves mated to an older product.

Anyway, Sigma - and all the third parties - have no other choice but to reverse engineer how EF lenses talk to the bodies, and sometimes it's just tough titty when they've got it wrong. My Sigma telephoto gave "Err 99" and was basically junk by the time 350D became popular. I have to say that I don't particularly like this anti-competitive state of affairs, but consider it the price of using Canon bodies.

Philosophically I prefer the openness espoused by proponents of the four-thirds system, although I have no idea how this actually meets reality. If I thought that I could get a good range of lenses from Sigma & Tamron guaranteed to work with my camera body and I thought the experience would measure up to the whole Canon "ecosystem" then I would jump ship in a flash. This is well off-topic now, but if a manufacturer supports an open specification then I know they want to be the best by producing a good product, and not by just locking me into their lens mount. It is challenging their competitors to do better, giving them a level battlefield on which to do so and allowing me to choose the winner each time I buy a lens. I could really devote myself to such a platform (as many Konica-Minolta owners have done) knowing that it had a future and feeling secure that my best interests were safe.

Stroller.
 
Interesting post Strolls.

The point you make about 4/3rds being an open system is a good one. Of course, Panasonic is a member of this consortium and their new camera which started all this debate uses that format. Panasonic is further advantaged by having virtually no heritage legacy to protect, unlike Canon and Nikon that have massive vested interest in existing systems and customers.

The driver here will be, as always, profit. And whichever route to market that will deliver most of that is the one manufacturers will follow. Different makers may take different routes, but a major change here is that, unlike film, camera manufacturers now hold the access keys to the inner workings of their image sensors and system. In the past they had no control over what film was put in the back of their cameras, or how it was used. Today, they can make their sensors any size or shape or specification that they like.

This is a big shift, and camera makers will want to leverage this new position, for profit, if they possibly can. I don't like this anti-competitive situation any more than you, but that is because I am a consumer. If I was a shareholder in a camera company I might feel differently and would want to lever any position of advantage that enhanced the bottom line.

But the way I look at this right now, I think it might very well be a bit like 4/3rds in that it will really struggle to catch on if people are locked out. It doesn't matter how good it is, if people can't afford to switch, it won't happen. So manufacturers need to open the doors to access as wide as they possibly can. Canon and Nikon must tread very carefully, whereas Panasonic and perhaps Sony can do pretty much what it likes.
 
With respect Wayne, you are missing the point. I am talking about the logical extension of digital technology, and a ground-up redesign of the camera and lenses using all available technology. The result is quite different, and better, than taking what is essentially a film camera design but with a digital sensor instead.

That whole concept, remarkable for its longevity, is due an overhaul now that we don't need a reflex mirror and an optical viewing system. We won't need a mechanical shutter for much longer, either. Take those requirements away and suddenly the camera that emerges is nothing like what we're used to. And when you incorporate everything that is now becoming possible with digital image processing, the results from such a camera will be equally different, and better. I'm talking about ten years from now, but the point is, the process has already started.

One application might be cheaper, better cameras, but another might be an equally expensive but significantly better camera and lenses that would indeed appeal to serious photographers.

Why wouldn't it? Nikon D3 already hints at what might be possible, in a small way, with its on-board JPEG processing, but without a substantial system redesign it can't go much further. If the major manufacturers fail to recognise this, they will soon find themselves in the Leica and Hasselblad niche. But of course they won't do this - they are as forward thinking as anybody, and just as interested in selling us new kit. Personally, I can't wait :)

I think your missing the point, the reason it's been around so long is because it works, like holding the camera to the eye, far more stable than holding it at arms length and trying to see a 3 inch screen in sunlight.
The reasons APS and disk didn't catch on was mostly because they were crap, the smaller film gave poorer quality, so bad in most cases even Joe public gave up, exactly the reason more and more digital cameras are getting higher pixle counts, to improve quality, and thats the key, better quakity. The D3 is stunning, but you don't need to change the shape to add things like lens compensation, DXO can do it now, just in the software, all the camera needs to know is what lens it's using, and a bit of added firmware.
I'm not sure why you feel the need to try and convince us, unless your working for Panasonic, in which case you'd probably be better off making a remote control that finds itself. Wayne
 
I think your missing the point, the reason it's been around so long is because it works, like holding the camera to the eye, far more stable than holding it at arms length and trying to see a 3 inch screen in sunlight.
The reasons APS and disk didn't catch on was mostly because they were crap, the smaller film gave poorer quality, so bad in most cases even Joe public gave up, exactly the reason more and more digital cameras are getting higher pixle counts, to improve quality, and thats the key, better quakity. The D3 is stunning, but you don't need to change the shape to add things like lens compensation, DXO can do it now, just in the software, all the camera needs to know is what lens it's using, and a bit of added firmware.
I'm not sure why you feel the need to try and convince us, unless your working for Panasonic, in which case you'd probably be better off making a remote control that finds itself. Wayne

Just because something has been around a long time, and works, is absolutely no reason not to change. If it was, we'd still be using film. And I'd be riding around on a horse.

