Scotland & Private Property

EdinburghGary

EdinburghGary

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I will keep it simple as getting late. Recently I was in the "open grounds" of the RBS headquarters in Edinburgh. I say open grounds as roads the public are allowed to use flow throughout, and there are no warnings / signs / fences etc etc.

I park the car next to a "bus stop" which is within the RBS private grounds. Very nice bus stop with fancy benches and lights etc (pics later)...

Anyway, I was more or less threatened by security - told I was not allowed to take photos of anything in the grounds, and I could be arrested. I ignored him and continued to wander about taking photos, him shouting at me to stop. I eventually told him to call the police, which he refused to do. It started to rain, I got in car, and went home with my pics!!

Now as far as I am led to believe, tresspassing is very lax in Scotland. Anyone have an idea whether or not I was legally correct? I understand morally I am on shaky ground, but I was not trying to cause any harm.

Gary.
 
Found this to start with, it may be helpfull. This may be more to do with the countryside.
.......................................................................

It has long been the accepted that trespass isn't an offence in Scotland. However, speaking at a public meeting in Inverness where the Justice 2 Committee of the Scottish Parliament were taking evidence on the Land Reform (Scotland) Bill, legal expert Alan Blackshaw quoted two alternative views and called on the politicians to come up with a definitive answer.

http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/news/trespass.html
 
Are you refering to the RBS building at Gogarburn near the Gyle round aboout.

If it was me I would have done the same thing as you. Get him to call the police. Unless he can give you a valid reason NOT to take pictures. Or unless he deams you to be a terrorist, or you are taking pics of sensative stuff.

That land does have public access roads in to the site and throu the site. Christ buses go throu it.

There are no signs for private property, or no tresspassing signs.

Also there is no secuirity fenced off areas of high importance that you could accidently stumble into.

I was in that complex around a year or so ago and was getting pictures of the RBS bridge, at that time it used to be lit up at night and looked great against the black sky.

mike
 
your right about the law, someone could walk through the middle of your land and as long as no damage is done then there is nothing you can do, and in some cases you have to make your land more accsesable to people..... freedom of scotland i thinks its called....
 
if its private property they can say no photography. However if you read Scotlands right to roam it says you can roam on private property ( not someones front garden obviously, nor in somewhere that you pay an entrance fee for) and the right to roam allows you to take part in recreational and "some" commercial ventures. i would have said photography comes under recreational............ however if you were actively taking photographs of the buildins and sensitive areas ( bearing in mind this IS a bank and grounds) then i think the security guard was probably in the right or erring on the side of caution.

Fi
 
bonsyde said:
your right about the law, someone could walk through the middle of your land and as long as no damage is done then there is nothing you can do, and in some cases you have to make your land more accsesable to people..... freedom of scotland i thinks its called....
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its not a blanket permission and not all land comes under it........ however "outdoors" also covers open areas of land in citys and towns

just taken this from Scotlands outdoor code
3. You can exercise access rights for recreational purposes (such as pastimes, family and social activities, and more active pursuits like horse riding, cycling, wild camping and taking part in events), educational purposes (concerned with furthering a person’s understanding of the natural and cultural heritage), some commercial purposes (where the activities are the same as those done by the general public) and for crossing over land or water.
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dj_myk said:
Are you refering to the RBS building at Gogarburn near the Gyle round aboout.

If it was me I would have done the same thing as you. Get him to call the police. Unless he can give you a valid reason NOT to take pictures. Or unless he deams you to be a terrorist, or you are taking pics of sensative stuff.

That land does have public access roads in to the site and throu the site. Christ buses go throu it.

There are no signs for private property, or no tresspassing signs.

Also there is no secuirity fenced off areas of high importance that you could accidently stumble into.

I was in that complex around a year or so ago and was getting pictures of the RBS bridge, at that time it used to be lit up at night and looked great against the black sky.

mike
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Yup, exactly the place. Fantastic grounds, lots of lovely angles, and shapes. The lighting is intense too.

Gary.
 
Fionab said:
if its private property they can say no photography. However if you read Scotlands right to roam it says you can roam on private property ( not someones front garden obviously, nor in somewhere that you pay an entrance fee for) and the right to roam allows you to take part in recreational and "some" commercial ventures. i would have said photography comes under recreational............ however if you were actively taking photographs of the buildins and sensitive areas ( bearing in mind this IS a bank and grounds) then i think the security guard was probably in the right or erring on the side of caution.