If a any new product, or service, is either significantly, better, faster, or cheaper than the existing offering, then sooner or later it will succeed. Anything that can do all of those things, like digital, will succeed quickly and in a big way.

Disc messed up because, as you say, it failed on all counts. APS was a bit different in that the concept wasn't that bad (I certainly got some excellent results form it) but it wasn't significantly better overall, and it certainly wasn't any faster or cheaper. I actually think it would have done okay if digital hadn't come along and simply swept everything away with big improvements in every criterior, and in all manner of applications from phones to compacts to DSLRs.

The technology that Panasonic is demonstrating clearly has the potential to be both better and/or cheaper. I would also say that it will be faster, as everything will happen in-camera and no post-processing will be necessary. These are big advantages.

Perhaps you don't think that they are. But I rather like the idea of an electronic viewfinder, at eye-level that is always clear and bright. That shows true depth of field, has contrast-detect AF that works fast from any part of the image, and can display any and all camera controls directly to my eye (or none, if that's what I want). I like the idea of lenses that are cheap, fast and sharp from corner to corner, with plenty of zoom range and no comporomises on CA, distortion and vignetting. And I like the idea of images being recorded just as I see them with full dynamic range, clean highlights, rich shadows and true colours, without my having to mess about with them on the computer.

None of this takes anything away from what we already have, if that's the way you want to keep it.
 
Call me a cynic, but I doubt 'fast and sharp from corner to corner, with plenty of zoom range and no comporomises on CA, distortion and vignetting' = cheap
 
Call me a cynic, but I doubt 'fast and sharp from corner to corner, with plenty of zoom range and no comporomises on CA, distortion and vignetting' = cheap

That's because you are applying assumptions based on old technology. This is new technology, unhindered by the constraints necessary in a film camera.

Just look at the technology we have today, what it can do, and the real cost compared to cameras and lenses twenty years ago, what they could do, and their cost then in real terms. It impossible to say that the equipment we now have is not dramatically better in every dimension, and also cheaper. Obviously, or we'd all still be using it.

I don't see why that process should not continue, especially if at the same time you remove a few barriers that have previoiusly held things back. That's how we get a sudden big jump. Your comment is not so much cynical, more a not taking everything into account.
 
You said it yourself - 'The driver here will be, as always, profit'. Reconcile that comment with the enormous R&D, tooling, software development, marketing, advertising, distribution channels.....it ain't working, especially in the global economic climate we see ourselves in for the next few years.

I'm not convinced by your arguments at all - it's all a bit emperor's new clothes now.

I'm not applying assumptions based on old technology, I'm applying assumptions based on camera companies making as much money as they can from us (as I would be in their position). Any truly astounding new, disruptive technology is never cheap. It's always expensive, particularly at the beginning.

If you seriously think you're getting a 24-70mm f2.8 that's 'fast and sharp from corner to corner, with plenty of zoom range and no comporomises on CA, distortion and vignetting' for £300 think again. You might see a reduction in lens costs at the manufacturing point, but that could easily be replaced by costs elsewhere in the dev lifecycle. Moreover, these 'cheap' prices are nothing more than assumption on your part, based, it seems to me, on wishful thinking.
 
Judging by the responses here I'm not the only one with doubts about this.
Hoppy your trying too hard, this is starting to smell like spam now, I don't know what if any your connection with Painosonic (as I now call it) but frankly after this thread I wouldn't even buy a tv made by them.
For what it's worth people do still use film, it's actually making a bit of a comeback(people who have owned a Painosonic camera maybe?), and people still use horses, just because it's new doesn't make it good.
I won't be replying to this again, you obviously have a vested intrest and wont see anybody else point of view. Wayne
 
Sensationalist tosh. Hoppy is sold, sure. The rest of you, enjoy your kit. Canon and Nikon will not burn their bridges, too much at stake in this war.

Now for those of you trying to get Mr Excitable to see your point of view, STOP, NOT gonna happen. When you know you're right, you know you're right. He knows he's right :)

Hoppy, enjoy the new kit when you get it. I hope you stick around to say "I told you so" ;)

Gary.
 
Ok, win some lose some. I know when I'm beat. But I enjoyed it - in a masochistic kind of way :)
 
I believe some, but not all, no.

The evidence of my own eyes is still intact. I have seen enough to believe what has been discussed will happen, and that it is significant to all photographers - snapshotters and enthusiasts alike. But it will apply more to snapshotters than I thought, and less to enthusiasts than I hoped.

Clearly, not many others share my level of enthusiasm for it, and I am a bit surprised that most people are quick to see the downsides before the advantages. Or play down the extent of the difference it could make for the good. They might be right.

I still think that the cameras and lenses that will be available in five years will be radically different, with the major changes centred around in-camera image processing and enhancement, and the knock-on effects of that. Cameras could be solid state with no moving parts - no mechanical mirror or shutter, no mechanical diaphragm. Maybe the only moving parts would be some lens elements for focus and zoom.

Also, I still believe that the majority of cameras being bought in ten years will be more like this than those we use today. But I am no longer convinced that the relatively small number of enthusiast camera models will be among them. For all sorts of reasons that have been touched on here (good and practical reasons, not just resistance to change) I now think that enthusiasts will probably be using enhanced versions of the cameras we have now, rather than completely new ones.
 
Clearly, not many others share my level of enthusiasm for it, and I am a bit surprised that most people are quick to see the downsides before the advantages. Or play down the extent of the difference it could make for the good. They might be right.
I think the reaction you got was entirely due to the way you introduced the subject.

There are some interesting issues here, but the way you started the thread with a bunch of patently absurd claims guaranteed that there would not be any kind of sensible discussion. That's a shame, and it was avoidable.

Something for you to think about next time, perhaps.

On a personal note it's also forced me to radically reassess my view of you as a forum contributor, from someone who can usually be relied on to talk sense to someone who ... can't. That's also a shame, and it was also avoidable.
 
Well Stewart, thank you for that. I don't know anybody that talks absolute sense all the time, especially on here, and in the words of a colleague who is closer to genius than most, "I reserve the right to talk [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] and change my mind." I'm on here to learn, to ask questions and float ideas just as much as the next person. This is the best photo forum I've found for that, and I enjoy it.

The way I introduced the thread was deliberate. And a perhaps a mistake, but I've certainly learned plenty about what people think of this stuff. I did it that way because I've raised this topic before and not got much of a reaction either way. And in the case of the camera that prompted it all, the Panasonic GH1, it will indeed need a new lens system and so the headline is completely true.

I'm not sure how that fact makes me an unreliable forum contributor, but I look forward to joining a long list of distinguished predecessors, including you Stewart ;) I think that's what makes this place interesting (but I may be wrong!).
 
Well Stewart, thank you for that. I don't know anybody that talks absolute sense all the time, especially on here, and in the words of a colleague who is closer to genius than most, "I reserve the right to talk [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] and change my mind." I'm on here to learn, to ask questions and float ideas just as much as the next person. This is the best photo forum I've found for that, and I enjoy it.

The way I introduced the thread was deliberate. And a perhaps a mistake, but I've certainly learned plenty about what people think of this stuff. I did it that way because I've raised this topic before and not got much of a reaction either way. And in the case of the camera that prompted it all, the Panasonic GH1, it will indeed need a new lens system and so the headline is completely true.

I'm not sure how that fact makes me an unreliable forum contributor, but I look forward to joining a long list of distinguished predecessors, including you Stewart ;) I think that's what makes this place interesting (but I may be wrong!).

To me it read "You fools, imagine spending all that money on kit. It's gonna be obsolete in a year or so!"....

Then reading through the thread, you seemed to try and ram the point of view down peoples throat when they disagreed.

Anyhoo, no hard feelings :) I think it is inevitable that the cameras will adopt and expand, and no doubt, they will get better on board processing. Just I think the transition from the SLR system to whatever replaces it, will be a relatively long one.

Gary.
 
...you seemed to try and ram the point of view down peoples throat when they disagreed.

That's why I enjoy your posts Gary ;)

...Anyhoo, no hard feelings :) I think it is inevitable that the cameras will adopt and expand, and no doubt, they will get better on board processing. Just I think the transition from the SLR system to whatever replaces it, will be a relatively long one.

How dare you make that ridiculous and unfounded assertion! :D
 
That's why I enjoy your posts Gary ;)

Do explain ;)

How dare you make that ridiculous and unfounded assertion! :D

Hiding behind sarcasm won't wash with me. What you insinuated, bluntly, and arrogantly, was that the majority of us have purchased "scrap heaps" of lenses. You more or less refused to accept anything other than "You're right!", with regards to the so called "evidence" of this new breed of super camera which you claim is about hit the market.

All of us know the kit is getting more advanced, and we all know more and more features are being included to enhance our images. No one denies that. However, you cannot expect anyone to bow down to your godlike knowledge of all things marketing with regards to the next few years in the world of photography. You can kick, scream and shout about how you are right, but it's futile. The simple fact is, you will always be wrong.

Gary.
 
wtf is this:

3D.jpg


Will you bring this one with you when touring :lol::lol::lol:?

Wonder how long it would take for the police to come running if I was to use that mofo for taking pics of the houses of parliament or something!
 
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