Fi
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Not once did I point my camera anywhere near "the bank" so to speak. I took pics of their bridge, the bus stop and a stair case / tunnel.

Gary.
 
Every bus that comes into the RBS is fitted with cctv cameras at the front is he he going to stop them too. I think I know the old fart your talking about, likes to make his presence known, I used to drive buses into there and he was well known to drivers for being a prat. Usually two words were enough to send him on his way.
 
I don't think you were doing anything wrong and he had no right to stop you. Why not contact the bank for their POV?
 
Probably just a jobsworth, but it's worth knowing that all financial institutions are feeling a touch vulnerable and suspicious at the moment given the circumstances of the market.
 
I ran this past a mate who's in the police and her view is that there is no such thing as tresspassing under scottish law so you really can go pretty much anywhere, including someone's front garden if you feel so inclined :nono: (morally a bit dodgy but perfectly legal) as long as you don't do any damage, BUT there's no definition of damage so if you get a snotty police officer then something really minor like a kneeprint (can't think of a better example just now) may be enough to get arrested for criminal damage (it probably won't stick but it's enough to ruin your day :( ). Also if your in someone's garden, then they can get you for breach of the peace or similar if someone feels threatened or upset by you being there.
 
Thanks Jazzy,

I will going back at some point to try and get better shots. I just wish I could show them some kind of pass / document showing my rights. They started to get very aggressive towards me, physical violence was threatened by one of the younger guards at one point.

G.
 
I think had they threatened me with physical violence I would have called the police myself!
 
I dont even know why trespass is even an issue in this thread, surely trespass is trespass with or without a camera.
If its a place where the public is allowed to roam freely, why would they suddenly be accused of trespass because the are taking photos.
That aside, and back to the point, does the jobsworth have grounds to stop togs shooting in the areas he says ?
If its private property and they say no photo jo, thats that....isn't it ?
I dunno, we had this the other week with shopping centers.
Personally, I dont think its really right to allow, nay, NEED jo public to use a shopping mall but chuck em out if they have a camera.
 
EdinburghGary said:
Thanks Jazzy,

I will going back at some point to try and get better shots. I just wish I could show them some kind of pass / document showing my rights. They started to get very aggressive towards me, physical violence was threatened by one of the younger guards at one point.

G.
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I'd have taken out my mobile and dialled 999 saying I ws being threatened (it's classed as an emergency if you're in imminent danger) :D

It might be worth emailing them and asking if photography is permitted and if there are any areas which are restricted. If you get a response saying it's fine, even if their are restrictions on any areas, print it out with full headers (should be an option in your inbox to show full headers) and take a copy of the email with you. Might not do much with the security guys but if they do call the police then you should be fine.

If there are any restrictions on certain areas, I would be inclined to ask said security guards to indicate exactly where these areas are even if you already know, then they really don't have a leg to stand on.

EdinburghGary said:
Was worried about the police siding with bank security and taking my gear :(
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As far as I'm aware they can't take your gear. They might ask to see the pics (i get then quite often from the local plods) but if there's nothing that could be considered 'sensitive' the you should be ok. I'll try and get hold of my mate to confirm this ***.

On another note, the first thing I get from the police is their number and if they ask why, I just tell them that it's incase I have cause for complaint. They have to give it to you and if they're going to get stroppy then they tend to think twice about it cos they know they can be identified.
 
jazzy66 said:
I ran this past a mate who's in the police and her view is that there is no such thing as tresspassing under scottish law so you really can go pretty much anywhere, including someone's front garden if you feel so inclined :nono: (morally a bit dodgy but perfectly legal)
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Sorry, I do not believe that is correct:

Where you cannot go by access rights

Houses and sufficient adjacent land to provide reasonable privacy
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Link.

I'm sure a front (or rear) garden of a 'normal' house would fall under this.
 
Gogarburn has some great photo opportunities. I work there and i have to ask for permission to photograph it. I did ask ages ago, got permission, but didn't get round to taking any shots.

I am not defending security, but perhaps they weren't aware of your motives. I don't know if you told them why you were taking photographs but I'm guessing that as you had ignored their request to stop taking piccies they imediately thought you were up to no good. remember it is a bank afterall.

looking forward to seeing your pics though

Eoghan
 
It sounds like the perfect place for a TP meet :D And a bit of jobsworth-baiting.
 
Eoghan said:
Gogarburn has some great photo opportunities. I work there and i have to ask for permission to photograph it. I did ask ages ago, got permission, but didn't get round to taking any shots.

I am not defending security, but perhaps they weren't aware of your motives. I don't know if you told them why you were taking photographs but I'm guessing that as you had ignored their request to stop taking piccies they imediately thought you were up to no good. remember it is a bank afterall.

looking forward to seeing your pics though

Eoghan
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Told them it was a personal hobby, and would in no way be used to any commercial gain.

G.
 
Eoghan said:
Gogarburn has some great photo opportunities. I work there and i have to ask for permission to photograph it. I did ask ages ago, got permission, but didn't get round to taking any shots.

I am not defending security, but perhaps they weren't aware of your motives. I don't know if you told them why you were taking photographs but I'm guessing that as you had ignored their request to stop taking piccies they imediately thought you were up to no good. remember it is a bank afterall.

looking forward to seeing your pics though

Eoghan
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Here you go, I didn't have a lot of time due to getting told to b****r off, was having fun too...

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=53254
 
nice images...


took me a moment to recognise where the those shots were taken. I hope you didn't get hassled there!!!

Eoghan
 
They are cracking shots

but in no way do they show any sensative info

Infact the one of the bridge is NOT even in there grounds. And if it is private property and in there grounds then I DON NOT want to see the council fixing that road, as I don't pay my road tax to fix there roads.

And there is no Signs on the grounds that depict its a private property.

Mike
 
dj_myk said:
They are cracking shots

but in no way do they show any sensative info

Infact the one of the bridge is NOT even in there grounds. And if it is private property and in there grounds then I DON NOT want to see the council fixing that road, as I don't pay my road tax to fix there roads.

And there is no Signs on the grounds that depict its a private property.

Mike
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The bridge is actually a public thoroughfare since the RBS was responsible for the closure of the right turn in and out of Gogarburn although the bridge does belong to the rbs so taking pic of the bridge or actually standing on it is not trespass or whatever.
 
i would be up for it

its 2 mins from my house

Mike
 
Just want to give a heads up.

Whilst i have probably just fouled it up for all of you, I felt that as I work at Gogarburn, I should ask permission first. I asked if a group of amateur photogs could take piccies of the building either at night or during the day at a weekend and mentioned that the pics would be for personal use only, unfortunately the response was no. :bang: I could potentially foul it up for you even more by speaking directly to security about it, but if they say no, then they will definately be made more aware of your presence when you come a snapping. is it worth a shot, or should I just stop trying to be helpful?

Eoghan
 
Just got this from the man "in the know" in Edinburgh (he's the top dog in EDI for Access Rights I am led to believe)....

-------------------------------------
I’m afraid I cannot give you a definitive answer on this but hope that the following general position will assist.



Land which forms the curtilage of a commercial or industrial building is not included within access rights. This is open to some interpretation but generally is down to a reasonable assessment of the requirements of the property owners for safety, security and privacy in the immediate vicinity of the building. I would have thought however, that you would be within your rights to take photographs from any paths and tracks and land adjacent to the site which is generally accessible to and well used by the public. It would be reasonable to assume however that you could be challenged on security ground if you are taking photographs in the immediate vicinity of the buildings. Access rights under Part 1 Land Reform (Scotland) Act would be unlikely to apply in such close proximity.



The nature of the site and facility would have a bearing on what is reasonable in the circumstances and given the high profile nature of the RBS HQ and its particular security requirements I would suggest that you contact the Facilities Manager directly before taking photographs close to the buildings.



I hope that this helps to some extent.



Alan McGregor

Level C3, Waverley Court,

4 East Market Street,

Edinburgh

EH8 8BG



0131 529 7883

alan.mcgregor@edinburgh.gov.uk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary [mailto:gary@xxx.com]
Sent: 25 March 2008 09:32
To: Alan Mcgregor
Subject: Access Rights
Importance: High



Hi Alan,



Hope you can clarify something for me. I would like to use the grounds of RBS headquarters at Gogarburn as an example.



Is it within my access rights to roam the publically accessible land and take photographs with my camera? For example the RBS bridge, and the landscaped grounds out front of the HQ.



I am a very keen photographer, but am often worried about taking photos in the wrong place.



I got your contact details here:

http://www.outdooraccess-scotland.com/default.asp?PageRef=1.2.12.



Kind Regards,



Gary
 
note u might want to edit out his contact details incase he gets floods of mail to his personal account at work

Mike
 
I went to an organised photography event in a building next to RBS headquarters and we were told "under no circumstances are you to even point the camera near their building". Can only thing its for security/terrorist reasons :shrug:, shame really like you say some really great photo opportunity's there.
 
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